Migrate ISY PLM to New USB PLM on HA

[vbPhil]

Has anyone tried migrating your ISY network to HA? I don't mean using the HA ISY Integration component but actually moving the PLM from ISY to HA. My ISY PLM is serial so I've purchased a new USB PLM from Insteon and will use that with my ameriDROID N2+ HA system. My thought was to do a PLM change in ISY to the USB PLM and then plug that PLM into HA and let it discover the network. Either that or just manually move each device from ISY to HA.

One big issue is I've been using the ISY Integration so I have automations and scripts already using those Insteon devices. If they are moved from the ISY network to the HA network, it will probably break all that. Current Insteon network has 52 devices, 216 items in PLM Links Table.

[MrBill]

While I haven't done exactly what you are trying to do, I think you're on the right track.

I can tell you this much.... When Insteon went dark a year ago, my son was using Insteon with an Insteon HUB (not PLM) at this house.  I got an instance of HA up and running for him and we connected his hub.  Hub's use an IP connection instead of USB, but it's the SAME HA integration that talks to both.  Once the hub was connect to HA all we had to do was wander around and turn everything off and on once for HA to detect it.  (each device, not each load--for example both switches of a 3 ways switch pair).  Go slowly and put names in as you go, HA will name the new entities after the Insteon addresses.

You're correct your automations will break, as all the entities will be different than the entities that exist for UD integration. 

Personally... since you already have UD, I'd just keep using it.  That's what i intend to do.  It is  one more moving part tho.

[vbPhil]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

Once the hub was connect to HA all we had to do was wander around and turn everything off and on once for HA to detect it.

So that begs a question. For the case of a PLM connected to HA, I was under the impression that once HA detects the modem it will download all the links thus discovering the network. But you're saying it didn't behave that way with the Insteon Hub? I wonder then if I hook up a brand new empty PLM to HA, at the same time ISY is running the network, is HA going to be discovering a device whenever it's operated on in the ISY network? And, what if HA is connected to the ISY through the integration?

[MrBill]

No if you hook up the new PLM empty... that would be a separate Insteon network that doesn't know about the other one.

It's been a year since we did that project, there may have been some auto-discovery, but it may have been sped up by controlling devices?  I don't remember... I do remember I was sitting at his computer telling him which switches to try based on no entity and once he flipped the switch once HA would create the entities.   The PLM didn't have naming other that the Insteon address...  so another reason we were flipping switches was to figure out which device was which because the PLM doesn't know anything about the name of the device or scene... it's all just numbers until you assign a friendly name to the entities.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, vbPhil said:

So that begs a question. For the case of a PLM connected to HA, I was under the impression that once HA detects the modem it will download all the links thus discovering the network. But you're saying it didn't behave that way with the Insteon Hub? I wonder then if I hook up a brand new empty PLM to HA, at the same time ISY is running the network, is HA going to be discovering a device whenever it's operated on in the ISY network? And, what if HA is connected to the ISY through the integration?

You probably wouldn't want auto discovery of your links since you'd get device IDs vs the actual name. You would probably spend more time trying to figure out what each thing is vs just adding them manually and rebuilding your system. This is especially so since half links will be imported as well.

[vbPhil]

1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You probably wouldn't want auto discovery of your links since you'd get device IDs vs the actual name. You would probably spend more time trying to figure out what each thing is vs just adding them manually and rebuilding your system. This is especially so since half links will be imported as well.

I trust your advice. Although, I thought I would first get an ISY Topology report and then I would have the friendly name and address in a list.

I am leaning towards doing it manually one by one as time permits. My process would be to start out with some seldom used devices, delete them from ISY and HA (ISY Integration) and then add them to the new PLM/HA system. This will give me a chance to experience how HA performs with a PLM attached. Who knows I may decide not to go all the way and rather keep Polisy around for the Insteon network

[vbPhil]

I've read in forums that it is okay to have multiple PLMs and controllers in a system. I was wondering if it's also okay to have 2 PLMs plugged into the same electrical branch perhaps even in the same electric outlet?

[lilyoyo1]

57 minutes ago, vbPhil said:

I've read in forums that it is okay to have multiple PLMs and controllers in a system. I was wondering if it's also okay to have 2 PLMs plugged into the same electrical branch perhaps even in the same electric outlet?

If you know what you're doing and how to mitigate issues then you'll be fine. For years, I ran an isy, homeseer, and hub. Once I left homeseer alone, I had 2 isy's, a hub, and the Nokia hub. Now...I'm just running 2 polisy's.

Your scenario can work as all of my stuff was always kept in 1 room with the main system kept outside of that environment. The worse your setup is the more issues that you can potentially have. Unless you're well versed with insteon, I'd suggest setting your infrastructure up in a way to minimize the potential for any issues. It just comes down to your knowledge and skillset when it comes to potential issues. 

Edited April 16, 2023 by lilyoyo1

[MrBill]

13 hours ago, vbPhil said:

I've read in forums that it is okay to have multiple PLMs and controllers in a system. I was wondering if it's also okay to have 2 PLMs plugged into the same electrical branch perhaps even in the same electric outlet?

Just to be clear, I've recently told a couple people, including you, they could plug in a second PLM on a second ISY/IoX device for the purposes of testing.  Those are two separate systems.  

Incorporating two PLMs into the same network of devices (switches, modules, outlets, etc) for the purpose of having two controllers over the same devices, is a much more complicated issue. 

[brians]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:11 AM, MrBill said:

While I haven't done exactly what you are trying to do, I think you're on the right track.

I can tell you this much.... When Insteon went dark a year ago, my son was using Insteon with an Insteon HUB (not PLM) at this house.  I got an instance of HA up and running for him and we connected his hub.  Hub's use an IP connection instead of USB, but it's the SAME HA integration that talks to both.  Once the hub was connect to HA all we had to do was wander around and turn everything off and on once for HA to detect it.  (each device, not each load--for example both switches of a 3 ways switch pair).  Go slowly and put names in as you go, HA will name the new entities after the Insteon addresses.

You're correct your automations will break, as all the entities will be different than the entities that exist for UD integration. 

Personally... since you already have UD, I'd just keep using it.  That's what i intend to do.  It is  one more moving part tho.

I believe that the reason you were able to do it that way is because the HA integration for the Insteon hub looked at the pre-existing switches and pulled them into HA, much like the current UD IoX HA Integration. Setting up direct on HA with a PLM would require rebuilding the entire Insteon network. It would be no different than taking an existing PLM and trying to get it running on a stock ISY without a backup - not possible.

I am curious how Insteon works natively in HA... I heard that it does not work as good as IoX so the best way may be to keep using the integration until there is a need to do native Insteon/PLM. I believe that setting up scenes, keypadlincs etc. is far better/easier with IoX than HA native Insteon.

I am currently moving my system to HA and plan on leaving Polisy running Insteon and using the integration for now. Currently my20+ ZWave devices (moved two over so far LOL), and replaced my Node Server with equivalent integrations.

[MrBill]

15 hours ago, brians said:

I believe that the reason you were able to do it that way is because the HA integration for the Insteon hub looked at the pre-existing switches and pulled them into HA, much like the current UD IoX HA Integration. Setting up direct on HA with a PLM would require rebuilding the entire Insteon network. It would be no different than taking an existing PLM and trying to get it running on a stock ISY without a backup - not possible.

The reason I made the statement that I made is the same integration is used for the hub and the PLMs.  While possible it's different I expect it's relatively the same experience regardless of controller.

Quote

This integration adds support for integrating your INSTEON network with Home Assistant. It has been tested with all USB and serial PowerLinc Modems (PLM) including 2413U, 2448A7, 2413S and 2412S models. It has also been tested to work with the 2242 and 2245 Hubs.

 

15 hours ago, brians said:

I am curious how Insteon works natively in HA... I heard that it does not work as good as IoX so the best way may be to keep using the integration until there is a need to do native Insteon/PLM. I believe that setting up scenes, keypadlincs etc. is far better/easier with IoX than HA native Insteon.

It got a lot better after Insteon went dark a year ago, they added a lot of functionality that didn't previously exist within HA.   Personally I prefer the experience with the ISY, but you can at least adjust all the Insteon parameters from within HA now... in some cases prior to a year ago you were expected to do that within the Insteon app and just control the devices from HA.

16 hours ago, brians said:

I am currently moving my system to HA and plan on leaving Polisy running Insteon and using the integration for now. Currently my20+ ZWave devices (moved two over so far LOL), and replaced my Node Server with equivalent integrations.

Having worked with both types of installation (my son's house being Hub -> HA integration), I would still keep ISY to run Insteon.  I've moved many functions to HA, but I'll keep using ISY/IoX for Insteon.

[brians]

On 4/17/2023 at 7:20 AM, MrBill said:

The reason I made the statement that I made is the same integration is used for the hub and the PLMs.  While possible it's different I expect it's relatively the same experience regardless of controller.

 

I think I was wrong on this, been doing research on possibilities of moving Insteon to HA and the integration apparently reads out all the devices currently in a PLM... therefore if I pulled my working PLM from Polisy and plugged it into HA (I am not going to do this though) with Insteon Integration it would read all the devices. This is a bit unusual, because after working with ISY so long because it does not seem to do this and requires a local backup or a factory reset PLM to start. 

[MrBill]

3 minutes ago, brians said:

I think I was wrong on this, been doing research on possibilities of moving Insteon to HA and the integration apparently reads out all the devices currently in a PLM... therefore if I pulled my working PLM from Polisy and plugged it into HA (I am not going to do this though) with Insteon Integration it would read all the devices. This is a bit unusual, because after working with ISY so long because it does not seem to do this and requires a local backup or a factory reset PLM to start. 

The difference is quality of setup.  You can read existing links with adding a device to ISY, but you're correct I don't think ISY will watch for traffic.

[brians]

10 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The difference is quality of setup.  You can read existing links with adding a device to ISY, but you're correct I don't think ISY will watch for traffic.

Ya, the IoX HA integration works perfect therefore I don't see a reason to change it for no benefit and would be an actual downgrade in features probably. The new Insteon company should develop an official add-on or Integration for Insteon with full support.

[MrBill]

1 minute ago, brians said:

Ya, the IoX HA integration works perfect therefore I don't see a reason to change it for no benefit and would be an actual downgrade in features probably. The new Insteon company should develop an official add-on or Integration for Insteon with full support.

I doubt they will compete with their own director app.   The current Insteon tab is a very different experience that using the UD integration.