Lutron HA Control Solutions?

[DAlter01]

I just bought a house that has a 2016 era Lutron RadioRA2 system of about 50 devices, a couple repeaters, and 8 keypads that control about 1/2 the lighting and fans in the house.  It is a "dumb" lighting system in that it is just button control of the scenes it has and there isn't any HA if/then logic, voice control, etc.  I am leaving a house that has a highly automated Insteon house (over 200 devices) controlled by an ISY994i where I rarely have to touch a switch and it uses motion sensors, time of day/sunset offset, and voice control through Alexa to control my scenes with a lot of if/then programming.  It is a highly reliable system and makes for convenient living.  I did the install and programming a few years ago but my knowledge is stale as I haven't stayed current with technology changes and have forgotten half of what I learned implementing and programming the system.

My current belief is the best path to automate the house is to finish the install of Lutron devices with RA2/3 hardware for the switchgear, repeaters, and keypads and do any upgrades that may be necessary to make the RA2 system front end systems work with the RA3.  But, the question becomes one of what HA logic system to use.  I'm familiar with ISY994i and it seems installing the new EISY to control Lutron is probably a viable path forward.   However, it sounds like Lutron can work with other HA logic systems also that may, or may not, be a good control solution.  And, maybe even Lutron's native logic system is sophiscticated enough now to allow good automation with the RA3 system using geofence and time of day/sunset offset for scene toggling and voice integration with Alexa or some other system.

I will not likely want to integrate more systems than lighting and ceiling fans into my HA system as my alarm and thermostat systems already have good standalone solutions that seem sufficient for my purposes.  I might attempt control of the alarm, thermostat, or some other systems (Sonos) but this is going to be a lighting control automation and anything else that gets controlled is of zero consideration on choosing the best way to control the lighting. 

I don't mind taking the Lutron class(s) to allow access to their programming functions and I may even be fine with having a Lutron integrator do the bulk of the heavy lifting on programming the system if the Lutron RA2/3 logic systems are sophisticated enough to do a fair amount of if/then programming.  I believe that back when I did the Insteon/ISY install a few years ago that RA2 native software was lacking in its sophistication and I would have needed Homeworks.  Though, I may be wrong on that memory.

Can some of the HA pros on the forum provide a little guidance on what might be a good path (or path options) to consider as i determine how to integrate the homes lighting control?

[xlurkr]

I'm not a pro, but I do have a suggestion.  If you want a good DIY solution for controlling your Lutron lighting, I can heartily recommend adding a Hubitat hub.  It's only about $150, has no mandatory recurring fees, and can be 100% local after setup if you want.  A couple of its developers have DIY Lutron RA2 lighting in their own houses, so they've added a lot of great functionality for it.  And there's a nodeserver for Hubitat that will allow you to bring everything into ISY as nodes, so you can automate things the way you're used to.  The Hubitat can also support multiple hubs and can therefore mix and match RA2 and Caseta devices.

 

The only caveat is that Hubitat, like most smaller players, doesn't have access to the LEAP security in the new RA3 hub.  Some others do, like Home Assistant, but I think it's based on a reverse-engineering of LEAP that could break at some point?  Not sure.

-Tom

[bpwwer]

I believe you can integrate RA3 with an existing RA2 system but you may have issues integrating with anything else. 

RA2 uses telnet and not LEAP to integrate with third party controllers.  RA3 uses LEAP and not telnet.

There was a an ISY plug-in (node server) for RA2 but that's no longer supported.  There is a eisy plug-in for Caseta which may work with some RA3 devices.  But that's about it for eisy integration with Lutron.

The Home Assistant and the eisy plug-in both use the same reverse engineered library for integration with Caseta/RA3.  So it's possible that could break but not very likely as Lutron has always tried to maintain compatibility and breaking the reverse engineered library would also likely break a lot of systems in the field.

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

I believe you can integrate RA3 with an existing RA2 system but you may have issues integrating with anything else. 

RA2 uses telnet and not LEAP to integrate with third party controllers.  RA3 uses LEAP and not telnet.

There was a an ISY plug-in (node server) for RA2 but that's no longer supported.  There is a eisy plug-in for Caseta which may work with some RA3 devices.  But that's about it for eisy integration with Lutron.

The Home Assistant and the eisy plug-in both use the same reverse engineered library for integration with Caseta/RA3.  So it's possible that could break but not very likely as Lutron has always tried to maintain compatibility and breaking the reverse engineered library would also likely break a lot of systems in the field.

Good point on the different technologies.  Lutron makes them compatible with each other natively but that doesn't mean an integration can work with both systems operating seemlessly as one.  And, thanks for letting me know the ISY platforms are not going to be an option.  I figured that was my go to solution as I have some experience with programming within it.  Darn.

Do you know anything about the new native Lutron programming options in RA3?  I understand it is more capable than what could be done with RA2 but RA2 couldn't do much so doing "more" isn't necessarily saying much.

[DAlter01]

9 hours ago, xlurkr said:

I'm not a pro, but I do have a suggestion.  If you want a good DIY solution for controlling your Lutron lighting, I can heartily recommend adding a Hubitat hub.  It's only about $150, has no mandatory recurring fees, and can be 100% local after setup if you want.  A couple of its developers have DIY Lutron RA2 lighting in their own houses, so they've added a lot of great functionality for it.  And there's a nodeserver for Hubitat that will allow you to bring everything into ISY as nodes, so you can automate things the way you're used to.  The Hubitat can also support multiple hubs and can therefore mix and match RA2 and Caseta devices.

 

The only caveat is that Hubitat, like most smaller players, doesn't have access to the LEAP security in the new RA3 hub.  Some others do, like Home Assistant, but I think it's based on a reverse-engineering of LEAP that could break at some point?  Not sure.

-Tom

Thanks.  I will likely want to us RA3 for any new equipment to make it a little more future proof and take advantage of the increased device count within RA3.  There is a fair chance I'll go above the RA2 lmit which I think is 200 devices if my memory serves me correctly from several years ago.  After getting your comment I looked at Home Assistant and on the surface it looks like it might do what I want.  Though, based on what @bpwwer  mentions with the use of different technologies between RA2 and RA3, it may not work, or it might not work as well as one might hope.

[xlurkr]

I'd bet that Home Assistant can also support multiple Lutron repeaters, just like Hubitat can.  If so, you could support your existing RA2 (even beyond 200; that limit is for two (max) repeaters in the Lutron software) and add everything new as RA3.

-Tom

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, xlurkr said:

I'd bet that Home Assistant can also support multiple Lutron repeaters, just like Hubitat can.  If so, you could support your existing RA2 (even beyond 200; that limit is for two (max) repeaters in the Lutron software) and add everything new as RA3.

-Tom

I'm going to research that further.  RTI may also be a good logic system for it.  Though, I am hopeful that Lutron itself has sufficient programming options for if/then lighting control.  I did learn that companion dimmers in Lutron do not count against the 200 device limit.  With this benefit, I do not expect to approach the 200 device limit.  Many of my devices will end up being companions.

[bpwwer]

I agree with what @xlurkr says about Home Assistant so it's worth checking into.

While it may be possible to convert the PG2 RA2 node server to PG3, it's hard to support without an RA2 setup.  I only have a Caseta bridge and Caseta devices, no RA2 or RA3 stuff.

[xlurkr]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

Though, I am hopeful that Lutron itself has sufficient programming options for if/then lighting control.

Lutron's software offers few options for automation.  They have timeclocks and vacation/holiday modes and motion sensors and garage opener controllers, but that's about it.  That's why everybody controls it with another hub or software solution, or at least voice assistants, which increasingly have their own automation.

-Tom

[DAlter01]

19 hours ago, bpwwer said:

I believe you can integrate RA3 with an existing RA2 system but you may have issues integrating with anything else. 

RA2 uses telnet and not LEAP to integrate with third party controllers.  RA3 uses LEAP and not telnet.

There was a an ISY plug-in (node server) for RA2 but that's no longer supported.  There is a eisy plug-in for Caseta which may work with some RA3 devices.  But that's about it for eisy integration with Lutron.

The Home Assistant and the eisy plug-in both use the same reverse engineered library for integration with Caseta/RA3.  So it's possible that could break but not very likely as Lutron has always tried to maintain compatibility and breaking the reverse engineered library would also likely break a lot of systems in the field.

So, I did learn that when converting to RA3, you eliminate the processor and bridge (telnet) for RA2 and replace it with the RA3 processor which has its own built-in bridge (LEAP).  So, it will be 100% LEAP.  The telnet aspect of RA2 is completly eliminated.  It becomes an RA3 system.  The RA2 part is the processor and bridge and those items are eliminated and the rest of it is just switchgear which is using their clear connect RF system to communicate between the switchgear and the RA3 (or previous RA2) processor.  That clears up the path for integration with an outside logic system as long as that logic system can communicate with Lutron's LEAP API.  There are a few legacy devices that are not RA3 compatible but regular wall switches, motions, drapes, companions, all of that is compatible.  

[DAlter01]

29 minutes ago, xlurkr said:

Lutron's software offers few options for automation.  They have timeclocks and vacation/holiday modes and motion sensors and garage opener controllers, but that's about it.  That's why everybody controls it with another hub or software solution, or at least voice assistants, which increasingly have their own automation.

-Tom

Was afraid of that.  Thanks

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

I agree with what @xlurkr says about Home Assistant so it's worth checking into.

While it may be possible to convert the PG2 RA2 node server to PG3, it's hard to support without an RA2 setup.  I only have a Caseta bridge and Caseta devices, no RA2 or RA3 stuff.

It seems I'll need to find that I need to source a good logic system for RA3 using LEAP ....... assuming Lutron's expanded RA3 programming is insufficient.  Probably the first place to start is to definitively know how capable the RA3 programming has become.  I know it is expanded from RA2.  But, once someone has had a fairly robust HA logic system with the ISY software, it gets a little hard to settle for something less.

[xlurkr]

1 hour ago, DAlter01 said:

So, I did learn that when converting to RA3, you eliminate the processor and bridge (telnet) for RA2 and replace it with the RA3 processor which has its own built-in bridge (LEAP).

I can imagine an installer would typically propose this, if most or all of the gear in place is compatible with the RA3 processor.  But you could probably also insist on the installer only adding new ClearConnect Type X devices (if any) to the RA3 processor.  I'm not sure that would buy you anything, though, if you want to automate it all with a single solution.

btw, I don't have any experience with the RA3 processor or the software to program on it, so everything I'm saying with any certainty pertains to RA2, its repeater, and Inclusive software.

-Tom

[bpwwer]

7 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

It seems I'll need to find that I need to source a good logic system for RA3 using LEAP ....... assuming Lutron's expanded RA3 programming is insufficient.  Probably the first place to start is to definitively know how capable the RA3 programming has become.  I know it is expanded from RA2.  But, once someone has had a fairly robust HA logic system with the ISY software, it gets a little hard to settle for something less.

The PG3 Caseta plug-in for eisy/Polisy may work with RA3.  As I said before the library that it uses does have support for RA3, but I don't have a processor or any RA3 specific devices to test with.  The plug-in does try to provide generic support for devices it doesn't have identified support for so most non-caseta devices should fall into that category.  It also tries to provide enough information about those devices so that I can then add specific support for them.

There is a trial period where you can try the plug-in. If it seems like it might work for you, I'm willing to work with you to add the RA2/RA3 devices. You would need to migrate from the ISY to a Polisy or eisy so that may not be something you want to do if you're not sure you want to stick with the UDI ecosystem.

[DAlter01]

1 hour ago, bpwwer said:

The PG3 Caseta plug-in for eisy/Polisy may work with RA3.  As I said before the library that it uses does have support for RA3, but I don't have a processor or any RA3 specific devices to test with.  The plug-in does try to provide generic support for devices it doesn't have identified support for so most non-caseta devices should fall into that category.  It also tries to provide enough information about those devices so that I can then add specific support for them.

There is a trial period where you can try the plug-in. If it seems like it might work for you, I'm willing to work with you to add the RA2/RA3 devices. You would need to migrate from the ISY to a Polisy or eisy so that may not be something you want to do if you're not sure you want to stick with the UDI ecosystem.

Thank you.  This is a new house that has an existing Lutron system but no ISY device or other logic system.  My prior house has the ISY994i  I was/am hoping to use an ISY based platform for the logic since I'm reasonably proficient in programming it.  But, I haven't yet picked a logic system.  I think I'll explore the native Lutron RA3 logic systems first and then if that isn't sufficient figure out a new solution.  

 

[lilyoyo1]

10 hours ago, DAlter01 said:

Thank you.  This is a new house that has an existing Lutron system but no ISY device or other logic system.  My prior house has the ISY994i  I was/am hoping to use an ISY based platform for the logic since I'm reasonably proficient in programming it.  But, I haven't yet picked a logic system.  I think I'll explore the native Lutron RA3 logic systems first and then if that isn't sufficient figure out a new solution.  

 

Ra3 is a basic control system. Outside of simple timers, there isn't any logic. I use mine with Control 4. The next house I do with ra 3, I do plan on seeing if the lutron nodeserver works with it out of curiosity

[bpwwer]

Someday I'll purchase a RA3 processes and some devices so that I can make sure the plug-in works with it. But I don't know when yet.

[xlurkr]

Last night I finished the training for RA3 and downloaded the Designer software.  Sure enough, it still lacks sophisticated logic programming.

-Tom

[DAlter01]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:46 AM, xlurkr said:

Last night I finished the training for RA3 and downloaded the Designer software.  Sure enough, it still lacks sophisticated logic programming.

-Tom

Thank you Tom.  Was afraid of that.

[lilyoyo1]

On 11/12/2023 at 8:18 PM, bpwwer said:

The PG3 Caseta plug-in for eisy/Polisy may work with RA3.  As I said before the library that it uses does have support for RA3, but I don't have a processor or any RA3 specific devices to test with.  The plug-in does try to provide generic support for devices it doesn't have identified support for so most non-caseta devices should fall into that category.  It also tries to provide enough information about those devices so that I can then add specific support for them.

There is a trial period where you can try the plug-in. If it seems like it might work for you, I'm willing to work with you to add the RA2/RA3 devices. You would need to migrate from the ISY to a Polisy or eisy so that may not be something you want to do if you're not sure you want to stick with the UDI ecosystem.

@bpwwer, I just wanted to let you know that the nodeserver doesn't work with Ra3. Once the IP address was set and button pushed, the notice disappeared but no nodes showed up. I clicked discover but nothing shows up either.

This is on Polisy 5.7.1 and PG3x 3.2.17. I've downloaded the log if you want me to send it to you.

Edited January 10 by lilyoyo1

[bpwwer]

Sure, PM me the log.  I might just be something simple that I need to change.