Is there general agreement on where to invest going forward re: I3, Zwave, Zigbee, Matter

[SLP]

I have about 100 Insteon devices on ISY994. I purchased an eisy w/zmatter dongle. My Insteon devices continue to fall (slowly) and I was wondering if the more experienced users have settled on a going-forward platform. I get eisy supports multiple worlds, and Matter is in theory 'the future,' but I'm looking for a reality view. Most of my platform is wired in wall plugs, switches, sensors. Matter still seems like it's running behind the promise, with view devices, Zigbee seems like it's go it's own set of problems, and I keep ending up at z-wave, but candidly after the rock solid, 100% connection rate of Insteon, my initial experiences with Z-wave world suggest fairly limited communication range, even with repeaters and a number of near-by devices to try to experience a fully deployed platform.

Any advice for me ?

 

[oberkc]

I don't know about others, but my plans are to stay with Insteon, so long as they are available.  Yes, I have some hue lights, twinkly lights, and z-wave devices, but these are for specific and limited use cases for me.  I am less impressed with Z-wave than I had hoped.

[Andy P]

I tried to go all in with zwave with a variety of devices from zooz, aeotec, ge, etc. I got incredible frustrated with linking and reliability of devices and have since bought insteon devices to replace about 80% of the zwave stuff I had installed. I also tried to go with lutron with the lutron pro hub. That was a lot different from z-wave in that it is dead simple and completely reliable. But the automation flexibility is not there so I replaced the lutron dimmers with I3 dimmers.

So, yeah, I am sticking with Insteon.

[dbuss]

40 minutes ago, oberkc said:

I don't know about others, but my plans are to stay with Insteon, so long as they are available.  Yes, I have some hue lights, twinkly lights, and z-wave devices, but these are for specific and limited use cases for me.  I am less impressed with Z-wave than I had hoped.

I'm pretty much with you @oberkc. I like the consistency of Insteon that I don't see in other protocols. With Insteon being available and Eisy supporting other protocols natively or through plug-ins, I'm happy where I am. I installed an Eisy in my daughter's house last week and will be installing an Eisy in my son's this week.

[lilyoyo1]

12 hours ago, SLP said:

I have about 100 Insteon devices on ISY994. I purchased an eisy w/zmatter dongle. My Insteon devices continue to fall (slowly) and I was wondering if the more experienced users have settled on a going-forward platform. I get eisy supports multiple worlds, and Matter is in theory 'the future,' but I'm looking for a reality view. Most of my platform is wired in wall plugs, switches, sensors. Matter still seems like it's running behind the promise, with view devices, Zigbee seems like it's go it's own set of problems, and I keep ending up at z-wave, but candidly after the rock solid, 100% connection rate of Insteon, my initial experiences with Z-wave world suggest fairly limited communication range, even with repeaters and a number of near-by devices to try to experience a fully deployed platform.

Any advice for me ?

 

I've swapped out to RA3 with Control 4. However, If I were to go back, I would use Insteon I3 devices with EISY. While some of the devices I use are Matter compatible, I really have no interest in using Matter itself at this time. Im ok with zwave sensors, doorlocks, and outlets; but would stay away from the rest of their lighting products as I feel they are highly inferior to Insteon (especially I3 devices). If Insteon's future is a concern, I would buy extra for backup and call it a day. 

[JTsao]

1 hour ago, Andy P said:

I tried to go all in with zwave with a variety of devices from zooz, aeotec, ge, etc. I got incredible frustrated with linking and reliability of devices and have since bought insteon devices to replace about 80% of the zwave stuff I had installed. I also tried to go with lutron with the lutron pro hub. That was a lot different from z-wave in that it is dead simple and completely reliable. But the automation flexibility is not there so I replaced the lutron dimmers with I3 dimmers.

So, yeah, I am sticking with Insteon.

I did the same with a home remodel - initially I installed all Zooz Z-wave switches and have since replaced most of it with Insteon.

[kzboray]

For lighting Insteon is still king, particularly due to the way it handles scenes for multi switch circuits, and it's ability to send signals both via the AC line and OTA. There is a caveat to this because it sends the signal at the same zero point on the AC cycle and noise can be a problem.

If you have a device or devices on a particular leg of your homes electrical lines; something as simple as a noisy wall wart. This can cause signal degradation that can be hard to track down. The positive here is that when you find the device causing the noise and eliminate it with prejudice your problems go away completely.

Also as compared to Z-Wave a fully meshed Insteon deployment seems to be much better at getting signals to out laying regions of a home. i.e. the backyard lighting, detached garages, etc

If it's available from Insteon and I am working in an Insteon home then that's my first choice for what ever is needed from wall outlets to garage door openers.

I avoid Z-wave explicitly for lighting due to it's many issues with creating scenes. Each manufacturers implementation is different and even from the same manufacturer different products can behave differently. I believe in the Z-wave 800 there have been some changes to "associations" (scenes) that attempts to address this, but it's not robust and still needs changes to be as easy to use as Insteon.

There are single case situations where Z-wave or other technologies will be a better fit. Z-wave LR (Long Range) is an example of that. If you have a gate that's a quarter mile from the house, Z-wave LR would be my first choice for that controller. Obviously there will be other isolated situations that require you to become creative, but for lighting I'd stick with Insteon.

Edited December 18, 2023 by kzboray

[paulbates]

After selling my last house of 20 years with the ISY and Insteon, I've started again this fall with a new-to-me house with an eisy and Insteon for all the reasons you mentioned. The eisy lets you integrate all of them if you choose to and be a flexible, adaptable choice for zwave, zigbee... matter,etc.. and whatever else comes along. 

Another factor for me is not mixing and matching different looking and even functioning switch packaging for the family/occupants.. it's a switch and should be consistent and easy to use. 

All solutions come with the opportunity cost of that choice; you'll get the pluses and you'll accept the minuses each technology choice comes with. 

The consistency and operation of Insteon makes it an easy choice, and per @lilyoyo, the new i3 devices are attractive without looking techy, clicky, they work nicely and flexibly without drawing attention to themselves.

[balli]

I wonder if the "new" Insteon devices are built with decent capacitors?  I have 25 keypadlinc controllers in the house of early Insteon vintage and they're horribly unreliable.  Thankfully ISY is dead reliable.  Every time the power fails (which is a lot), a few of them manage to lose their brains and need to be factory reset and restored.  I just bought a batch of 5 new ones to replace the worst of the lot, but I hate to think of this as a forever thing.   I've probably got 10 of the original batch that have hard failed at this point (along with a box full of switchlincs whose paddles failed).  I'm really fearful of selling this house.  I wanted a clean look without huge banks of switches, so many circuits are controlled by keypadlincs talking to switchlincs mounted in the basement.  All good until the keypadlinc fails and there is no easy way to control the lights.  Thankfully Alexa can usually still talk to the hidden keypadlincs, but this certainly isn't a turnkey solution to pass onto a new owner.  The thought of a 6-7 gang of switches in the kitchen makes me ill and I can't imagine the implications of 3-way switches.

 

Oh, one positive thing....  I just bought an eisy with the ZMatter USB dongle and it's 10x more reliable that the old ISY z-wave and the Homeseer stuff.

Edited December 19, 2023 by balli

[matapan]

If you're asking how to future proof your install, consider this:

1. Are the Insteon devices failing of a certain age and version? Have the newer ones been more reliable for you?

2. After reviewing the landscape of alternatives available now, do you see anything promising that is worth the cost and effort of migrating?

My take on existing technology and how it will be incorporated into some new and amorphous, yet to be fully designed standard and associated products is that the current product landscape outside of Insteon all have their own problems. I personally don't see anything that jumps out as being worthwhile to drop your Insteon investment. Unless you're investing in some pricey and closed system like Lutron, I don't see any system out there that is fully qualified and free of road bumps and road blocks.

The current trend is to consolidate or aggregate disparate protocols under a single platform or application so that everyone plays nice with each other. I think the best way to future proof given this reality is to see which platform does the best job of aggregating the ecosystem of devices you have and plan to have.

I don't own an eisy, but that seems to be the approach they are taking as well for future proofing.

[matapan]

Perhaps someone with great hardware knowledge can answer this question:

1. What is the rated lifespan of Lutron branded switches? I personally have seen none fail in the 4-5 installations I've seen over 20 years.  Personal anecdotes can't be used to generalize product reliability.

2. If the answer to #1 is a very long time, how are their switches engineered to last that long?

3. is the design of the Insteon switches inherently good, and the short lifespan of early assemblies due to low quality parts used in the switches? Or, is it more than that? In other words, will a really good set of electrolytic capacitors and contact switches make for a high quality, reliable switch?

Just asking. I believe this is the question that every Insteon setup owner will be asking.

[RPerrault]

here is the correct answer 

finances allowing - and assuming you like diy solutions - hang in with insteon until we have a chance to see what matter devices will do

then - switch controllers and migrate to matter

all these node servers are one beer truck away from leaving us without support - and its doubtful that any matter controller will support insteon - except maybe homeseer

 

[lilyoyo1]

13 hours ago, matapan said:

What is the rated lifespan of Lutron branded switches? I personally have seen none fail in the 4-5 installations I've seen over 20 years.  Personal anecdotes can't be used to generalize product reliability.

Lutron rates its devices for at least 10 years but does say that it varies depending on different environmental factors. Personal anecdotes are all that we have since none of us can speak on a large portion of the population. Even using online resources can be a miss since most people post when they have issues vs when things run perfectly. Once you take into account most people will still blame the mfg. vs. themselves when something does happen, makes those personal observations more important when coming from a place of experience with something. 

When it comes to product reliability with my installs, I've seen the most failures with zwave devices. However, that number is still small compared to the amount of devices that I have installed over the last 10 years. 

13 hours ago, matapan said:

If the answer to #1 is a very long time, how are their switches engineered to last that long?

They focus on using high quality parts. That's part of the reason their products cost so much. 

 

13 hours ago, matapan said:

is the design of the Insteon switches inherently good, and the short lifespan of early assemblies due to low quality parts used in the switches? Or, is it more than that? In other words, will a really good set of electrolytic capacitors and contact switches make for a high quality, reliable switch?

There is a general consensus that older insteon devices had terrible build quality. This can be seen anecdotally in the amount of complaints people had when it came to failures vs now when it comes to later generation devices. The internet is not littered with complaints as it once was. Judging on what failed and people who've replaced capacitors, I would have to say yes. Especially when that is the normal point of failure. 

 

14 hours ago, balli said:

I wonder if the "new" Insteon devices are built with decent capacitors?

I've never opened up my switches to see how they are built. However, I still have my original alpha and beta switches installed from 4/5 years ago when they first started testing the I3 line. 

[SLP]

Thank you everyone. Seems like the consensus is to remain Insteon/I3 and view z-wave/zigbee/Matter as interesting, but still not reliable/functional as Insteon/I3.

Thank you again.