Scene C on my KPL 6 is the only button that works.

[nowandthen]

I am new to Insteon and the ISY 99. I was setting up scenes for my home theater and installed a KeyPadLinc 6 button dimmable switch 2486D. In ISY I set up two scenes and created two programs. Although they weren't working to perfection I could press the ON button and get a response (button 1 scene) and press the Scene C button and get a response (button C scene). But as many of you know the button LED states did not operate as expected. I messed around for a while with button grouping but have no idea if I did anything. ISY warns not to do anything from that menu but maybe I did something (?). Further reading lead me to the solution of creating a scene for each button and calling those scenes to turn the LEDs on or off. I only want the LED of the current active lighting scene to be on, all others I want off. That all works well thanks to this forum. But I must have done something wrong. Now the only button on the KeyPadLinc that will initiate a program is Scene C. The other buttons light up when locally pressed but ISY must not be seeing them turn on because nothing happens. So I thought I would try to get the other buttons working so I added scenes/programs for buttons A and B but they don't work either. I can run the THEN portion of the programs and the lights will respond and the LEDs will now do as I wish. I can also run the THEN command from MobiLinc and that works too. I may have done something in the button grouping area for the KeyPadLinc but I'm not really sure. The scenes are almost identical so it must be something within the KPL that is not sending out a button press for the other keys. Anyone have any idea what I need to do? Buttons are set to Non-toggle [ON].

 

Button 1 program:

 

If

Control 'House / Interior / Theater / Theater Main KPL.1' is switched On

 

Then

Set Scene 'Theater House Lights' On

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button A' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button B' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button C' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button D' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button 1' On

Send X10 'O1'

Send X10 'O/Preset Dim (12)'

Send X10 'O2'

Send X10 'D/Preset Dim (12)'

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

 

 

Button C program:

 

If

Control 'House / Interior / Theater / Theater Main KPL.C' is switched On

 

Then

Set Scene 'Theater Intermission' On

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button 1' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button A' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button B' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button D' Off

Set Scene 'Theater Main KPL button C' On

Send X10 'O1'

Send X10 'O/Preset Dim (12)'

Send X10 'O2'

Send X10 'D/Preset Dim (12)'

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

Scenes "Theater House Lights" and "Theater Intermission" set the same set of 4 Insteon SwitchLincs to different levels.

[LeeG]

Bring up the Tools/Diagnostics/Event Viewer and set Change Level to 3. Press a KPL button that works. Wait at least 15 seconds and press a KPL button that does not work. The Event Viewer display will show if the button that does not work is sending a message to the ISY PLM. Sounds like you may have accidently changed the link records in the KPL. If you do not see messages in the Event Viewer when the KPL button is pressed that does not work, right click on the KeypadLinc primary button under My Lighting and select “Restore Deviceâ€.

[LeeG]

nowandthen

 

When you have run the Event Viewer trace of the button that does not work please post the Event Viewer information if it shows message activity when the not working button is pressed. There was a situation with non-toggle mode where the state of the LED controlled whether an ON or OFF command is issued even though you set non-toggle ON mode. Normally the KPL LED would not be affected by a button press in non toggle mode but since you are changing the LED condition through an ISY program you may be having an unintended effect on the command being issued by the KPL.

 

Lee

[nowandthen]

Lee,

 

Thanks for the reply. The event viewer shows a lot of activity when the working button (scene C) is pressed but shows nothing for the other buttons. So I did as you suggested, selected the primary button and chose Restore Device. I saw a lot of activity in the event viewer as the device was restored, but unfortunately it didn't fix the problem. I tried twice and even closed the ISY admin console and restarted it, but the viewer still shows no activity for all buttons except button "Scene C". Any other suggestions?

 

Todd

[LeeG]

Although it is less likely the PLM could have a link record problem. Try File/Restore Modem (PLM) which will rewrite the link records in the PLM just as the Restore Device did for the KPL.

 

Is your general Insteon powerline communication good?

[nowandthen]

During Modem restore I got this pop up:

 

Error

[-110012] Couldn't open config file to read [/CONF/FF0401.REC]

[-110022] Couldn't open file [/CONF/FF0401.REC]

 

Still no luck. Only button C works.

 

My Insteon devices are all new within the last two weeks. Three dual mode lamp modules, four SwitchLincs and one KPL. So far no problems other than this KPL. This KPL is controlling the same switchlinc switches so I wouldn't think there is a Insteon network problem. The KPL was working at one time but now only button C works.

 

Edit: Also I can see the keypad button LEDs change (turn on or off) as I execute the "Then" portion of my programs, so I think that means Insteon communications are acceptable. Just seems to be the switch somehow got set to not send key press data over the network. /edit

 

What about the "button grouping" window for the KPL? I don't know what that should look like. The matrix has a column for each button. None of the boxes are checked under any of the columns.[/img]

[nowandthen]

What about resetting the KPL to factory default settings?

[LeeG]

The links in the PLM are suspect at this point. No idea what those messages mean. Someone with more ISY knowledge than I have will have to address that. Maybe a file system problem or the SD card is not working as it should. Whatever that problem is you will not be able to restore the PLM until it is resolved.

 

The KPL control of a SwitchLinc, was that created through a Scene created through the ISY or by direct linking of the KPL to the SwitchLinc.

 

No harm in factory resetting the KPL but you will have to Restore Device for the KPL. When one KPL button will reliably send a message to the PLM but another button will not either the link in the KPL is missing/damaged or the PLM link is missing/damaged. A KPL button cannot send a message to the PLM and have that message recognized without those link records. If all buttons were failing then I would suspect powerline communication problem but when limited to some set of buttons it is more likely a link record problem. Since you cannot restore the PLM another option is to Remove the KPL from the ISY and add it again. That will cause the link records in the KPL to be written again and also the ones in the PLM.

 

Button Grouping should not be playing any part here. That has to do with defining a group of KPL buttons that function like Radio Buttons where only one button can be ON at any one time. Would affect which command is sent when the KPL button is pressed but would not suppress a button message altogether.

[nowandthen]

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

 

I discovered the problem as I was trying to streamline my scenes for turning the LEDs on and off. I have a scene for each of the KPL buttons so I can turn the LEDs on or off from within each Theater lighting program. As I added each keypad button to it's corresponding

keypad button scene I failed to change it from the default as a responder to a controller/responder. So when my program called those key button scenes to either turn the LED on or off it was also changing the button from controller/responder to responder, Thus the buttons could no longer send a command. I imagine button C was the first program I tried and it set all other buttons but itself as responders. I would have thought it would have set itself as a responder too but I guess I'll not worry about that.

 

I rebuilt my keypad button scenes so the buttons remained controller/responders. The KPL works just fine now. I'm a happy camper!

 

Lee, thanks for your help. You taught me a few things about the ISY. There was no way for you to see what was going on within my keypad button scenes. I have to remember to pay attention to devices that can be both controllers and responders. Rookie mistake.

[LeeG]

nowandthen

 

Glad to hear things are working. A few things to consider. The Controller/Responder button toggles the device between a Controller or Responder in the Scene. I am thinking writing the links for the Scenes were the solution.

 

With the error encountered when trying to reload the PLM link database I am concerned that there is a file system problem that should not be ignored. The -110012 message means “SD DRIVE CONFIG FILE OPEN READ FAILEDâ€. You may not be able to take a backup of the current configuration which would also mean you would not have a backup for a restore operation if needed in the future. Since this exposure is only going to grow larger as you add more and more devices, Programs, Scenes etc to the ISY you should resolve it now. Try taking a backup of the ISY and if that works try using that backup to do a restore of the ISY. If that works all should be okay but I am thinking the backup will not work for the same reason the Restore Modem did not work.

 

Lee

[nowandthen]

Hi Lee,

 

Thank you so much for your help! I really appreciate it!

 

I don't know if I am doing things correctly but it seems to work now. I don't do much programming, so my programs may be a bit crude. Does this sound like the right way to control the KPL LEDs?

 

I have 6 lighting programs for my theater. All 6 programs control the same lights. I listed two of the six programs in my first post, refer to that if you want to see my program structure. Each program sets the lights to different levels. The sixth one turns everything off. I want the LED on the 6 button KPL to reflect the last scene selected. So for example, if I press a key on the KPL or use my Mobilinc or the Admin Console to activate a program, I want that button on the KPL to be the only "bright" button. I want all other buttons turned off (I define OFF as brightness 1, very dim). From what I have read on this forum, the only way to control the LEDs on a KPL is to create a scene for each KPL button. Then those scenes can be called within a program and set to ON or OFF. I created 5 "Main KPL button scenes". I called them:

'Theater Main KPL button 1'

'Theater Main KPL button A'

'Theater Main KPL button B'

'Theater Main KPL button C'

'Theater Main KPL button D'

For each button scene listed above, I dragged the corresponding Theater Main KPL Button "line" (what is that called anyway, a device?) into it's corresponding scene (button 1 into scene button 1 etc). This is where the ISY prompts for Responder (default) or Controller/Responder. This is where I failed to set it to Controller and why my buttons quit working. My fix was to delete all the buttons from the keypad scenes and re-drag them into the scenes so I could change them to Controllers. (That's the only way I know of to change them from Responders to Controllers). I did this for all 5 KPL button scenes. In my programs, I list all five button scenes and either turn them ON or OFF. Am I doing this correctly? Takes a little while to step through all the scenes but it works.

 

Edit: I just found the wiki for the KPL. It describes mutually exclusive button control. Maybe this is what I want instead of the button scenes? Maybe controlling button LEDs using scenes is no longer neccessary? Is this a new cabability provided by Universal Devices and/or Smarthome?

 

Per your suggesetion, I'll check my back ups this evening. I have been making back ups every so often and I made quite a few last night as I tried to fix the problem. If I understand correctly, I should back up the ISY then restore the ISY with the back up I just made. If the ISY runs OK then I am good to go, correct?

[LeeG]

nowandthen

 

The fact that you can take successful Backups is good news. I had assumed that whatever was preventing one of the files from opening when doing a Restore Modem would have interfered with the Backup as well. I’ll leave the error message question for the UDI folks.

 

The Background LED settings apply to all KPL buttons rather than an individual button. Not necessary to adjust any of that information unless you want the general background LED intensity to be something other than the default.

 

Button Grouping is available on all KPLs. It works when buttons are physically pressed on the KPL. It has no affect when issuing commands from another controller to the KPL.

 

I would think about a slightly different approach to the Scenes you are using to turn Off the KPL button LEDs. As you say there is a delay in getting all the buttons Off when done individually. Think about defining a Scene that has all the KPL buttons you want to turn Off as responders to the Scene.

 

SceneABCDOff

Responders

KPL button A

KPL button B

KPL button C

KPL button D

 

If Control 'House / Interior / Theater / Theater Main KPL.1' is switched On

Then

Set Scene 'Theater House Lights' On

Set Scene 'SceneABCDOff’ Off

X10 stuff

 

Buttons A,B,C,D should turn Off nearly simultaneous just as all the responders in ‘Theater House Lights’ respond nearly simultaneously.

 

Scene1ABDOff

Responders

KPL button 1

KPL button A

KPL button B

KPL button D

 

If Control 'House / Interior / Theater / Theater Main KPL.C' is switched On

Then

Set Scene 'Theater Intermission' On

Set Scene 'Scene1ABDOff' Off

X10 stuff

 

You do not need to turn on button 1 or button C in the respective Program as pressing the KPL button turns the LED On. Since the If is “Switched On†the button LED has to be On from the button press.

 

Lee

[nowandthen]

Lee,

 

I wish I knew how to insert an image. Id like to show a screen shot of my lighting tree. Where are the LED buttons listed in the tree? I don't see them. I only see the buttons and those are what I've been using to build my LED scenes. Yesterday when I built the scenes with all the buttons as responders the KPL switch stopped working which is what prompted this thread. So last night I rebuilt the button scenes and defined them as controllers. Then The KPL started working again. So I thought I understood what I did and how I needed to build button LED control scenes in the future. As a personal sanity check and partly based on what you said in the post immediately preceding this one, I again rebuilt the button scenes and defined them as responders. I thought for sure that the button scenes where disabling the buttons and the switch would again stop working as a controller. But now that all button scenes are defined as responders, not controllers, the switch still works. Now I have no idea why the switch stopped working and then started working again. I'm really confused now. LOL Oh well maybe the switch just got confused, happens to me all the time. LOL

 

I still need an LED ON command for each program because I control the lights via my iphone (Mobilinc) so at times I do not physically touch the KPL. So I think I still would need at least two scenes to control the LEDs. One could combine all the OFFs as you suggest but I still need to call the specific scene for the one ON LED. If I always used the switch then i wouldn't need an ON. Combing all the OFFs should speed it up a bit. Thanks for the tip I'm going to try that now.

 

Back to the LED buttons, I still don't get where the LED buttons are listed in the tree, or are they? Are they listed as a separate item somewhere? I don't see them. When I build my scenes for the LED buttons I simply drag the KPL switch "device"? button (I guess that's what it is called) to the scene. Is that correct? There is no specific listing for the LED of each button? Just drag the device button and drop it on the scene? Are there any examples of these kinds of programs? I am aware of the wiki but haven't found any examples with screen shots for turning LEDs on and off on a KPL. Seems like a popular thing to do as Smarthome didn't build it in to the switch. Mine seems to work now, no idea why it stopped working then started again but I guess I should be happy it's working again. LOL

 

Todd

[oberkc]

Where are the LED buttons listed in the tree?

 

In my lighting tree, they show up under the primary button, accessible by clicking on the little + next to the name. I recall that this view has changed over the various iterations of the software. Mine is v2.7.14. You did not happen to manually (typing in the address) add the KPL, did you?

[LeeG]

One of my KPLs looks like this under My Lighting

 

KeypadLinc-3

KeypadLinc-3 - B

KeypadLinc-3 - C

KeypadLinc-3 - D

KeypadLinc-3 - E

KeypadLinc-3 - F

KeypadLinc-3 - G

KeypadLinc-3 - H

 

The entries – B thru – H are the Secondary buttons. Each button has a LED which is On when the respective button is turned On and the LED is Off when the respective button is turned Off. The LEDs are not displayed separate from the buttons. The LEDs reflect the On/Off state of the respective button.

 

As far as KPL hardware is concerned defining KPL buttons as responders does not affect the ability of a KPL button to send a message as a Controller to its Reponder(s). For my KPLs the ISY defined “Controller of†link records in the KPL for each button and “Responder to†link records in the ISY PLM so that when a button is pressed the Group messages will be sent to the ISY PLM and the PLM will process the Group messages. This was done automatically when the KPL was added to the ISY. I do not know why you were not seeing the Group messages in the Event Log when the button was pressed. The necessary link record for button C was in the information displayed when you posted the KPL link database information. That left the possibility that the PLM link records were missing/damaged in some way which is why the Restore Modem (PLM) suggestion which would have refreshed all the PLM link records.

 

I agree that you need the Scene for each individual KPL button so that the non=button press processing can turn the button On. Maybe just stick with what you have and live with the slight delay in getting the button LEDs turned Off. How often are you going to press a KPL button anyway.

[nowandthen]

Where are the LED buttons listed in the tree?

 

In my lighting tree, they show up under the primary button, accessible by clicking on the little + next to the name. I recall that this view has changed over the various iterations of the software. Mine is v2.7.14. You did not happen to manually (typing in the address) add the KPL, did you?

 

I'm on version 2.7.15. I don't have "+" next to my primary button. I read somewhere on this forum where someone could not see the secondary buttons (or was it LEDs?) and that removing and then adding the KPL by using the KPL's address fixed the problem. I wonder if I should see the LEDs and what does that do for me? The buttons seem to work but maybe they have a detrimental affect at some point? Programs seem OK at the moment. I need to figure out how to remove my KPL and add it back in using it's address. Curious what that will do.

 

Edit: I may have read that in the wiki under the KPL 286 section. I'll have to look again.

[nowandthen]

Lee,

 

Thanks for your help! I made more scenes that combined each combination of OFF LED buttons in it's own scene. Now instead of 5 scene lines to turn LEDs OFF and ON, i am down to two scene, one scene turns off 4 out of 5 LEDs and the next line turns one on. As I write this I think maybe I could have one scene that turns off all LEDs and the next line could call a scene to turn the one on. My tree will be a bit cleaner that way. This is noticeably faster and much more elegant. Thanks again!

[LeeG]

I am on 2.7.15, I added all my devices using New INSTEON Device and specified both the Insteon address and selected the device type from the pulldown. I do not have a + along side the primary button entry in My Devices tree. All eight buttons are listed as I posted before.

[nowandthen]

I am on 2.7.15, I added all my devices using New INSTEON Device and specified both the Insteon address and selected the device type from the pulldown. I do not have a + along side the primary button entry in My Devices tree. All eight buttons are listed as I posted before.

 

thanks Lee. That will save me the trouble of testing that method. My tree is like yours except mine is a 6 button so it only has 1, A, B, C and D.

 

Programs are now working beautifully!

 

I tested my programs using the all led buttons off scene followed buy the scene that turns one on. Not as elegant as it causes one extra flash on the keypad. The most elegant method to date is to have one scene that turns off all LEDs except one followed by a scene that turns one LED on. Magnificent!

 

I think I'm all set unless that gremlin pops up again.

 

Thanks again!

[nowandthen]

My new scenes:

 

KPL.1

 

If

Control 'House / Theater / Theater Main KPL.1' is switched On

 

Then

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes / Theater House Lights' On

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes, KPL Button LEDs / KPL Buttons ABCD' Off

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes, KPL Button LEDs / KPL button 1' On

Send X10 'O1'

Send X10 'O/Preset Dim (12)'

Send X10 'O2'

Send X10 'D/Preset Dim (12)'

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

button C:

 

If

Control 'House / Theater / Theater Main KPL.C' is switched On

 

Then

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes / Theater Intermission' On

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes, KPL Button LEDs / KPL Buttons 1ABD' Off

Set Scene 'House / Theater / Scenes, KPL Button LEDs / KPL button C' On

Send X10 'O1'

Send X10 'O/Preset Dim (12)'

Send X10 'O2'

Send X10 'D/Preset Dim (12)'

 

Else

- No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action')

 

 

My scenes simply contain the KPL primary and or secondary buttons.

[nowandthen]

I'd like to try re-linking my KPL using it's address and device type just to see if I can get LEDs to show up in the tree. I can't find the thread that described what to do. I know how to add an Insteon device, which provides a window to enter the device's address and type. but I don't recall if I need to unlink or remove the device first. Does anyone know if I need to unlink or otherwise remove the KPL before I link it manually?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello nowandthen,

 

I am not sure what you mean by LEDs not showing up in the tree. Are you talking about the sub buttons?

 

It's basically impossible to have KPLs without sub buttons unless:

1. The device was not added as a KPL (what's the description of the device)?

2. Corrupt file system (extremely rare)

3. They are actually there ... try using the Topology tool to see if they are already there

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[oberkc]

I know how to add an Insteon device, which provides a window to enter the device's address and type.

 

This sounds like you intend to manually add devices. While I am sure that this can work, there is an easier (and better) way.

 

From the device tree, remove the device (I recall that this is an option when you right-click on the device). Then, using the icon along the top, or from the menu, choose start linking. A dialog box will open up. I believe the default selection is to eliminate existing links from your device. This would be the correct selection. This puts your ISY/PLM into linking mode.

 

Now, go to the device and put it into linking mode (press and hold the main button on). After a few seconds, the button (and load, if any) will flash. At this point, you will have a new device in your tree. Take the ISY out of linking mode. Your new device should be properly identified with all the keys.

 

This whole process will remove the old device from your ISY, including scenes and programs. Once readded, you will have to go back and add the new device back in.

[nowandthen]

Hello nowandthen,

 

I am not sure what you mean by LEDs not showing up in the tree. Are you talking about the sub buttons?

 

It's basically impossible to have KPLs without sub buttons unless:

1. The device was not added as a KPL (what's the description of the device)?

2. Corrupt file system (extremely rare)

3. They are actually there ... try using the Topology tool to see if they are already there

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel,

I'm not really sure. I have all the buttons 1, A, B, C and D listed for the 6-button KPL in the tree. It kind of sounded like I should see LEDs in addition to the buttons, but maybe I am misunderstanding? I am currently using the buttons to turn the LEDs on and off and it seems to be fine. Just wasn't sure if I should have access to the LEDs in addition to the buttons. Maybe they are the same thing and people use different terms?

Todd

[LeeG]

There is no independent control over a KPL button LED separate from the control of the button itself. When a KPL button is logically turned On the underlying LED turns On. When a KPL button is On, the next physical button press causes the KPL to send a Group Off to any device linked as a Responder to the button and of course the button LED turns Off. When a button is logically turned Off the underlying LED turns Off. The next physical button press causes the KPL to send a Group On to any device linked as a Responder to the button and of course the LED turns On. This is assuming the KPL button is in the default toggle mode.

 

The KPL local load control button (ON/OFF in 6 button mode, Main in 8 button mode) can be turned On/Off with an Insteon Direct On/Off command or by turning a Scene On/Off where the KPL load control button is a Responder to the Scene. A KPL Secondary button can only be turned On/Off by turning a Scene On/Off where the KPL Secondary button is a Responder to the Scene. Regardless of how a KPL button is turned On or Off (physical button press, Insteon Direct command, Insteon Group/Scene command) when the button is Off the underlying LED is Off, when the button is On the underlying LED is On.

 

Some folks refer to a button being turned On/Off by talking about turning the LED On/Off. Some folks talk about turning a button On/Off. A difference without distinction. When a button is On the LED is On. When an LED is On the button is On.