Scenes Working But Failing Scene Test - Noise Issue?

[justin.cool]

Configuration:

Approximately 100 Insteon devices:

• Mainly Switchlincs, Lamplincs, Outletlincs, On/Off Adapters, etc, etc.

• 7 KPL’s

• Triggerlincs (2)

• RemoteLincs (3)

• Controlincs (2)

• ISY-99

• Access Points (5)

• Dualband LampLinc dimmers (4)

• Signal Linc (2)

 

I have several relatively complex scenes, with control from 4 different KPL’s and as many as 12 devices in each scene.

Earlier this year I did a lot of work eliminating noise and signal suckers via XPF, Leviton, and dedicated 20A inline filters along with replacement of all power strips with simple no surge protection units. At the end of this I was able to get these complicated scenes to run reliably, from all KPLs, virtually every time.

Recently I had some phantom links appear, and Rand guided me through the solution to that problem. However, as part of that, I noticed how long it took to “Copy Scene Attributes†for these large scenes, often as much as 15 minutes. I was told this was a pretty good indicator of noise issues for these devices. Further to that, I ran “Scene Testâ€, which I had never done before. And despite these scenes working just fine, all but ONE device in these scenes failed the Scene Test. I then proceeded to run the Scene Test on lots of other scenes, with lots of failures, (not 100%, but the majority), despite the reliability of all those scenes when initiated by the ISY or KPL.

Do I have a significant underlying noise problem? Is there some additional, simple testing I can do to verify that before I tear into the whole system looking for noise sources / signal suckers? Any advice along these lines would be greatly appreciated.

 

Justin in Dallas

[oberkc]

My understanding of the scene test is that it is an indication of communication robustness. Failing a scene test, as you are confirming, is not a guarantee of problems, but perhaps an indication of those in the future.

 

My experience is that scene tests can fail one second, then pass the next. I would definitely try a scene test several times, and at different times of the day. If it passes sometimes, and your system is otherwise working, I would probably not be concerned. If a scene test fails consistently, I would be investigating why. Given your effort so far, perhaps it is just one device recently added that is causing problems.

 

Anecdotally, I find that systems respond more slowly when communication is marginal (failing scene tests) and that writing changes to devices happens more slowly. I also find system reliability degraded, but not necessarily resulting a complete failure in operation.

[justin.cool]

Thanks oberkc for the quick response.

 

I have run the scene test many times and it is consistent, at the time of night when I ran it. I will try at a different time...

 

If I have to dive into it, my first thoughts were to shut off ALL unrelated breakers in the entire house and then run Scene Test and go from there......

 

However, this activity cannot be done with the wife and kids at home, as you can imagine. Thus, it will be the weekend before anything happens.....

 

Any other ideas on how to trouble shoot would be appreciated.

 

Justin in Dallas

[LeeG]

Think about any new appliances, new TV, PC, UPS, some cell phone charges can destroy powerline reliability. Turning off breakers or unplugging devices is a good technique. There is one thing that is easy to try. Since all the Scene tests involve using the ISY PLM try changing the PLM plug point using a good 3 wire extension cord. Move the test plug point as far away from where is normally is as possible. You could have lost an Access Point or someone may have moved an AP plug point not realizing the importance of where they were plugged in to begin with. Repeating the original AP Set button procedure is an easy test to do.

[Sub-Routine]

Hi Justin,

 

Do you see any activity on the AccessPoints or PLM LEDs when you have these issues? That would indicate an issue from another device.

 

The Scene Test uses the minimum Insteon command. Usually the scene commands are repeated three times but the Scene Test only uses one repeat to allow you to see errors.

 

It certainly seems as if some device is interfering.

 

Rand

[justin.cool]

Rand,

 

I finally got the chance to do some real testing, and write it up. First to answer your questions:

 

1. Yes there is Access Point activity during the unusually long Copy Scene Attributes function. Sometimes as long as 10+ minutes.

2. I have 5 access points around the house, plus 4 dual band dimmer / switchlincs, plus two signal lincs installed. I could have to juggle those, but the scenes failing the Scene Test are working 99%+ reliably in the current configuration. Only the Scene Test fails.

 

Secondly, I did some testing on one of the more complex scenes that is working very reliably, but failing scene test every time.

 

Living Room Evening Scene: (Lv Rm Even Scene)

4 controllers, and 7 lamps/lights. There are NO CFL’s in the scene. All controllers are KPLs, and the responders are either: switchlinc dimmers, or KPL dimmers, or Plug In dimmer modules. All responders and controllers react as expected, 99+% of the time.

 

Ran multiple Scene Tests on the Living Room Evening Scene.

 

Test #1: All breakers in the house were OFF except the following:

• Devices / controllers / responders in the scene

• All air conditioner units (4)

• Stand alone Jacuzzi (heater and pump run 24/7)

• Hot Water Heaters

• Signal Lincs

• Septic System

• Power for router, computer, ISY-99, etc etc to run the test

• Result: Scene turned OFF as expected, but All devices FAILED the test.

 

Test #2: Same as test #1, and turned off the breaker for some kitchen / dining room lights that also feed two of the KPLs that are controllers in the Lv Rm Evening Scene.

• Result: Scene turned OFF as expected, but All devices FAILED the test.

 

Test #3: Same as test #2, and turned off another breaker that shut down one KPL and one of the 6 lights in the scene.

• Result: Scene turned OFF as expected, but All devices FAILED the test.

 

Test #4: Same as test #3 PLUS: Turned OFF the breakers for the following:

• All air conditioner units (4)

• Stand along Jacuzzi

• Hot Water Heaters

• Signal Lincs

• Septic System

• Result: Scene turned OFF as expected, but All devices FAILED the test.

 

Test #5: For this test, all breakers in the house were OFF except the following:

• One breaker for the computer, router, ISY-99, etc etc. And this circuit has an X-10Pro, XPF- 20A wired in filter.

• ISY-99 PLM and signal linc phase coupler #2 of 2, (on a two phase dedicated breaker) (no filter here of course).

• Two breakers that power up 5 of the 7 lights in the scene and one KPL (one of 4 KPL’s in the scene). In other words, three of the four KPLs were powered OFF.

• Result: Scene turned OFF as expected, but All devices FAILED the test.

 

Bottom Line: The scene is rock solid reliable, but the scene test is NOT. This could indicate noise. However, I am not sure how to further troubleshoot. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Brian H]

SignalLincs?

Can you clarify?

You still have the older 2442 SignaLincRFs in use?

[IndyMike]

Hello Justin,

 

Referring back to some earlier posts by other members:

 

Brian_H: question on signalincs - Unfortunately, SH uses the term signalincs for many different devices. The old RF Signalinc (2442) have been reported to cause problems when mixed with Accesspoints. The passive signalincs (plug in and wire in) are good. Please specify.

 

LeeG: Noise/Signal Absorption near the PLM. Normally, when all the devices fail a scene test it points to an issue near the PLM (if it can't hear the responses, everything fails). Please have another look at Lee's post - he makes some excellent points.

 

You may have already been through this with Rand but, have you checked to make sure you don't have any V.35 devices installed?

 

Observation - You have a ton of RF devices installed (9). I'm curious whether you installed these for RF reception, or communication. If you installed for communication, it implies that you have multiple problem areas on your circuits. If that is the case, you may not be able to get a scene test to pass since it limits the message "HOPS" to 1. I 1 hop message can make it from one AP to a second AP (RF to RF) and then on the powerline. If a third AP is required to make it back to the PLM you'll be out of hops.

 

One trick that I've used in the past to isolate problems (my Fathers home) -

1) Create a scene with only 1 Lamplinc or appliancelinc.

2) Verify proper scene test operation with the LL plugged in at the PLM (note - you may need a lamp plugged into the LL to get it to respond properly).

3) Being moving the LL to other circuits and "Map" your scene test results.

 

The above gets you away from problems with individual device programming. You're using the LL as a transmitter and measuring the response at the PLM. This is much easier to perform if you have a laptop (running the admin console) that you can move around with you - saves a lot of wear and tear on the knees.

[justin.cool]

IndyMike,

 

Let me answer your questions one at a time:

 

Brian_H: question on signalincs - Unfortunately, SH uses the term signalincs for many different devices. The old RF Signalinc (2442) have been reported to cause problems when mixed with Accesspoints. The passive signalincs (plug in and wire in) are good. Please specify.

 

The Signalinc’s I have installed are 2406H’s, for passive coupling across the phases. Both are installed at each of the breaker boxes. And the second one is on a dedicated two phase breaker that ONLY has the PLM plugged in with an access point plugged in right on top of that.

 

 

You may have already been through this with Rand but, have you checked to make sure you don't have any V.35 devices installed?

 

I have done a double check and low and behold, I have two lone devices that are V.35’s, one Switchlinc dimmer, 2476D, and one Switchlinc relay, 2476S. I will contact Smarthome immediately about getting them replaced. This is probably the first thing to get fixed!

 

 

Observation - You have a ton of RF devices installed (9). I'm curious whether you installed these for RF reception, or communication. If you installed for communication, it implies that you have multiple problem areas on your circuits. If that is the case, you may not be able to get a scene test to pass since it limits the message "HOPS" to 1. I 1 hop message can make it from one AP to a second AP (RF to RF) and then on the powerline. If a third AP is required to make it back to the PLM you'll be out of hops.

 

I have a 4000 sq ft house, two floors, with a breaker boxe in each end of the house. Thus, I have had 4 access points for some time, then wound up with an extra access point when I bought a package deal. I placed them in circuits early on when I was having scene reliability issues and to get RF connectivity to my trigger lincs and remote thermostats. Many months later I was able to largely eliminate the noise problems by doing several things:

1. Going to power strips without surge suppression

2. Putting in a combo of leviton 5A inline filters, and X10 5A plug in filters

3. X-10 Pro 20A inline filters and AF120 15A plug in filter for all computer equipment.

At that point, I just left the access points where they were and everything seemed OK. As for the 4 dual band lamplinc dimmers, I just picked them up when they were on special because of the smaller overall form factor. Did not need the RF access point capability, so that capability was a freebie. Bottom line is that the 9 RF devices are really just a build up. All that said, I gather from what you are saying I should eliminate some number of these? That is somewhat frustrating with respect to the dual band lamp linc’s, as they would then be rendered useless and have to be replaced with non dual band switchlincs. Your advice here would be appreciated.

 

One trick that I've used in the past to isolate problems (my Fathers home) -

1) Create a scene with only 1 Lamplinc or appliancelinc.

2) Verify proper scene test operation with the LL plugged in at the PLM (note - you may need a lamp plugged into the LL to get it to respond properly).

3) Being moving the LL to other circuits and "Map" your scene test results.

 

The above gets you away from problems with individual device programming. You're using the LL as a transmitter and measuring the response at the PLM. This is much easier to perform if you have a laptop (running the admin console) that you can move around with you - saves a lot of wear and tear on the knees.

 

Good suggestion, if the V.35s are NOT the problem, I will give this a try, thanks!

[apostolakisl]

I have a similar thread running with similar problems.

 

I have about 60 devices (over half switchlincs). Nearly all devices are less than a year old as I just got done replacing everything that was paddle problem vintage.

 

I am curious, do your scenes pass when you execute it with the scene off to start wtih? Since installing a filterlinc on a bank of AV/HA equipment I have had 100% reliability (for 3 days now) including all Insteon activities (scenes, programs, etc). My scene tests essentially pass 100% if I start with the scene off. They have a high failure rate when they start with the scene on, even though they are just incandescent bulbs.

[justin.cool]

apostolakisl

 

I have always started with the scene ON to run the scene test, per the "directions", so I don't really know. However, I will give it a shot this weekend. My understanding is that the scene test issues a group OFF command. If that is the case, I might expect to pass the scene test, but am not an expert......????

[apostolakisl]

Yes, but who follows directions?

 

In truth, I ran a scene test after forgetting to turn it on and it passed. I got all yippee like thinking I had fixed it and then realized I hadn't started with the scene on. Then it failed, of course.

 

I don't in truth know exactly how a scene test is measuring things that starting on vs off makes a diff.

[IndyMike]

Hello Justin,

 

I have not had personal experience with the V.35's. They earned quite a reputation here on the forum for causing communication problems. As a test, you could "airgap" your suspect units to see if things improve.

 

I have a 4000 sq ft house, two floors, with a breaker boxe in each end of the house. Thus, I have had 4 access points for some time, then wound up with an extra access point when I bought a package deal. I placed them in circuits early on when I was having scene reliability issues and to get RF connectivity to my trigger lincs and remote thermostats. Many months later I was able to largely eliminate the noise problems by doing several things:

1. Going to power strips without surge suppression

2. Putting in a combo of leviton 5A inline filters, and X10 5A plug in filters

3. X-10 Pro 20A inline filters and AF120 15A plug in filter for all computer equipment.

At that point, I just left the access points where they were and everything seemed OK. As for the 4 dual band lamplinc dimmers, I just picked them up when they were on special because of the smaller overall form factor. Did not need the RF access point capability, so that capability was a freebie. Bottom line is that the 9 RF devices are really just a build up. All that said, I gather from what you are saying I should eliminate some number of these? That is somewhat frustrating with respect to the dual band lamp linc’s, as they would then be rendered useless and have to be replaced with non dual band switchlincs. Your advice here would be appreciated.

 

I would not propose that you remove your dual band/AP's. My concern was that you either had an extremely large home (10,000+) or had particularly bad circuits that were being "patched" through the use of RF devices.

 

On the contrary, our homes are similarly sized and you have done the work to eliminate problem devices from your circuits. I also highly recommend the 2406H - glad to see you have these installed.

 

My only recommendation at this point would be to locate your PLM as close to your main panel as physically possible. Powering the PLM off of one branch (phase) connected to your 2406H is what I would consider ideal.

[justin.cool]

Indy Mike,

 

Thanks for the reply. "Air-gapping" should be simple enough. Will give it a try.

 

As for my PLM placement, it is less than 1 foot from the breaker box, and the 2406H is in the dual gang box that holds the outlet for the PLM. So proximity is not an issue. However, the PLM is at the second breaker box in the house, which is at least 200 feet (cable run length) from the first breaker box. And the first breaker box has a the vast majority of the insteon devices on it.

 

Is it worthwhile to bridge the phases with another 2406H between the two breaker boxes. In other words, install a 2406H between Phase A breaker box 1 and Phase B breaker box 2? The wiring in the house is all over the place so I don't think this will be too hard, phycisally that is.

[IndyMike]

Justin,

 

I would not try additional bridging between the phases. Two passive couplers should be more than sufficient.

 

Your placement of the PLM at the second panel, next to the coupler, is rather good. With a 200' run to the main panel, the success/failure of the scene test will depend on whether you have listeners near the panel(s). The good news is, this is a dedicated run between the panels - you don't have any noise generators/absorbers on this run.

 

This could be a good application for a pair of AP's (opposite phases at each panel), but let's allow things to stabilize (airgap your V.35's) prior to re-configuring.

 

As for my PLM placement, it is less than 1 foot from the breaker box, and the 2406H is in the dual gang box that holds the outlet for the PLM. So proximity is not an issue. However, the PLM is at the second breaker box in the house, which is at least 200 feet (cable run length) from the first breaker box. And the first breaker box has a the vast majority of the insteon devices on it.

 

Is it worthwhile to bridge the phases with another 2406H between the two breaker boxes. In other words, install a 2406H between Phase A breaker box 1 and Phase B breaker box 2? The wiring in the house is all over the place so I don't think this will be too hard, phycisally that is.

[justin.cool]

IndyMike

 

Finally got to some testing this evening:

 

Test conditions

• All V35 devices were air-gapped, 8 total, 2 switchlinc (SWL) dimmers and 6 SWL relays.

- By air-gapped I mean that the SET BUTTON has been pulled out on that SWL

• Shut off circuit breaker to a set of GFCIs in garage near breaker panel #1. (Read in another posting that sometimes GFCIs can absorb signals).

• Pressed the “Test†button on the two remaining GFCIs in house. Reset button “Popped†and it was left in the popped position.

• Disconnected all three RF interface modules for the Venstar thermostats

• Unplugged ALL chargers, and other devices that have a power adapter / transformer plug, ie. Phone chargers, dust buster charger, iHome radio power adapter, etc etc.

• All Scene Tests started in the ON position unless otherwise noted.

 

I then ran Scene Test on a simple Scene with two SWLs in a three way switch configuration in an upstairs bathroom, ie. two controllers in the scene. Ran the scene test several times with consistent results from one test to the next:

- SWL with the lights as a load FAILED,

- SWL with no load SUCCEEDED.

 

I then ran Scene Test on another simple three way switch configuration for a hallway light. Ran the scene test several times with consistent results from one test to the next:

- The SWL with the light as a load SUCCEEDED,

- The SWL with no load, FAILED, consistently.

 

I then created another simple scene with a Test KPL-G (button G) and a Switchlinc relay for a ceiling fan. The Scene Test results were:

- The SWL SUCCEEDED

- The KPL-G FAILED

 

The SWL’s above were upstairs and some distance from the PLM, so I created another scene a bit closer and just as simple, Office Floor Fan. One icon plug in relay and a remote linc button. Ran Scene Test (reference as Test 15 below),

- Rlinc came up with [ignore]

- Icon relay came up as a SUCCEEDED

 

I then added a Test KPL button F, as a second controller in this scene.

NOTE: The Test KPL and Icon Relay for the floor fan are plugged into the same power strip (NO surge protector in this power strip). In addition, they are both within about 20 feet of the 2nd breaker box in the house where the PLM is plugged in. The results were:

- Rlinc came up with [ignore]

- Icon relay FAILED

- Test KPL-F SUCCEEDED

Reference Test 16 below. Note 1: The Icon device that has the fan plugged into it, now comes up as a FAILED, while the Test KPL-F comes up as SUCCEEDED. (Rlinc again comes up as “ignoreâ€).

 

For the next Scene Test (reference Test 17):

• It was the same as Test 16, but started the Scene with the fan in the OFF position.

• Identical results to 16.

 

For the next Scene Test (reference Test 18):

• Exact same conditions as Test 16, except I moved the power strip with the fan, icon relay and the test KPL to the same outlet as the PLM, which is in turn on one phase of a Signalinc 2406H hookup, and is less than 1 foot from the breaker box.

• Ran Scene Test, and got the same results as Test 16 and 17.

 

It would appear that no matter where my responder and controller are with respect to the PLM, a second device in the scene forces the FAILED condition. In other words, I have been unable to get ANY Scene Test to fully pass when there are two or more devices in the scene.

 

Bottom Line: I am at a bit of a loss as to what the next steps should be, but it appears that proximity to the PLM is not an issue.

 

_______________________________________________________________

 

 

TEST 16, 30 OCT 2010

Sat 10/30/2010 11:19:40 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 42 13 00 06

Sat 10/30/2010 11:19:40 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 42 LTOFFRR(42)

Sat 10/30/2010 11:19:40 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[ignore] RLinc #1 Button 6 0A.39.8D.6 (A 39 8D 6)

[succeeded] Test KPL - F (F FD 95 6)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

Sat 10/30/2010 11:20:24 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.42 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

TEST 17, 30 OCT 2010

Sat 10/30/2010 11:44:51 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 42 13 00 06

Sat 10/30/2010 11:44:52 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 42 LTOFFRR(42)

Sat 10/30/2010 11:44:52 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[ignore] RLinc #1 Button 6 0A.39.8D.6 (A 39 8D 6)

[succeeded] Test KPL - F (F FD 95 6)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

Sat 10/30/2010 11:45:36 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.42 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

TEST 18, 30 OCT 2010

Sat 10/30/2010 11:51:13 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 42 13 00 06

Sat 10/30/2010 11:51:13 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 42 LTOFFRR(42)

Sat 10/30/2010 11:51:13 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

 

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[ignore] RLinc #1 Button 6 0A.39.8D.6 (A 39 8D 6)

[succeeded] Test KPL - F (F FD 95 6)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Results -----

Sat 10/30/2010 11:51:58 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.42 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

[fitzpatri8]

Sounds like you did a thorough job troubleshooting. I wonder if you've got loose connections in your breaker box.

[justin.cool]

fitzpatri8,

 

About one year ago when all the noise issues popped up, I shut off all power to the house and opened up all the breaker boxes and tightened all the screws for HOT, NEUTRAL and GROUND.

 

However, I have NOT yet gone through every outlet and switch box in the house looking for loose neutrals / hots..........that would be very time consuming.

 

Justin in Dallas

[IndyMike]

Hi Justin,

 

Sorry to make you tear your system apart. I would concur that you've eliminated noise as the source of your problem. To be honest, I haven't experienced anything like what you have posted - although it is similar to what Apostolakisl has been seeing.

 

A few additional things to try -

1) A number of your V.35 units are relays. On older relay units, pulling the air gap switch did not disconnect the unit from the powerline. I'm not sure if this is the case on the V.35 units, but it's worth checking. See if you can still communicate with these units.

 

2) Try restoring your KPL and Icon with the units plugged in next to the PLM. This should eliminate any programming errors that may have arisen while the V.35 units were still enabled. Re-try your scene test.

 

3) Create a new scene with just the KPL and Icon and make them both responders. Re-try your scene test.

 

4) Please post the version numbers of your KPL, Icon and PLM. If I have the same unit version (possible) I'll try to setup a parallel test.

 

Just remembered that you have 100+ devices installed. Have you ever run a PLM link count? It's possible you have overrun the link table for your PLM.

 

This can be done from the \tools\diagnostics\show PLM links table. This will take quite a while to complete - if there is any insteon activity during the PLM scan, the routine will abort. With my old 2412S PLM, I would install two filters between the PLM and the line to prevent communication from interrupting the process.

 

If you have a dual band PLM, you'll likely need to kill all your RF communication as well (or shield the PLM to prevent RF reception).

 

Edit: Just to make sure, I dug out a V.2D KPL and a V.28 Icon Lamp Linc Dimmer and tried some testing. I've run the scene test with the units added in various orders (KPL Controller first, then LL), with and without accesspoints. Can't seem to get a failure on this end.

[justin.cool]

Indy Mike,

 

Thanks very much for the effort and quick response. I have attempted to do everything you recommended. See below:

 

 

1) A number of your V.35 units are relays. On older relay units, pulling the air gap switch did not disconnect the unit from the powerline. I'm not sure if this is the case on the V.35 units, but it's worth checking. See if you can still communicate with these units.

 

#1: Done, all devices failed communication attempts via Query when the SET tab was pulled out.

 

2) Try restoring your KPL and Icon with the units plugged in next to the ISY. This should eliminate any programming errors that may have arisen while the V.35 units were still enabled. Re-try your scene test.

 

#2: Completed the restore while plugged in next to the PLM. Same results from Scene Test: (Started with scene ON, then OFF, same results).

- Office Floor Fan (Icon) FAILED

- KPL-F SUCCEEDED

 

3) Create a new scene with just the KPL and Icon and make them both responders. Re-try your scene test.

 

#3 Created a new scene with the Test KPL and the Icon for the floor fan. Set up both as responders.

- Scene name: Office Floor Test Scene

- Condition: Icon and the KPL are both plugged into the same outlet as the PLM, as before. Note that there is an access point piggybacked on top of the PLM, as originally set up in May 2009.

 

Scene Test 23 (See log below)

- Started with Fan On

- Ran Scene Test on Office Floor Test Scene

- Office Floor Fan (Icon relay) FAILED

- Test KPL-B FAILED

 

Scene Test 24 (See log below)

- Same as 23 EXCEPT started with the fan turned OFF.

- Office Floor Fan (Icon relay) FAILED

- Test KPL-B SUCCEEDED

 

Scene Test 25 (See log below)

- Same as Test 23: Started with Fan On

- Office Floor Fan (Icon relay) FAILED

- Test KPL-B SUCCEEDED

 

Scene Test 26

- Repeat of Test 25 for consistency

- Same results:

- Office Floor Fan (Icon relay) FAILED

- Test KPL-B SUCCEEDED

 

4) Please post the version numbers of your KPL, Icon and PLM. If I have the same unit version (possible) I'll try to setup a parallel test.

 

KPL: 2486DWH6 with Firmware V.2D, Sticker on the KPL shows V1.8.

This KPL was converted to an 8 button KPL.

 

PLM: 2412S, Power Line Modem. Rev 3.1 sticker;

PLM Info/Status: PLM 0F.D5.9D V85 / Connected

 

Icon: 2856S3 On/Off adapter V.32; No rev sticker on the Icon.

5) Just remembered that you have 100+ devices installed. Have you ever run a PLM link count? It's possible you have overrun the link table for your PLM.

 

PLM Link Table

Ran Show PLM Link Table twice.

- PLM isolated by two filters: One XPF 20A Wired In filter and one AF120 15A plug in filter from Advanced Control Technologies.

 

Both times the Link count was 150 Hexadecimal / 337 decimal.

 

_______________________________________________________________

EVENT LOG FROM SCENE TESTS

 

TEST 23, 31 OCT 2010

Sun 10/31/2010 09:25:28 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 46 13 00 06

Sun 10/31/2010 09:25:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BE.5E 0F.D5.9D 03 6E 4B (4B)

Sun 10/31/2010 09:26:04 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BF.14 0F.D5.9D 07 6E 4D (4D)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[Failed] Test KPL - B (F FD 95 2)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

Sun 10/31/2010 09:26:13 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.46 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

TEST 24, 31 OCT 2010

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 46 13 00 06

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 46 LTOFFRR(46)

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BF.14 0F.D5.9D 07 6F 49 (49)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[succeeded] Test KPL - B (F FD 95 2)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

Sun 10/31/2010 09:31:00 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.46 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

TEST 25, 31 OCT 2010

Sun 10/31/2010 09:36:49 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 46 13 00 06

Sun 10/31/2010 09:36:49 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 46 LTOFFRR(46)

Sun 10/31/2010 09:36:49 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[succeeded] Test KPL - B (F FD 95 2)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

 

 

[IndyMike]

Hello Justin,

 

I was beginning to think we were at a dead end until I looked at your test logs below. Seems there are some "other" things going on here. I am not all that good at decoding Insteon command/response codes, these don't appear normal.

 

 

EVENT LOG FROM SCENE TESTS

 

TEST 23, 31 OCT 2010

Sun 10/31/2010 09:25:28 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 46 13 00 06

Sun 10/31/2010 09:25:29 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BE.5E 0F.D5.9D 03 6E 4B (4B)

Sun 10/31/2010 09:26:04 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BF.14 0F.D5.9D 07 6E 4D (4D)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[Failed] Test KPL - B (F FD 95 2)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

Sun 10/31/2010 09:26:13 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.46 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

 

Both of your devices responded in the above. They just didn't respond properly. - Incorrect - See Lee's post below. These responses are from a different device(s) not included in your scene command.

The codes 03 6E 4B should have been 61 13 46. The "6E" is the command that the units are responding to. The "6E" command is listed as "Reserved" in my copy of the command tables (which is rather dated): http://www.insteon.net/pdf/INSTEON_Command_Tables_20070925a.pdf

 

TEST 24, 31 OCT 2010

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [GRP-RX ] 02 61 46 13 00 06

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 0F.FD.95 0F.D5.9D 61 13 46 LTOFFRR(46)

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:15 PM : [standard-Cleanup Ack][0F.FD.95-->ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

Sun 10/31/2010 09:30:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 11.BF.14 0F.D5.9D 07 6F 49 (49)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

[Failed] Office Floor Fan (A B6 59 1)

[succeeded] Test KPL - B (F FD 95 2)

----- Office Floor Fan Test Test Results -----

Sun 10/31/2010 09:31:00 PM : [iNST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.46 CF 13 00 06 LTOFFRR(00)

 

In the above your KPL responded properly. The Icon also responded, but again, not to the proper command. Incorrect - this again was from a different device address than your Icon.

The "6F" command code is also listed as "Reserved".

 

There may be completely rational reasons for the above behavior - I'm not all that conversant at Insteon Speak. We could really use some input from the UD team here.

 

From my perspective, either your PLM is requesting the wrong information, or another unit is interrupting the cleanup process.

 

Beyond that, your link count appears a bit low for 100 devices. I threw some numbers into the ISY Link calculator and came up with over 800 links for your install: http://www.universal-devices.com/tools/insteon/calc_plm_links.htm

 

 

Edit: Had another (wild) thought. Since you have some rather nice filters, could you place your PLM and your scene devices on a filtered circuit and re-try (remove your AP from the PLM)? If the scene does does not work on an isolated circuit, I would think it would indicate a problem with the PLM.

 

If the isolated circuit test works, you may have another "offender" in the system.

 

2nd Edit: Added comments per Lee's observation below. Device address of responders doesn't match the unit scene addresses.

[LeeG]

Justin,

 

What devices have the Insteon addresses of

 

11.BE.5E

11.BF.14

 

They look like commands a tstat adaptor might issue (6E & 6F). According to the flags these are not related to the Scene test as they are missing the Group indicator bit. I suspect these are Insteon messages flowing on the powerline unrelated to the Scene test. This type of message flow independent of the Scene test can cause the Scene process to be aborted.

 

If the above are not Insteon addresses of installed devices there is a significant problem somewhere resulting in addresses from devices that do not exist. I doubt that with Insteon.

 

Lee

[IndyMike]

Lee,

 

Good catch - I didn't even look at the device address.

 

I'll correct my response to Justin based on your observation.

 

I'll admit to being totally ignorant of the workings of the thermostat adapter communications. If these communications are what interrupted the scene test group cleanup (twice within 5 minutes), they seem a bit "excessive". Is there a way to reduce the frequency (increase the time interval) of the communication?

[justin.cool]

Lee and Indy,

 

The devices:

 

11.BE.5E and 11.BF.14 are two of three Venstar Thermostats with RF interface, and they are NOT related to the scene at all.

 

These thermostats create regular traffic every few seconds, at least. I noticed this during my Scene Testing on 30 Oct, and therefore I disconnected all three of the RF interfaces from the Thermostats. Thus, in the testing on 30 Oct that I listed earlier in this string there were no responses from these devices.

 

On 31 Oct I ran Scene tests with and without the Thermostats and their interfaces and did not notice any different results in some limited testing. Therefore, I left them in place. In other words, I got the same FAILED and SUCCEEDED with and without the thermostats. However, I will admit I did very limited testing, say 3 - 4 tries or so.

 

I will try and run the Scene Test with the PLM isolated by filters and without the access point, later this evening.

 

Thanks again for your great support, really appreciate it.

[LeeG]

Justin

 

Do you know what is causing the tstat adaptors to generate such a volume of Insteon traffic?