KPL mystery

[xlurkr]

I have a KPL that's acting strangely.  Its on level is 66%.  When I press On, its status in the AC briefly flashes to 66%, then returns to Off.  The light does turn on, at 66%, and it stays there.  If I query it in the AC, the status becomes 66%.

Here's what the Event Viewer shows when I press On:

Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [168] uom=100 prec=0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST 168 (uom=100 prec=0)
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [1] uom=100 prec=0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST   1 (uom=100 prec=0)
 

Curiously, it also has the exact same series of messages if I press On again.  The light goes to full on, as it should, but the same thing happens: status is shown to be 66% (168 in the message), and then the spurious return to Off.  Does anyone know what's going on here?  I've already reset and restored once.  I guess I can try removal and reinstallation next.

-Tom

Edited April 30 by xlurkr

[xlurkr]

More info: if I turn it on in the AC, this is what Event Viewer shows:

Tue 04/30/2024 02:31:38 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [168] uom=100 prec=0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:31:38 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST 168 (uom=100 prec=0)
 

Status shows 66%.  Seems like it's just the physical actuation of the On button that's weird.

-Tom

Edited April 30 by xlurkr

[paulbates]

If you haven't tried, I would pull the air gap out and wait for 10 seconds, and then press it in and hold it (for about 5 seconds) until it beeps. Then restore device and retest

[xlurkr]

That was my reset and restore, as documented in the first post.  It did improve the behavior slightly - prior to that, it was always going on to 100%, rather than 66% then 100% with the two successive presses.  But it didn't fix the spurious Off status issue.  I'll try again.

-Tom

[paulbates]

I saw the reset comment but wasn't sure about the air gap.. I've owned a few keypads and a long air gap is important to fixing local quirkiness problems.

[xlurkr]

Tried resetting 3 times with long air gap, always the same behavior.  And I was also able to verify that I can press and hold On and Off to dim to any level I want, ant the AC shows the correct status.  But if I press On, status flashes 66% and then goes to Off.  Fast On also works as it should.  Just the single press of On is whack.

If I remove and readd, will I need to readd it to any scenes it was in?  It's been a while since I've done this.  I've done a few replacements recently, and that's automatic, but can I replace this KPL with itself, essentially?

-Tom

 

Edited April 30 by xlurkr

[paulbates]

How old is it? I had problems with dimmers and eventually only bought on/off versions... Even after insteon swapping out the defective ones around 2012.

Edited April 30 by paulbates

[paulbates]

"Yes" to adding the scenes back if you delete and re-add. I never tried replacing a device with itself but would be surprised if the isy would allow that

If it's defective, replacing with a new one has worked well for me, including the scenes... Need to remember to move the old switch out of folders if it's in one.

[xlurkr]

It's kinda old.  And I do have spares that are newer.  I'll try the remove/readd, then I'll just replace it if I need to.  I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking any easy troubleshooting steps or root causes.  I'd hate to go to the trouble of replacing it, and getting the same behavior because I had some bad links that get restored every time or something like that.

It's new behavior, so either I misconfigured something accidentally recently, or the device has failed.  Doesn't the Event Viewer suggest that it's sending an On message of 1/255 to the PLM right after it sends the On of 168?  That sounds like a busted KPL to me.

-Tom

[IndyMike]

14 hours ago, xlurkr said:

I have a KPL that's acting strangely.  Its on level is 66%.  When I press On, its status in the AC briefly flashes to 66%, then returns to Off.  The light does turn on, at 66%, and it stays there.  If I query it in the AC, the status becomes 66%.

Here's what the Event Viewer shows when I press On:

Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [168] uom=100 prec=0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST 168 (uom=100 prec=0)
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   1
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [1] uom=100 prec=0
Tue 04/30/2024 02:16:12 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST   1 (uom=100 prec=0)
 

Curiously, it also has the exact same series of messages if I press On again.  The light goes to full on, as it should, but the same thing happens: status is shown to be 66% (168 in the message), and then the spurious return to Off.  Does anyone know what's going on here?  I've already reset and restored once.  I guess I can try removal and reinstallation next.

-Tom

@xlurkr - your event viewer trace is a bit odd in that the device does appear to report two separate status(s) to the same manual on. 

Your event viewer does not appear to be on "level 3".  Can't see the actual device communication to the PLM.  If the problem is still occurring, could you post a trace with the viewer set to "level 3"?

[xlurkr]

@IndyMike Thanks for having a look!  I don't understand all these messages, so I dropped down to level 2 for the stuff I posted earlier.  Here's the level 3 traffic for a single press of On:

Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 00.00.01 CF 11 00    LTONRR (00)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [168] uom=100 prec=0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST 168 (uom=100 prec=0)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 00.01.01 CF 11 01    LTONRR (01)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [1] uom=100 prec=0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST   1 (uom=100 prec=0)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 11.00.01 CF 06 00           (00)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->11.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.

-Tom
 

[IndyMike]

1 hour ago, xlurkr said:

@IndyMike Thanks for having a look!  I don't understand all these messages, so I dropped down to level 2 for the stuff I posted earlier.  Here's the level 3 traffic for a single press of On:

1) Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 00.00.01 CF 11 00    LTONRR (00)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [168] uom=100 prec=0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST 168 (uom=100 prec=0)
2) Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 00.01.01 CF 11 01    LTONRR (01)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [DON] [1] uom=0 prec=-1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]      DON   1
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1D FB 44 1] [ST] [1] uom=100 prec=0
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [  1D FB 44 1]       ST   1 (uom=100 prec=0)
3) Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1D.FB.44 11.00.01 CF 06 00           (00)
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1D.FB.44-->11.00.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Wed 05/01/2024 03:26:05 PM : [INST-INFO   ] Previous message ignored.

-Tom
 

@xlurkr, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with your KPL.  There is a problem with the way that the ISY is processing the communication from the KPL.

KPL's are rather complicated devices and they carry a lot of legacy baggage that isn't necessarily documented by the Insteon guides.

Labels above:

1. Transmission from the KPL commanding devices in group 1 (00.00.01) to go to their preprogrammed on levels (the PLM).  Items in green are the ISY "interpeting" this command (on) to level (168).
2. A second transmission from the KPL commanding devices in group 1 (xx.xx.01) to go to their preprogrammed on levels.  This is responsible for your device indicating a "1" level in the AC. In my opinion, this transmission should have been ignored by the ISY.
3. Third transmission,  using a "reserved" command "06".  This transmission is ignored (correctly).

That's the good news.  The bad news is I don't know why this happened. 

You could investigate further with the ISY team (open a ticket).  There might be a way to trace back to when/how this occurred. 

Your other option would be to delete the device and re-add it to the ISY (painful).

[dbwarner5]

51 minutes ago, IndyMike said:

@xlurkr

Your other option would be to delete the device and re-add it to the ISY (painful).

This doesn't have to be painful.  

1) Before you delete it, go to programs. Find/Replace and select this device to find and replace it (temporarily) with you most obscure device. Dot his to all the instances.

2) Go to device tree and select the current device and take a screen shot of the right portion that says what sense its in as a controller / responder. 

3) go to each scene and make note of its setting either screen shots or pen / paper

4) Delete the device. Re- add the device.

5) go to programs and do the same Find / replace but use the obscure device for the find, and the new device as the replace.

6) add to each scene and adjust. 

 

this is from memory from a few years ago when I had to do the same to several devices.. 

There may even be a simpler way if someone else knows? 

cheers.

[xlurkr]

 I think the next step is remove, reset, reinstall.  Thanks for the pointers on how to do that, @dbwarner5.

-Tom

[IndyMike]

@xlurkr,  one last thought if you haven't deleted yet:  try changing the device "On Level" from the Admin Console. 

Change to something like 70%, then click the "On Level" button to write the changes.  I normally keep the Event Viewer open when doing this so I can see the changes being written to the device.

Turn your switch on locally and see if the ISY responds correctly.

[xlurkr]

@IndyMikeIt acts just like it did before, only the status when queried is 70%, and the first ST message in the log is 179.  But the AC flashed 70% and then went to Off like before.  And I can turn it on and off in the AC and in that case the status is always correct.  It looks like pushing the On button always sends two messages, and the second one tells the PLM that the level is 1/255.  Time to remove/reset/readd, and if that doesn't work, replace.

-Tom

[xlurkr]

I have to say, though, that I find it weird that press and hold and fast on work exactly like they should.  You'd think that if there was something wrong with the On button they'd be messed up, too.  That's what makes me wonder if it isn't programmed incorrectly somehow, or associated with a rogue scene or program, and if it is, a replacement KPL will have the same problem if I restore to it.

The other weird thing is that I discovered this behavior because this KPL is in a scene that gets turned off when I double click (fast off) a switch at the top of the stairs, and it wasn't turning off.  It did turn off, though, if the status was something other than Off; that is, if I queried it, or changed it through the AC, etc., and then did the double click of the stairs switch.  But since my reset and restore, it's turning off when it should.  Since that was the motivation for the whole investigation and search for a fix, I might just leave it as is.

-Tom

[IndyMike]

1 hour ago, xlurkr said:

@IndyMikeIt acts just like it did before, only the status when queried is 70%, and the first ST message in the log is 179.  But the AC flashed 70% and then went to Off like before.  And I can turn it on and off in the AC and in that case the status is always correct.  It looks like pushing the On button always sends two messages, and the second one tells the PLM that the level is 1/255.  Time to remove/reset/readd, and if that doesn't work, replace.

-Tom

I figured it was worth a try. 

I have a number of devices that send multiple messages when activated.  The difference is the ISY IGNORES the follow on messages as shown below.

I understand your reluctance to delete/re-add the device.  The switch is performing correctly, it's just the level indication in the ISY that's off.  That will absolutely mess with programs that are level dependent.  If you don't have any, time to move on to something more relevant (mowing the lawn/ working on the better half's to do list).

If you do choose to delete/re-add.  Please do post back the results.  I've never seen this, and I've had Insteon/ISY's for more than a few years.

Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1A.4F.19 00.00.01 CF 11 00    LTONRR (00)
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [Std-Group   ] 1A.4F.19-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=3
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1A 4F 19 1] [DON] [0] uom=0 prec=-1
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [  1A 4F 19 1]      DON   0
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [D2D EVENT   ] Event [1A 4F 19 1] [ST] [82] uom=100 prec=0
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [  1A 4F 19 1]       ST  82 (uom=100 prec=0)
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [INST-SRX    ] 02 50 1A.4F.19 53.BC.3A 45 11 01    LTONRR (01)
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [Std-Cleanup ] 1A.4F.19-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=1
Thu 05/02/2024 08:45:54 PM : [INST-DUP    ] Previous message ignored.

 

[paulbates]

Another idea If there are level dependent programs, and since you have spares, is to save a lot of scene rework now and do a 'replace' with one of your other spares. Ideally that gets you working for that location relatively easily.

Then wire this current problematic one to a plug so you can plug it in to a workbench outlet and do the experiments in a controlled way that doesn't matter how many times you reset.