Motion Sensors Flashing

[mlennox]

I have a number of insteon motion sensors with my setup, not linked to any other devices, I only use them in ISY-99 programs. For some reason I always see the motion sensor flash multiple times after sensing motion, which I've read in the manual indicates no response from linked devices. ISY is receiving the on/off signals just fine from the sensors, and programs are running properly. I've got a dual-band PLM, 2 dual-band access points and 3 dual-band lamplincs distributed throughout the house, so communication distance is not an issue.

 

Why are the sensors indicating no response?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello mlennox,

 

If ISY is the only device to which your Motion Sensors are linked, then the problem is that the PLM is probably not sending the ACK to your Motion Sensor in a timely manner. Sometimes, this is caused by too many Access Points and other times it's simply because there is too much distance between the PLM and the motion sensor.

 

Again, this is the case if and only if ISY is the only device linked to your motion sensor.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[mlennox]

Correct, ISY is the only device linked to the motion sensors. I'm finding that it's much easier and more flexible to handle motion sensor activity through ISY programs.

 

If I were to disable the motion sensor LED by shorting out jumper #2, would the flashing go away?

[oberkc]

If I were to disable the motion sensor LED by shorting out jumper #2, would the flashing go away?

 

I fear you may be missing the bigger picture here. The flashing LED is, apparently, an indication of communication problems between the motion sensor and PLM. While you may be able to disable the flashing LED (a little bit of black tape may also work), I don't believe that would have any positive impact on the actual communication. The result could be failure of the ISY to respond to sensed motion. I recomment investigating the source of your communication problems.

[mlennox]

I fear you may be missing the bigger picture here. The flashing LED is, apparently, an indication of communication problems between the motion sensor and PLM. While you may be able to disable the flashing LED (a little bit of black tape may also work), I don't believe that would have any positive impact on the actual communication. The result could be failure of the ISY to respond to sensed motion. I recomment investigating the source of your communication problems.

 

As I stated in the first post, ISY is getting the motion sensing signals 100% of the time. I've got several dual-band access points in very close proximity to the motion sensors.

 

I believe this is a false indication from the motion sensor because I don't have any other linked devices other than the ISY.

[TJF1960]

If I were to disable the motion sensor LED by shorting out jumper #2, would the flashing go away?

 

No, it will not disable the warning flashes, it will just disable the normal motion sense flashes.

 

Tim

[IndyMike]

A "double flash" from the motion sensor is it's method of indicating a low battery.

[mlennox]

A "double flash" from the motion sensor is it's method of indicating a low battery.

 

It's not a double flash, it's a longer rapid flashing after sensing motion.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi mlennox,

 

I suggest resetting the motion sensor and using Restore from the ISY to replace the links. I think somewhere along the line the MS got linked to something else.

 

Remember to wait ~5 minutes after the reset before performing the Restore.

 

Rand

[oberkc]

I've got several dual-band access points in very close proximity to the motion sensors.

 

I went through a period of communication difficulties. My PLM was, like most, plugged into an outlet close to the one used by my computer equipment. Even if I plugged an access point on top of my PLM, and had access points everywhere else, I could experience communication problems. It was not until I added a filter to the computer equipment (along with some other remedies) that I was able to get things under control. Point being...dual-mode devices, including a dual mode PLM, does not necessarily guarantee problem-free communication. Not, at least, if my experience is accurate.

 

You may also be currently experiencing high reliability between your motion sensor and PLM, but I am concerned that the flashing motion sensor is a predictor of future problems. I take all flashing insteon devices seriously and try to improve the communication environment whenever I can. Hopefully, you won't have these problems, but I think it is worth a little effort to help ensure that you don't.

 

Of course, it may be one of the other problems suggested by some of the others.

[mlennox]

Hi mlennox,

 

I suggest resetting the motion sensor and using Restore from the ISY to replace the links. I think somewhere along the line the MS got linked to something else.

 

Remember to wait ~5 minutes after the reset before performing the Restore.

 

Rand

 

Thanks Rand,

 

I actually did try a reset on the motion sensors, though I did not wait 5 minutes before doing a restore. What does the 5 minute wait accomplish?

[mlennox]

You may also be currently experiencing high reliability between your motion sensor and PLM, but I am concerned that the flashing motion sensor is a predictor of future problems. I take all flashing insteon devices seriously and try to improve the communication environment whenever I can. Hopefully, you won't have these problems, but I think it is worth a little effort to help ensure that you don't.

 

Of course, it may be one of the other problems suggested by some of the others.

 

Now that I know a few more things about Insteon reliability, I'm going to take some proactive measures to improve communications, the first of which is to move my PLM right next to the panel on a dedicated circuit. Right now I've got it in the attic on a circuit shared with my air handler, ISY and wireless-n router.

[IndyMike]

Hello mlennox,

 

If the motion sensor reset does not work, we can hopefully assume there are no phantom links in the device.

 

Since your ISY is correctly hearing the motion sensor, it may be that the motion sensor isn't hearing the RF response.

 

How could that be with 6 transmitters in the house? It's possible that with 6 transmitters you're getting interference. While I've never seen this, I've also never had more than two transmitters.

 

Here's the theory - When your motion sensor transmits, all of your RF devices listen and then put the Insteon single on the powerline at the next zero crossing. The communication is at 130 Khz and, given that all of the devices are synchronized by the zero crossing, minimal interference occurs (hopefully).

 

Flipping things around - When the PLM transmitts back to the motion sensor you have 6 devices generating a RF carrier at 904 Mhz. Small variations in the sensed zero crossing reference, that don't matter at 130 Khz powerline frequency, can be a big deal at 904 Mhz. Shmarthome does have a number of things they do to minimize this possibility, but nonetheless, there is a chance of interference.

 

Try testing -

Option 1) Move 1 RF device close to the motion sensor and re-try. By moving one transmitter "close" it will hopefully become dominant and swamp out the other signals.

Option 2) unplug all but 1 (or two) transmitters (somewhat invasive). Try to make sure that you're still coupled across your phases (or operating on one phase) when doing this.

 

Sorry for making you a test case, but that is my nature.

 

IM

[mlennox]

Indirectly I've already done test #2 since until 4 days ago I was running with only the PLM and no other dual-band access points.

 

I've moved the ISY right next to the panel on its own circuit, and I think this has improved the situation. Haven't seen a rapid flashing since.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi mlennox,

 

Thanks so very much for the update. Now, this brings a question for me: with the number of dual band devices you have, why wouldn't the signal get to the PLM in the first place?

 

Of course, this is not a question addressed to you but to everyone else with many dual band devices: do you experience communication errors with your RF devices as described by mlennox?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[mlennox]

After putting the PLM closer to the panel, one of my motion sensors stopped the rapid flashing, however one of them was still doing it.

 

For the one still doing it, I did a factory reset, but I did not do the "restore device" command from ISY.

 

It is now working flawlessly with no rapid flashing.

 

So the question is, if I have no other devices linked to the motion sensors, do I need to bother with the "Restore" command? Does the ISY or PLM get "linked" to the motion sensor?

[Sub-Routine]

Hi mlennox,

 

Yes, there are links between the PLM and motion sensor.

 

Resetting the MS deletes the links in the MS, but not the links in the PLM. So the PLM can still 'hear' the MS.

 

I am not sure if you will still be able to use the Set Options feature of the ISY if the MS doesn't have links to the PLM.

 

Some devices do not broadcast group commands if there are no links in the device, but apparently the MS does.

 

Rand

 

After putting the PLM closer to the panel, one of my motion sensors stopped the rapid flashing, however one of them was still doing it.

 

For the one still doing it, I did a factory reset, but I did not do the "restore device" command from ISY.

 

It is now working flawlessly with no rapid flashing.

 

So the question is, if I have no other devices linked to the motion sensors, do I need to bother with the "Restore" command? Does the ISY or PLM get "linked" to the motion sensor?

[IndyMike]

Hi mlennox,

 

Sorry if I'm appearing dense - I want to make sure I understand the symptoms.

 

Indirectly I've already done test #2 since until 4 days ago I was running with only the PLM and no other dual-band access points.

 

Please confirm or correct the following:

 

1) Prior to 4 days ago (prior to the addition of the dual-band units) - You weren't having any issues with the multiple flashes?

 

2) After adding the dual-band units - the multiple flashes developed, but the PLM registered the motion sensor triggers correctly.

 

I've moved the ISY right next to the panel on its own circuit, and I think this has improved the situation. Haven't seen a rapid flashing since.

 

3) Are the dual-band units still installed?

 

4) If yes to #3, is the PLM now closer to your motion sensor?

 

5) When you re-located the PLM, did it switch to the opposite phase?

 

6) Do you have a passive coupler in your panel?

 

 

Sorry for all the questions. I'm still trying to figure out whether this is a RF or powerline problem.

 

IM

[mlennox]

Hi mlennox,

Sorry if I'm appearing dense - I want to make sure I understand the symptoms.

 

Hey IndyMike, I think it will be better if I try and explain the timeline of events in more detail. If something doesn't make sense after you read this, let me know.

 

I have 3 motion sensors (master bathroom, kitchen and outside of the garage. My initial setup had the PLM centrally located inside a mechanical shaft on a circuit shared with ISY and my linksys wireless-N router. The PLM was closest to the kitchen sensor.

 

I have had a passive phase coupler wired beside the panel to a dedicated DP 15A breaker from day one.

 

With this setup, the master bathroom sensor would flash all the time, but the signal was getting through just fine to ISY. The kitchen sensor would flash some of the time, but the signal was getting through just fine to ISY. The garage sensor would flash all the time but the signal was NEVER getting through to ISY (it was clearly out of range having to penetrate 2 concrete walls).

 

I tried moving the PLM, ISY and Linksys router up into the attic on a different circuit, which resulted in no change of behaviour.

 

 

I then installed 5 additional dual-band devices (2 access points and 3 dual-band lamplincs). 2 of the lamplincs were very close to the master bathroom sensor, the other lamplinc and one of the access points were very close to the kitchen sensor, and the other access point was in the garage close to the outdoor sensor.

 

The only thing that changed after adding the dual-band devices is that the outdoor sensor stopped flashing and its signal was getting through to ISY just fine (problem solved).

 

I then decided to move the ISY and PLM down into the basement mechanical room, with the ISY on one circuit and the PLM on it's own dedicated circuit right next to the panel. I left the Linksys router up in the attic and ran a long cat5 cable down the shaft to connect.

 

This seems to have resulted in the kitchen sensor no longer flashing, but the bathroom one was still flashing all the time.

 

I then did a factory reset on the bathroom sensor followed by a "RESTORE DEVICE" command in ISY. Still had the flashing.

 

Finally, I did a factory reset on the bathroom sensor WITHOUT doing the restore. Result is no flashing ever, and the signal is getting through 100% of the time.

 

So that's where I'm at. The system seems to be working flawlessly, but I'm not sure what this all means.

[mlennox]

Resetting the MS deletes the links in the MS, but not the links in the PLM. So the PLM can still 'hear' the MS.

 

So how do I delete the PLM links in order to start from scratch?

[Sub-Routine]

Delete the MS from the ISY.

 

So how do I delete the PLM links in order to start from scratch?

[IndyMike]

Hello mlennox,

 

I'm sorry, but I somehow missed your response earlier. Thank you for taking the time to detail your configuration changes.

 

It sounds as if you had multiple problems. Those are normally the most fun to solve.

 

1) As you already surmised, your garage sensor was simply out of range. You solved this with the addition of the dual band devices.

 

2) Your Kitchen sensor began functioning when you separated the PLM/ISY from the router. This would imply that the router was generating noise and preventing the PLM from broadcasting to the MS. The ISY does generate network traffic when the in response to Insteon (at least mine does)..

 

The problem is, your router operates at 2.4 Ghz and the PLM is at 900 Mhz - they shouldn't interfere.

 

The other option would be that the router was generating Powerline noise that the PLM was interpreting as X10. This could hold off the communication long enough for the MS to time out waiting for a response.

 

If this were the case, I couldn't explain how the garage sensor operated properly.

 

Sorry - no good explanations from this end.

 

3) Your bathroom sensor was corrected by a factory reset (no restore). This implies that you had another device linked at one time and both the ISY and MS remembered it. If the motion sensor is not linked to anything but the isy, it's table should look like the following. The links define the MS as a controller (to the PLM) for the sensor, night/day, and battery. My PLM is at the 0C.A8.B4 address.