Dusk / Dawn sensor with insteon

[paulbates]

I'm adding Insteon switched premise lighting to my house. I'm looking to re-create the dusk/dawn node capability of the previous gen Insteon motion sensor. 

The question: Is there advice on getting that capability sensing open/close with a photo cell and/or other parts?

Edited October 11, 2023 by paulbates

[IndyMike]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:32 PM, paulbates said:

I'm adding Insteon switched premise lighting to my house. I'm looking to re-create the dusk/dawn node capability of the previous gen Insteon motion sensor. 

The question: Is there advice on getting that capability sensing open/close with a photo cell and/or other parts?

Hi Paul,

Understand that you are trying to re-create the dusk/dawn feature.  I am not sure if you are looking for Insteon hardware or are looking at other technologies.  Also not sure what platform ISY you are using.

The Insteon MSII sensors can work, but require external power and a lot of finagling (normally accompanied by the use of bad words). 

There are several Zwave motion/temperature/humidity/light level sensors that could be added (Zwave dongle or Eisy Matter module).  I currently use Zooz ZSE40 700 and like them a lot for motion detection, temperature, and battery life.  I can't comment on the luminescence feature as I don't utilize it.  If you're interested, I could start charting it.

Wireless tags are another way to get Motion, Temperature, Light, and Open/Close information into the ISY.  I have not used them as yet.  Many forum members have and could provide guidance if this is a direction you are interested in.  Tags can be found here: Wireless Tag's.  There is also a forum topic dealing with the Tag nodeserver and integration.

Give us a bit more information on how you envision this system integration.  I'm sure this forum has the expertise to help.

IM

[elvisimprsntr]

Why not just use the time offset since dusk/dawn based on your location? Infinitely more reliable than a Rube Goldberg contraption

[IndyMike]

1 hour ago, elvisimprsntr said:

Why not just use the time offset since dusk/dawn based on your location? Infinitely more reliable than a Rube Goldberg contraption

I see that you are from Florida.  You are correct for locations that receive sunlight on a regular basis.

Both Paul and I are on the lee side of lake Michigan.  We are currently enduring the time of year that I refer to as "Perma-cloud".  Based on the current forecast, we will not see the sun until Monday.  Once we hit November, things get far worse.

It's nice to have a system that responds to current ambient light during our dark days. 

While the lake may give us clouds and snow during the winter months, it also keeps us much warmer than locations to the West (Chicago, Green Bay).  Clear days in Jan/Feb look nice - but that's when the temps plummet.

[paulbates]

@IndyMike Sorry Mike, I wasn't clear about that. In this house I'm sticking with an all Insteon network, and looking for a solution goes "switched on" when it's actually dusk outside.

I'll consider the other ways you mentioned. At my previous house I did use io_guys precursor node servers for a few years on raspberry pi's, and then his node link, and then add UDIs geofencing and a few others. That house was older and had old house problems and the ventstar stats I had and programmed in nodelink did a lot for comfort, heat and humidity.

That was all good learning, but this house is relatively new and doesn't have the old house problems. This time around I'm keeping it relatively simple and mostly marking a few virtual circuits and adding premise lighting.

@elvisimprsntr Thanks and that's sound logic. I did have a setup at my previous house that used time offsets as you're suggesting , but some days mostly due to weather it got darker earlier. The dusk/dawn sensor in the last rev Insteon sensor worked great. There was an ISY dusk dawn program that used schedules but also switched on if the dusk dawn kicked in.

I have an idea I looked at in the last few days using an Insteon embedded module and cheap lamppost 110v dusk dawn sensor. It'll either work, or not.. not to much spent if it doesn't

[paulbates]

@IndyMikeYep thanks, you covered the climate / latitude topic better. Going back to my x10 days i added a photo cell to the 10 io module.. as there were many days the schedule programming did what it was told to do, but missed the right on-time because of clouds.

I lost all the notes and emails on that from over 20 years ago about that solution. I do remember that the same circuitry setup would not work on the Insteon version of io module, and was very glad when the last gen Insteon motion sensor came out, it got it right most of the time

Edited October 12, 2023 by paulbates

[IndyMike]

23 hours ago, paulbates said:

I have an idea I looked at in the last few days using an Insteon embedded module and cheap lamppost 110v dusk dawn sensor. It'll either work, or not.. not to much spent if it doesn't

Hey Paul,

I had forgotten about the Micro Modules.  Connecting the sensor output to the sense input on the Micro Module is actually rather elegant.  You will need to watch for leakage current on the Dusk/Dawn sensor.  I've never actually measured this on my post lamps, but it's not enough to light the LED bulbs that I use.  If necessary, you could add a load to the sensor to keep the current/voltage below the sense input turn on threshold. 

Let us know how things go.

https://cache.insteon.com/documentation/2443-x22-en.pdf

[IndyMike]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:21 AM, elvisimprsntr said:

Why not just use the time offset since dusk/dawn based on your location? Infinitely more reliable than a Rube Goldberg contraption

@elvisimprsntr I apologize.  My earlier response came off as dismissive. 

I do use the location based dusk/dawn for all of my outdoor lighting.  I also use it for indoor lighting, but in conjunction with local light level measurement.  Today is another day when my local light level measurement will enable motion based lighting throughout the day. I use it for all hallways, stairs, and kitchen.

We're just in a different environment than you're accustomed to.

[dex]

 I did a Rube Goldberg-esque experiment similar to this, mostly for a daylight basement that, on dark or cloudy winter days, stays too dark even when the rest of the house gets ample ambient through windows.  I live in Oregon, and we do get a cloudy day every once in a while. ☂️

I access a personal weather station via the AmbientWeather node server (on Polisy) and then use the 'solar radiation' reading within a program to trigger "light" and "dark" responses based on an external brightness reported by the weather station.   The correlation between external brightness and internal brightness was high enough that the desirable threshold was easy to find.

The challenge:  Depending on how often you poll for a new reading, you can get a lot of off-on-off-on, which can be annoying.  I started playing with some hysteresis logic to avoid this annoying oscillation.  That made it better, but I got busy with other things and haven't perfect it, as the value wasn't quite as high for me. 

[paulbates]

@dex

Yes it seems like a simple enough requirement, but hard to get to 100% right all the time. For the old insteon motion sensor with a dudk/dawn sensor method, I had it as "on only" during a time window... Once it was on, it stayed on fot the night and didn't react to on until dawn timeframe

The either station seems good if it's close enough to the house to be the same conditions

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by paulbates

[Hoosier Daddy]

15 hours ago, dex said:

 I did a Rube Goldberg-esque experiment similar to this, mostly for a daylight basement that, on dark or cloudy winter days, stays too dark even when the rest of the house gets ample ambient through windows.  I live in Oregon, and we do get a cloudy day every once in a while. ☂️

I access a personal weather station via the AmbientWeather node server (on Polisy) and then use the 'solar radiation' reading within a program to trigger "light" and "dark" responses based on an external brightness reported by the weather station.   The correlation between external brightness and internal brightness was high enough that the desirable threshold was easy to find.

The challenge:  Depending on how often you poll for a new reading, you can get a lot of off-on-off-on, which can be annoying.  I started playing with some hysteresis logic to avoid this annoying oscillation.  That made it better, but I got busy with other things and haven't perfect it, as the value wasn't quite as high for me. 

Weather station works for me too, although I'd rather use interior light sensors to give me more flexibility regarding which rooms need the extra light. I use a Weatherflow Tempest weather station that outputs both brightness (lux) and solar (W/m2). I use two programs lines to control my 'cloudy day lights': one turns them on when lux is less than 15,000; other turns them off when lux greater than 18000.

@paulbates, please post your solution if you find one. Thanks.

[Bumbershoot]

59 minutes ago, Hoosier Daddy said:

Weather station works for me too, although I'd rather use interior light sensors to give me more flexibility regarding which rooms need the extra light. I use a Weatherflow Tempest weather station that outputs both brightness (lux) and solar (W/m2). I use two programs lines to control my 'cloudy day lights': one turns them on when lux is less than 15,000; other turns them off when lux greater than 18000.

@paulbates, please post your solution if you find one. Thanks.

This is almost the exact solution that I use.  It has been highly reliable.

[paulbates]

An Insteon Dusk/Dawn sensor using a on/off micro module and lamp post photocell survived bench testing and sample program. I'm putting it on the front porch today and see how it does and think about a project box and a final home for it... if it works

[paulbates]

Calling this done, with the exception of putting it in a project box. It's working well for those cloudy days when its dark  well before dusk.

Here is the parts list for those interested:
- 2443-222 Micro On/off module
- Solus SPC-320Z 120V Automatic Dusk to Dawn Photocell - Look that up on Amazon, $12.45 us
- 120v AC power cord with black/white leads.

Notes:
- Wire it as shown in the picture a post above. Wire the red lead from the Solus sensor to the yellow sense lead from the 2443-222. Cap the purple lead or cut it off.

You can wire it as needed in your case, including possibly fitting it in a lamp post and wiring the lamp post light to the 2434-222's load terminals, or the red lead from the sensor, whatever is easier / safer / best for wiring.

- The Solus SPC-320Z works with the 2443-222.  It's likely that the design of these sensors use triacs, could cause bleed voltage on the red line that will make it appear on all of the time to the 2443-222 or other flaky behavior. If you choose to try a different sensor you'll have to find out how that works. 

- Use the out-of-box Latching mode for the 2443-222. Double check by opening options in the ISY and making sure every option box is un-checked.

How to use:
- Use the 2443-222 as the controller for any Insteon devices you want switched on when the photocell detects dark, and/or switched off when it senses light. I'm not doing this as it switches on & off twice a day about 20 minutes apart as it decides dusk/dawn. Also, it decides on dusk about 30 minutes sooner than I like.

- ISY programs. I'm using programs, adding a delay via eISY wait commands in a program to delay the actual turn on of the lights. When the solus does its second trigger for dusk, it restarts the program and lands close enough to my desired "on" time.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by paulbates

[IndyMike]

@paulbates, Nicely done.

I'm assuming you are using a "legacy" on/off module (not the newer I3).  Nice wire solution to the dusk/dawn issue.

Thanks for updating,

IM

[paulbates]

@IndyMike AFAIK, there is no new version of the micro modules.