Micro Module behaviour

[K-bert]

When I first moved into my house I replaced the light by the rear door with a motion activated flood light for security reasons. Two years ago I built a detached garage in the back yard. In the winter months the back yard dark in the mornings and evenings. As such when the garage was built I installed two lights on the side of the garage to light the path around it for taking garbage and recycling to the bins in the alley. I automated this using an on/off switch for the lights in the garage, a micro module in the motion light, and button on a keypad in the house. I called the scene "Path Lights"

The on/off switch is the responder in the scene and the micro module and button are controller/responders. The way I wired up the module is in the attachment of this post.

I recently acquired an I/O module that is in the basement for controlling the humidifier on the furnace. I used the security rough in that came with the house and a magnetic sensor to connect to the input of the I/O module. This lets my EISY know when the back door is opened.

I wrote a program with the conditions "if between sunset and sunrise (next day) AND back door open" then turn on the Path Lights scene.

This worked great during testing. The scene turned on when I opened the back door. However, yesterday when I took some stuff out to the garage the lights came on when the door opened, but when I stepped outside and motion was detected the scene turned off. I shrugged it off at the time, but then it did it to me again this morning.

The motion sensor should provide a latching signal to the micro module but having a program to turn the lights on seems to have reversed the on - off operation of the module.

Is there a set up option I should change in the micro module? I am currently using the built in timer on the motion sensor to keep the lights on for about five minutes so it should be providing an on signal for that whole time.

And because someone might ask: the reason I am not setting the I/O module as another controller to the scene is that I do not want the lights to come on when it is still sunny outside when the rear door is opened.

 

K-bert

[paulbates]

It's going to help to see the program. 

What you're describing could happen its totally controlled with a scene

What I do in these situations is:

1. Use a scene where the sensor is the controller to turn the light on fast
2. Set the "off" time of the detector to the longest time possible if possible
3. Use a program to detect it "switched on" and use a wait of my choosing and have the program switch it back off

If you can;t set the off time on the sensor to be long, do the whole thing program only with no scene

Edited January 23 by paulbates

[Guy Lavoie]

I do something similar to Paul, which is basically detach the motion detection from the action, by having a program in between the two. I use Insteon motion sensors in my basement to turn on a Hue bulb for a short time, for those situations where I'm just going there to get something momentarily. This avoids the need to turn on the big ceiling fluorescent lights for just a minute. Having a program allows it to retrigger by new motion, and avoid the motion sensor turning off the lights because it's timer is up (I do the opposite of Paul: I set it to the shortest on time, and ignore the off signal altogether). It's the program that sets the on time. I can also make it time of day sensitive as you are doing, and also ignore the motion sensing and the Hue bulb if the fluorescent lights are on.

Post your program. It should be easy to figure out.

[K-bert]

Thank you for your replies!

I don't want to crank up the time that the motions sensor is on for because if I have a program turn the light off after five minutes and then someone else is in the back yard the motion light will not re-trigger the micro module until the time on the motion sensor has passed.

I took a look at the options for the module in the admin console the only thing I have changed previously here was turning off the LED. Its in an enclosure so it will never be seen anyway.

There is an option to set it as "Line high always On; Line low always Off"

Since I know that sending a high from the motion sensor turns the light on when it is off and now apparently off when it is on I wonder if I should check this option.

The program I am using uses a variable called "sRearDoorOpen". I have it do a some other things in the system like turn the humidifier off if the door is open long enough to prevent wasting water. A screen grab of the program is attached.

K-bert

[K-bert]

And of course I thought of this after posting my reply: If I simply add another argument to the program with "And Micro Module Status is Off" to the program it should turn the Path Lights scene on when the door is open and turn in back on if the motion sensor turns it off.

K-bert

[K-bert]

3 hours ago, Guy Lavoie said:

I do something similar to Paul, which is basically detach the motion detection from the action, by having a program in between the two. I use Insteon motion sensors in my basement to turn on a Hue bulb for a short time, for those situations where I'm just going there to get something momentarily. This avoids the need to turn on the big ceiling fluorescent lights for just a minute. Having a program allows it to retrigger by new motion, and avoid the motion sensor turning off the lights because it's timer is up (I do the opposite of Paul: I set it to the shortest on time, and ignore the off signal altogether). It's the program that sets the on time. I can also make it time of day sensitive as you are doing, and also ignore the motion sensing and the Hue bulb if the fluorescent lights are on.

Post your program. It should be easy to figure out.

The only reason I cant do this right now is that the micro module detects the motion sensor output and controls the lights at the same time. So far as I know there isn't a way to disconnect the output (Load) from the input (Sense #1). I could easily do this if I had a second module in the light so one would detect the motion sensor output and then the other control the load.

K-bert

[Guy Lavoie]

Understood. I wasn't familiar with the micro module.

[K-bert]

And I can now confirm that adding the condition in the "If" part of the program did not work. As before the lights came on when the door was opened. When i stepped out the lights went off as before, but then came back on as expected.

However this continued with the lights turning off and on in about one second intervals. My neighbours must have thought i had a child flipping the lights on and off or something.

I was able to disable the program in the mobile app.

I left my laptop at work so i will give it another try this weekend.

[paulbates]

Don't want to be a broken record, but you need to take control of the lights' off away from the sensor and let a program do it

[oberkc]

8 hours ago, paulbates said:

Don't want to be a broken record, but you need to take control of the lights' off away from the sensor and let a program do it

I support this statement.  You need to get the motion sensor disconnected from the micro module and control everything programmatically.  Assuming an Insteon sensor, configure it to send ON only commands, and use a program to turn the lights off.  I tend to set the motion sensor time out to be short, so that continuous motion sensing retriggers the motion program before the program turns off the lights.

[K-bert]

I am not arguing. It is not an insteon motion sensor. It is a motion sensor that is triggering an insteon micro module. The micro module then controls the lights. As I mentioned before there is no way that I know of to prevent the output of the micro module from following the input, or sense wire. If I could pulling apart the sensing and control would be child's play. The only way I can separate the motion sensor from the lights in this setup is to add a second micro module. Because this is retrofitted into existing wiring I can't use the micro module at the sensor to detect motion and a switch on the wall inside to turn on the lights as there would be no power in the electrical box where the light is for the micro module.

I also cannot use an insteon motion sensor as it simply would not survive outside in our harsh winters.

K-bert

[paulbates]

Ok, I see what you're saying. I use one of these in a box with hardware store lamp post photo cell for a dusk sensor..  but I've capped off the load and use iox programs to control the lights and avoid unwanted behavior like car lights reaching the sensor. The only way I can think of to do it is to add hardware like another micro module or switch to control the lights. 

The yellow lead in the micromodule is expecting a hard on/or off voltage, kind of the equivalent of dry contacts, and it looks like there are fluctuations in what the sensor is sending the micromodule. I know for my dusk sensor app, I have to use an iox program to send it an "off" in the afternoon this time of year in my northern latitude as there were days it wouldn't work simply because the photocell never reset it back to off for similar reasons. 

Edited January 24 by paulbates

[K-bert]

I have lived with it without having the door control for this long, so I can live with it in its current configuration for now. I will play with some options and programs and see if I can get it working like I would like to. Otherwise I will pick up a couple more micro modules when my wife isn't looking.

K-bert

[Guy Lavoie]

Maybe you could keep the micro module and light sensor as a weatherproof motion sensor combination, and replace the lights with smart bulbs (Does Hue have weatherproof floodlights?) that are hardwired to line voltage, controlled by a program.

[K-bert]

5 minutes ago, Guy Lavoie said:

Maybe you could keep the micro module and light sensor as a weatherproof motion sensor combination, and replace the lights with smart bulbs (Does Hue have weatherproof floodlights?) that are hardwired to line voltage, controlled by a program.

Its a possibility, but the cost of two outdoor smart floodlights that would fit into this fixture is not much less than a second micro module, and in some cases much more. At least according to my quick internet search. I also currently only have Insteon and z-wave devices in my house. Depending on which type of smart bulb used I would have to get some controller hardware that polyglot can talk to.

[Guy Lavoie]

2 minutes ago, K-bert said:

Its a possibility, but the cost of two outdoor smart floodlights that would fit into this fixture is not much less than a second micro module, and in some cases much more.

Agreed. Just brainstorming here. Yes, Hue is expensive. I only mention Hue because I'm familiar with it. It does work with a polyglot plugin. But getting Hue just for this is a bit expensive, since you need the hub too. The second micro module looks like the best solution, and you're familiar with it already.

[Geddy]

20 hours ago, K-bert said:

First off...for future reference the preferred method for posting programs to the forum is to right click the program, select "copy to clipboard" (be sure you select the last item of "COPY", then paste the text into the forum post. This makes it easier for people to edit or comment on rather than a picture. 

Now, have you thought about removing the else? I would make a 2nd program that has a wait or is based on the micro module status to then turn the lights out. To me (not knowing what is controlling the variable) it sounds like you're opening then closing the door so the lights are coming on and going off due to the status of your variable. 

Removing the "ELSE" (turning lights off) will leave the lights on after the door is closed and whatever you're doing with the scene for "Path Lights" will remain on. The 2nd program would make a wait timer or even look at the trigger for the micro module to turn the scene off at a later time. 

Post the program(s) setting the "$sRearDoorOpen" value. Based on what you posted I expect that the program is changing to false when you're outside and causing the path lights to go out (the ELSE statement). You're then triggering them on with the motion sensor (not Insteon), but because the program above is still FALSE it's causing the ELSE to trigger again. Thus just flashing your lights. 

Remove the "ELSE" and test the result.

[K-bert]

I apologize, it has been some time since I added code to a post. I have also made the changes to my programs that you suggested. Here they are:

Variable Control

Rear Door Open - [ID 00F6][Parent 00AF]

If
        'Devices / 7-Doors / Back Door (On=Closed)' Status is Off
 
Then
        $sRearDoorOpen  = 1
 
Else
        $sRearDoorOpen  = 0
 

Lights On

Door triggered backyard light On - [ID 00B7][Parent 00AF]

If
        From    Sunset 
        To      Sunrise (next day)
    And $sRearDoorOpen is 1
 
Then
        Set 'Scenes / Outside / Path Lights' On
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

Lights Off

Door triggered backyard light Off - [ID 00C2][Parent 00AF]

If
        $sRearDoorOpen is 0
 
Then
        Wait  5 minutes 
        Set 'Scenes / Outside / Path Lights' Off
 
Else
   - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')
 

 

The weirdness comes in with the motion sensor. I thought that it worked that so long as the Sense #1 wire was set to line voltage that the micro module would turn on, regardless if it were already on or off. Like using the mobile app to turn on any Insteon switch pressing the on button locally on the switch would not change it.

I know that without the micro module in place the motion sensor provided line voltage to the lights so long as its light sensor deemed it dark enough and it detected motion. It then keeps the line voltage to the lights for as long as it is set to, which is changed by the dial on the bottom. Mine is about five minutes.

What is happening to me is when the micro module is already in the On state activated by the door opening and then I step onto the porch the motion sensor puts line voltage on the Sense #1 wire and the scene is being turned Off. Looking at the manual for the micro module I am wondering if I have is set to "Single momentary" instead of "Latching" mode.

The more I think about it the more adding a second micro module may be the best way to get my desired outcome. As other have mentioned separating the sensing and the control is the best way to go. I would like it to come on for five minutes when motion is detected. The motion sensor turns the lights off after its built in timer regardless if there is still motion, but it will turn them on right away again if there is. I would also like them to come on when the back door is opened and then off again five minutes after the back door is closed. However, if I were entertaining in the back yard it the motion sensor would detect us and send an off signal to the module after five minutes, which would override the program keeping the lights on by monitoring the back door.

I think the best course of action is:

1. Acquire second micro module
2. Wire second one in so it senses the motion
3. Turn down the time the motion sensor provides line voltage to the module to keep triggering a motion detected program to set a variable
4. Uses a program that turns on the light when either the back door is open or motion is detected
5. Use a separate program to turn the light off five minutes after the door is closed or the motion detected variable is zero

The program in step two I would probably set to set a variable to 1 when motion is detected, wait a minute and set it back to zero. This would start the countdown in the program in step 5, but if motion is detected again in the next four minutes it would reset the off program keeping the lights on so long as there is motion.

Sorry, I realize I just did a stream of consciousness dump.

K-bert

[oberkc]

7 hours ago, K-bert said:

I also cannot use an insteon motion sensor as it simply would not survive outside in our harsh winters.

While not Canada, temperatures here (Ohio) are currently -5F.  Winters can get pretty cold and summers can push 100F.  I would not reject Insteon motion sensors.  I protect mine from above from direct contact with rain, but otherwise they are fully exposed.

[Guy Lavoie]

4 hours ago, oberkc said:

While not Canada, temperatures here (Ohio) are currently -5F.  Winters can get pretty cold and summers can push 100F.  I would not reject Insteon motion sensors.  I protect mine from above from direct contact with rain, but otherwise they are fully exposed.

How long does the 9V battery last in the winter?

[oberkc]

I got several months out of the cheapest 9v battery.  (In retrospect, I probably should have sprung for the better versions of the 9v.). The current generation sensors use the lithium 123 battery and I get a little more time out of those.

[Brian H]

There are two motion sensors I have seen from Insteon.

The original 2420M made by SkyLink to the Insteon specification. It used the 9VDC battery.

The new one. 2844-222 has a 3VDC CR123A battery or could also be powered by a 5VDC Micro USB wall wart.

[Guy Lavoie]

4 hours ago, Brian H said:

The original 2420M made by SkyLink to the Insteon specification. It used the 9VDC battery.

 

I had been wondering where "SkyLink" on the box came from. It was the only Insteon product with that.

[Brian H]

I have only seen that with the original motion sensor.

The SkyLink brand name is what they used in their [probably outdated ones now] SkyLink's security systems. Maybe sold by Smarthome though I don't remember if they did. My thoughts are it was modified to work in Insteon systems.

Edited January 25 by Brian H
Try to clear up my statement.