Recommended 4" recessed lights that don't flash with Insteon traffic

[auger66]

I did a major remodel almost six years ago and put all LED lights in. I have some 4" cans on keypadlinc dimmers. When the recessed can lights are dimmed, they flash bright with Insteon traffic and only Insteon traffic. You would think it's lightning if you didn't know what it was.

After all this time, I thought I would try to find a replacement. I found some nice but expensive Halo lights tonight at Home Depot to try out. They dim great, but flash even worse.

So does anyone have a suggestion for lights that don't flash? I wish I could disable powerline communication on those keypadlincs, but I don't think that is possible.

Light requirements:

• 4" gimballed and flat retrofit
• 3000K
• 90+ CRI
• dimmable to at least 10% (5% preferred)

Thanks

Edited April 18, 2023 by auger66

[matapan]

I think the easiest way to get the correct lights is to set up a test bench where you can connect a keypadlinc to a plug and run the load to the cans for test. 

There aren't any standards for dimmers and led lights to be compatible with each other, unless the manufacturer specifically tested it with their product. Of course, that usually means you are dealing with a well known product like Lutron and some large lighting manufacturer that has the $$$ to test specific dimmers like Lutron with it.

[auger66]

Thanks. I actually did that almost six years ago. Wagos were indispensable for testing (and installation.)

Current lights had good dimming, no flickering, etc. I didn't see the communication flashing until after installation.

I was hoping someone found something that works without the trial and error again.

[auger66]

Coming back to post the fix that worked for me if anyone is interested.

Someone on Reddit said he had the same problem only on keypadlincs and stated LED dimming stabilizers helped but didn't fix the problem completely. I remember reading about them on this forum last year but forgot about the post. I have 4" retrofit cans with two lights on one dimmer and four on the other.

I ordered the sample pack. The company recommends trying one yellow, then one blue, then two yellow, and lastly two blue.

On the two light circuit, I installed one yellow in one of the light housings. Fixed the problem completely. I tried the new lights I bought. Same--worked perfectly.

On the four light circuit, I tried one yellow at the keypadlinc. Slight communication flicker. Same with one blue. Removed the device.

I put the remaining yellow in one of the cans. Fixed the problem completely again.

[auger66]

Minor update now that I've lived with it a bit longer.

The camera-like, strobe light flashes are completely gone. However, I do get an occasional flicker with Insteon traffic. The minor flicker is dimmer, rather than, lightning-like.

I'm completely satisfied, but the solution doesn't 100% fix the problem. Further stabilizer experimentation could possibly yield perfect results, but I'm happy with the way it is.

[IndyMike]

Sorry, I missed your original post...

I have used the Jasco Load Bypass on my Daughters Ceiling Fan/Light combo (non-Insteon).  She installed dimmable led bulbs that did not present enough load to the fan controller.  They worked well for her installation.

Unfortunately, these are normally capacitive devices, and will absorb/bypass Insteon powerline signals (even when they are down stream from the dimmer).  Placing the devices in the can is best the wiring will present some inductance to alleviate the absorption

Another alternative for dimmable LED's is a dimmer that uses trailing edge dimming.  Not currently available in Insteon devices (we can dream), Zooz does have dimmers that are Trailing edge.  The Zooz Zen77 dimmers use a Mosfet output stage that is trailing edge.  I've used some of these on Chandeliers with the "exposed element" led bulbs.  Very nice smooth dimming throughout the range.   Not a solution for a keypadlinc replacement,  but there is rarely a on size fits all solution.

Glad your stabilizer worked.  Keep an eye out for communication degradation as you add more loads to your system.

Edited May 22, 2023 by IndyMike

[ELA]

On 5/22/2023 at 6:20 AM, IndyMike said:

I have used the Jasco Load Bypass on my Daughters Ceiling Fan/Light combo (non-Insteon).  

Unfortunately, these are normally capacitive devices, and will absorb/bypass Insteon powerline signals (even when they are down stream from the dimmer).  Placing the devices in the can is best the wiring will present some inductance to alleviate the absorption

 

Hi IndyMike,

Great information.   I had never used them and had wondered how they might dissipate the required wattage in a small package if resistive. Makes sense to use a cap. rather than a resistor. They must be a fairly large cap. to present enough of a load and thus they be a large signal sucker.

      What did you mean when you said will absorb Insteon signals even when downstream from the dimmer?   Just when the dimmer is on, is that correct?

Auger66 , Please excuse the rest of this post slightly off topic.

I have researched the subject of Flickering LEDs lights and found it  to be very common for several reasons in addition to Insteon signals.

Some people are reporting Flickering lights due to TWAC signals used in some smart power meters.  As I read up on that I found it very interesting how TWAC is distorting the 60hz sinewave at the zero cross point.   While nice for the Utility company it seems like a potential problem for so many devices expecting a "clean" zero cross signal reference.

One interesting post was from a Lutron salesman that has all Lutron dimmers in his newly constructed house, used for demos of the products he sells.   All his LED lights flicker.   Source of the issue is as of yet undetermined but the TWACs signal was discussed as the potential source.  Of course that only happens for short periods of time, at certain times of the day, when TWAC communications is active.

 

[auger66]

Flicker is one thing. My previous strobe-light effect was really annoying.

Interesting that Lutron flickers. Mine only happened/happens with Insteon powerline traffic. And only with loads connected to keypadlinc dimmers.

[IndyMike]

5 hours ago, ELA said:

Hi IndyMike,

Great information.   I had never used them and had wondered how they might dissipate the required wattage in a small package if resistive. Makes sense to use a cap. rather than a resistor. They must be a fairly large cap. to present enough of a load and thus they be a large signal sucker.

      What did you mean when you said will absorb Insteon signals even when downstream from the dimmer?   Just when the dimmer is on, is that correct?

Hello ELA,

It's been awhile... 

Yes the bypass caps are rather large.  I've seen some Lutron versions that were 10+ uF.  The Jasco caps were unlabeled and I did not measure them.  They were physically small and worked well with my Daughters up/down light fan combo.

You are correct that I was referring to Insteon loading with the dimmer on.  Even with the triac between the line and Cap there is loading.  The higher the triac output, the higher the load.

I have not heard of the TWAC smart meter signals.  I'm very surprised they upset Lutron dimmers.  Lutron has a plethora of white papers describing how they synchronize on the zero crossing for "precision" dimming.  Must be extremely frustrating for them. 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by IndyMike