Different Light Bulb Types and Impact on INSTEON

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi all,

 

This topic is for discussions on the impact of different light bulb types on INSTEON communications.

 

 

Thanks and with kind regards,

Michel

[jerlands]

Just recently had to replace two outdoor CFLs with Halogen. Couldn't communicate with either SWL, tried new CFLs but after hours of on time started producing too much noise. I think this had to do with the weather here in Houston, either the temp or humidity but everything had run great since I installed the devices mid April. These were FEIT 60w equiv. and I don't know how other brands would work but I'll be glad to see Insteon compatible CFLs or inexpensive 60w equiv. LEDs.

[rcluce]

This is not a rant, and I like using Insteon devices.

 

I'm an electrician and Insteon installer. I find when calling Smarthome for technical support regarding Insteon devices, one of the first questions asked is always what type of bulb am I using. It seems to me that there are more incompatible light bulbs than not.

 

In today's world of Title-24 regulations and energy conservation, it's not only neglectful but irresponsible on Smarthome's behalf that their controllers aren't more compatible.

 

I typically do full Insteon installations and emphasize scene capabilities. Most of the homes I work on use a variety of lighting types, but predominantly low-voltage. When I directly ask Smarthome if their dimmers are compatible, they always sidestep and tell me that they "usually" work.

 

When I had problems with Insteon timer switches used in bathrooms, tech support asked if I was controlling CFL bulbs. In California we're all but required to use CFLs, either that or some other form of high-efficacy lighting. How is Insteon planning to deal with LED lighting?

 

I think Insteon needs to show more concern for bulb compatibility, current lighting regulations and trends so their products will remain (become) applicable in near future.

[brad77]

Well said, rcluce.

[IndyMike]

Hello jerlands,

 

I apparently missed your post originally - my apologies.

 

I test drove CFL's from four manufacturers years ago for use with my X10 system. Of the bulbs that I evaluated (GE, Sylvania, Neptune, Feit) the Feit were the wost for turn on transients. They also had the annoying habit of combining (harmonic addition) to produce frequencies in the X10 range (120 Khz). This is a situation where the 2nd or 3rd harmonic noise from multiple bulbs "aligns" to create noise that is effectively the sum of the various bulbs. This noise would knock my X10 devices off line and would presumably have detrimental effects on Insteon devices as well. This "phenomena" sounds very similar to your warmup in that it took some time to occur.

 

It's been a number of years, but at the time I selected Sylvania CFL's (non-dimming) for use. I've continued to use these with my Insteon relay units with no detrimental effect.

 

I have never found a dimmable CFL that is completely compatible with a X10 or Insteon Dimmer. Noise tends to increase with decreasing dim level and will eventually take the device off-line.

 

No experience with LED bulbs.

 

IM

 

Just recently had to replace two outdoor CFLs with Halogen. Couldn't communicate with either SWL, tried new CFLs but after hours of on time started producing too much noise. I think this had to do with the weather here in Houston, either the temp or humidity but everything had run great since I installed the devices mid April. These were FEIT 60w equiv. and I don't know how other brands would work but I'll be glad to see Insteon compatible CFLs or inexpensive 60w equiv. LEDs.

[silverton38]

I personally use the Switchlinc Relay unless I really need to dim something. They work great and they are quiet. They seem to work with every type of bulb. In my X10 days I used to use the X10 Pro 20 AMP relay switches. They worked good but did not work with LED bulbs or low wattage CFLs.

 

Another benefit to using Switchlinc Relays is that they are cooler. I do not worry about heat inside the boxes.

 

Most people do not dim lights and do not care too.

[oberkc]

I use CFL and LED bulbs. I don't use dimmable versions. I have used different brands, without concern. While I suspect that they put out some noise on my system, I must not use enough of them to cause problems. So far, my system seems to work with these types of bulbs.

 

Most of my interior lighting is dimmable, and I continue to use incadescent for all these. One benefit of insteon is the ramp rates. Since incorporating insteon devices and ramp rates, I notice a HUGE increase in bulb life. It is pretty rare that I have to replace a bulb.

[silverton38]

Both CFLs and especially LED lights last much longer then incandescent bulbs; so you do not need a ramp rate to preserve the bulbs. LCD bulbs should last 10 to 20 years and maybe even longer; no one really knows.

 

LED lights also gives you their full brightness instantly. They also use about 10% of the power of an incandescent bulb and much less if you are using air conditioning. The heat of an incandescent bulb makes the air conditioner work harder.

 

The problem is a 60 Watt equivalent LED bulb will cost you $20. Most of the bulbs sold in the stores today are only 20 Watt equivalents or even less. That is why CFLs are quite popular in the areas where incandescent bulbs are being banned (Canada/California).

 

CFLs will save you money but LED are much better. Unfortunately; LED bulbs will take several years to pay for themselves.

 

My conclusion; I will buy the relay switches unless I really need to dim something because we must all face the future which will be an incandescent free environment.

[ingeborgdot]

What is the law about incandescent lights going to be? I don't use CFL because of the dirty energy they produce. LED are just too expensive. I only use incandescent because I have all my lights set at 70% and like to have dimming capabilities.

[Brian H]

First not all incandescents are baned.

They have to meet a certain standard of lumen's for each watt used.

 

Specialty bulbs like oven {imaging a CFL or LED in an oven }, freezer and small bulbs like vacuum cleaner ones are exempt.

 

A Google search or looking on the Department Of Energy web site can find more data.

 

I have two that meet the 2012 {2011 in California} standards.

Sylvania Super Saver Bulbs.

Halogen, 72 watts, about a bright as a 100 watt incandescent, same base as the older bulbs and physically smaller A17 sized shell. Most old 100 watts are a A19 Shell. They do dim as expected.

 

Bulbs you have in your possession are still OK to use.

Gee I can see sales runs on cases of bulbs in the fall of 2011.

[Avonlea22]

I recently purchased some of those same bulbs. I like them. They put out a nice amount of light and the color is good. But, I've decided to go the LED route. I know the upfront cost is more, but why pay for 27 watts when I can get away with 9 watts for the same amount of light as that 27 watt halogen or a 40 watt incandescent?

[Brian H]

Though some dislike CFLs. I don't find them that bad so that is what I am using.

Now that the LEDs are starting to get into a better price range. They maybe my next replacements.

My early model EarthLED Evolux S LED bullb is finally getting bad. It has a small internal fan to keep the guts cool and now sounds like a 747 taking off.

[ingeborgdot]

Here is a link to just one article of many I could link to.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... google.com

[robandcathy1]

I use CFL both dimable and non just fine I have over 50 insteon devices in my house with out a problem, except for one, which i recently found out it was whining because one of the bulbs was burnt out. However I do have 3 pairs of access points (probably over kill) but I wanted to make sure the signal was everywhere, I didnt have any problems prior to them though.

[ELA]

I have only 1 CFL operating in my house ( 10 or more just for test purposes) and I avoid them for two "electrical distribution" reasons.

 

1) They draw 60hz current in a very non-linear fashion that adds a lot of harmonics to the AC line.

2) They are Insteon signal suckers!

 

CFLs are capacitive input devices and thus they suck signal. I have compared the line loading at 131Khz of:

(1) standard 100W incandescent bulb to that of

(4) CFLS (15w,15w,23w,23w) -for a similar wattage demand.-

 

And the difference is astounding in terms of signal attenuation of the CFLs when compared to the incandescent.

[ELA]

I have the capability to Quantify the "loading or signal sucking" effects of any load placed on the Insteon network.

This allows me to quantify the downsides of various loads such as CFLs.

 

There have been many discussions on forums about how some CFLs are better than others. My experience has been that all I have tested are worse than Incandescent loads. Not to say that "Better" CFLs are not out there. I just want to point out that saying that a CFL is better than another should not be judged based only on cost or apparent improvements in communications.

 

Below is some data for reference of a few CFL types I have quantified in case it might help someone decide if a particular CFL load might be part of a communications issue in their network.

 

I compare devices in terms of a "Standard Insteon Load".

What this means is that the load "acts as if" it were this "x.x" many Insteon devices added to the network at any particular location.

 

Adding actual Insteon devices is not much of a loading issue (since they repeat signals and thus boost network reliability).

Non Insteon loads that simply suck signal is likely to adversely affect the network and are to be avoided when possible.

 

Bulb Type :______________Standard Insteon Load it represents:

Feit 15W CFL ______________________________ 0.9

N:Vision 23W CFL (sku160-740) _______________1.3

GREENLITE 23W CFL (23w/ELS-DIM-A-2700k) __ 1.2

ENERGETIC 13W CFL (FE153-13SB 13W) _______ 0.66

HELICAL 10W CFL (FLE 10HT2/2/XL/SW) ______ 0.64

 

for comparison:

Typical 100W incandescent lamp ______________ 0.1

ECOSMART 8W LED (ECS 20 WW FL120) ________ 0.2

 

 

Belkin SurgeMaster Plugstrip __________________1.3

 

 

So if you are concerned with avoiding plugstrips, as Smarthome advices, wouldn't one want to avoid CFLs?

Again, I would qualify that lesser signal sucking CFLs are a possibility and may be out there. I just wanted to quantify those that I have available.

[Brian H]

Thanks for the information.

 

I have also found. Most CFLs have poor power factors. Running around .5 and some also make power line noise.

[ELA]

Hi Brian,

 

Yes I do not like CFLs for their non-linear current demand profile ( poor power factor).

I purchased a bunch of CFLs a while back to do some studies (non Insteon related).

 

Here is a OScope recording of the current demand vs line voltage of 10 CFLs in parallel. From this you can see how terrible their current profile is.

 

 

You can see that CFLs draw the major portion of their current well into the 1/2 cycle and outside of the Insteon communication time slots.

So while CFLs are obviously signal suckers I would be interested in observing a CFL that is a noise maker. I suppose anything is possible if the device is defective.

 

I purchased my one and only LED lamp back a while ago with the CFLs for comparison. It has a much more linear current demand and is Insteon friendly as well as being energy efficient.

[evilpete]

My experience has been that dimmable burn out to fast, I accidentally left a several on for the weekend at maximum dim and my monday 3 out of the 4 were dead.

 

As for dimmable LED lights I have better results.

 

currently I am using these LED lights with a SWITCHLINC 2476D

 

Dimmable PAR38 12 Watt LED Spot Light http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002OKNQ0A

these work well although it has a dimming dimming works best if there at least one incandescent light attached to the circuit. Else it seems to stay at near full brightness until the last 20%. They also sometime have a glow when turned off ( again the adding a single incandescent light fixed this )

 

the other LED used was a LL-PAR20-Cree9-W / WW

http://www.ledliquidatorsinc.com/PAR_20D_3_LED_Cree_light_bulb.php

 

the Cree9 work the best although their beams are a little to focused for use in pot lights ( I ended up installing a defuser and am happy ).

[matapan]

Given the noise issues with CFLs, it sounds like LED's are the way to go if you're going to continue using Insteon.

 

Does anyone have any extensive and low level knowledge about LED's and how well they work or don't work with an Insteon setup when the LED's are used in large quantities?

 

Specifcally:

 

Do LED loads appear as real loads to an Insteon device like a Lamplinc or Appliancelinc? I plugged in some Christmas tree lights last year into an Appliancelinc, it would toggle on when a command was sent, but immediately turn itself off. This characteristic was standard for a number of Appliancelinc units I had around. Plugging in a normal load connected to an incadescent bulb did not cause the Insteon device to behave unexpectedly.

 

Do ramp rates and lighting levels work well with LED's as they do with incandescents?

 

How much noise do LED's produce over time? As a CFL bulb ages, it produces more and more noise. I have the Smarthome recommended GE CFL's. They worked fine initially, but now produce loads of noise on the circuit.

[evilpete]

Do LED loads appear as real loads to an Insteon device like a Lamplinc or Appliancelinc? I plugged in some Christmas tree lights last year into an Appliancelinc, it would toggle on when a command was sent, but immediately turn itself off. This characteristic was standard for a number of Appliancelinc units I had around. Plugging in a normal load connected to an incadescent bulb did not cause the Insteon device to behave unexpectedly.

 

Do ramp rates and lighting levels work well with LED's as they do with incandescents?

 

How much noise do LED's produce over time? As a CFL bulb ages, it produces more and more noise. I have the Smarthome recommended GE CFL's. They worked fine initially, but now produce loads of noise on the circuit.

 

 

my home office ( man cave ) has LED recessed lighting, I find that the dim rate seems to depend on brand, cheaper dimming LEDs are not as "linear" as incandescent ( 90% of the dimming happens during the last 20% )

 

I found Cree brand work the best but are somewhat pricey

 

Although I noted that if you install just one incandescent bulb in the circuit fixes the problem with dimming linearly

 

As I mentioned before, currently I have a three cheaper (non cree) "PAR38 14 Watt LED Spot Lights" ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002OKNQ0A ) installed with fourth fixture installed with a 27 watt incandescent all being controlled with a single SwitchLinc dimmer and am satisfied with the results.

 

I also have a Cree 9watt else where in the house on a circuit of it's own ( http://www.ledliquidatorsinc.com/PAR20-LED-9-Watt-Cree.php) and it dims linearly for the entire range without the need of a incandescent.

[matapan]

Thanks for sharing, evilpete.

 

I'm curious to find out how these bulbs fare over time. The GE CFL's I use did not produce line noise initially, but after 6 months, they generated enough noise to block communication with the Switchlinc Relay they were connected to. There are 4 lamps in the circuit. Replacing the Switchlinc Relay with a Dual Band Keypadlinc relay solved the problem. It would be nice to work with low wattage bulbs that don't create a lot of issues with Insteon.

[evilpete]

I have the capability to Quantify the "loading or signal sucking" effects of any load placed on the Insteon network.

This allows me to quantify the downsides of various loads such as CFLs.

 

 

 

I would love to see the effects of APC UPS's on signal sucking, in my house, the three UPSs I have ( two for TiVo and one for my computer ) are the worst offenders.

[Brian H]

I did a test with three APC UPS units I have.

I had to do it with X10 signals as I don't have a good method of measuring Insteon signals.

X10 XTBM Meter

TR16A Touch-tone responder.

Isolated power with a XPPF filter to my test stand. So my repeater didn't get in the way.

BX1000 5.20 volts no UPS connected, 0.82 volts UPS connected.

BackUps 450 connected and disconnected around 5.20 volts.

BackUps 500 connected and disconnected around 5.20 volts.

 

So the exact model and maybe even the power line characteristics could effect how much a UPS effects power line signals.

[johnnyt]

Do regular fluorescent lights cause problems? Does it depend on the type of ballast (magnetic vs electronic) or the brand/quality of it?

 

I have been getting a flicker from one light fixture in my kitchen (incandescent load) and it is next to a fluorescent load. It's random and very quick, almost unnoticeable. Both loads are controlled by KPLs. A dimmer for the incandescent load and a relay for the fluorescent load.

 

Before insteon the fluorescent load ate through about three X10 relay switches over 3 years. The KPL has survived over a year now.

 

Those KPLs also take a very long time for ISY to program when I make a change compared to my other ones. I've sometimes had to restore them (and sometimes more than once) because a change didn't take. A painfully slow process.

 

 

 

 

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