Appliancelinc's to stop Vampire Draw?

[Scottmichaelj]

I recently had solar put on our home however I am still using a considerable amount of electricity, which got me thinking about "vampire draw". Anyone use Appliancelincs to help turn on/off devices to stop vampire draw? I have universal remotes in all my rooms so I was thinking that maybe I could create a program that turns on the appliancelinc when I hit the macro to turn on my TVs and receivers. So when the power is off the XBox 360, powered sub woofer, receiver, etc are all "OFF" then when I want to watch something I hit the macro on my remote which turns on the applaincelinc and is all behind the scenes and automated. This way its cheaper than putting in a bunch of new "green" switched surge protectors and you could possibly narrow down specific items normally not used in other areas of the house. In extreme savings you could maybe for a kitchen have a KPL button to activate the appliances like the coffee pot, toaster oven, etc. Not sure how well this would work or if it would just tossing out ideas. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Mark Sanctuary]

I am experimenting with it and am going to track it with a Brultech power monitor system. Here is HAI's estimates on average power used in the house.

 

56% HVAC

15% Lighting

15% Appliances

14% Water heating

 

With these numbers in mind I figure I can save a percent or two each month in reducing some of the household products like stereos and TVs. I do NOT plan to turn off devices that have clocks or recording devices like my Tivos. My computer I have setup to sleep on its own and eventually we are switching to laptops that are more efficient than a desktop.

 

The trick is that my family will not accept a reduction in comfort or functionality in the house so my reduction in power usage has to keep that in mind. Vampire loads are a small drain compared to how much HVAC consumes in a house so I don't expect a huge savings from vampire loads but it will be something.

 

Thanks,

[Algorithm]

Like Mark, I expect that 'vampire' draw (in a non-automated home) would be small in comparison with the total electric usage. However, I would love to see some reliable figures to confirm that.

 

You mentioned your A/V gear. I use an ApplianceLinc to control my powered sub-woofer, but only because it does not have built-in auto-shutoff. Remember, though, that the ApplianceLinc is itself a vampire, so there would likely be no saving if it was used to control a single vampire load. By controlling several loads with a single module, more savings could be realized.

 

But there are so many vampire loads which you don't want to loose power to, for one reason or another. Anything with a clock, of course, and anything with a remote control, since the remote would no longer be able to turn it on.

 

[i really hate all those clocks in the kitchen (A man with two watches never knows what time it is?)--it seems every appliance now has to have a clock built into it! I try to buy ones without clocks (coffeemakers, etc.), and an additional benefit of those without clocks is that there is quite often no vampire draw.]

 

But in an automated home, I have a suspicion that by far the largest vampire draw is all those switches and modules! I tried hard (as did many others) on the Smarthome forum, to coax them into giving us some specs. on the power draw of their switches/modules, but they would not do so. But, just add up the number of switches/modules in an average size home (I have, I think, about 50 - 60), apply a reasonable draw guesstimate, figure your local power cost, and be shocked by how it adds up!

[Mark Sanctuary]

Remember, though, that the ApplianceLinc is itself a vampire, so there would likely be no saving if it was used to control a single vampire load.

Darrell, A buddy of mine and I tested the INSTEON devices with one of those Kill-A-Watt things and they don't even register on it. The current draw on INSTEON devices is quite low.

 

Thanks,

[TJF1960]

About 6 months ago I wired 3 kpl's into a kill-a-watt meter (because 1 or 2 together wouldn't register on the meter). It seems to me with 3 wired up the meter registered 4 watts. So I figured on 1.4 watts per kpl. Haven't measured any SL or appliancelincs yet. But if you figure any SL or appliancelinc on drawing about a watt a piece....it would be like burning 1 60w or 100w light bulb 24/7! If my measurements were even in the ballpark.

 

Seems to me IndyMike did some tests a while back but I didn't find the link.

 

Tim

[apostolakisl]

Remember, though, that the ApplianceLinc is itself a vampire, so there would likely be no saving if it was used to control a single vampire load.

Darrell, A buddy of mine and I tested the INSTEON devices with one of those Kill-A-Watt things and they don't even register on it. The current draw on INSTEON devices is quite low.

 

Thanks,

 

I have never tested this but have seen a lot of opinions. Most come to the conclusion that Insteon draws about 2 or 3 watts per device. Something like 60ma with a .25 power factor.

[Mark Sanctuary]

it would be like burning 1 60w or 100w light bulb 24/7! If my measurements were even in the ballpark.

With using this calculator for a rough estimate we have about $20 to $40 a year to run automation in the house. If I reduce some of the vampire loads the savings will pay for the yearly automation costs which includes all the switches in the house not just the vampire ApplianceLincs.

 

Thanks,

[Algorithm]

I have never tested this but have seen a lot of opinions. Most come to the conclusion that Insteon draws about 2 or 3 watts per device. Something like 60ma with a .25 power factor.

 

it would be like burning 1 60w or 100w light bulb 24/7! If my measurements were even in the ballpark.

With using this calculator for a rough estimate we have about $20 to $40 a year to run automation in the house. If I reduce some of the vampire loads the savings will pay for the yearly automation costs which includes all the switches in the house not just the vampire ApplianceLincs.

 

Thanks,

As apostolakis says, many opinions. Just for example, at a cost of ten cents per kilowatt/hour (and most, including myself, are paying more, so adjust accordingly), one continuous watt will cost 88 cents per year. Doesn't sound like much?

 

Well, for my 60 loads, at two watts per load, using the calculator Mark linked, that's $105, and at three watts per, its $158. Remember to adjust upward based on electric cost. For some, that may be insignificant. For me, it is not.

 

But whether or not the actual cost is significant to the particular individual, it must be taken into account when figuring any cost savings. Sometimes there will be little to no savings; sometimes the net may be a loss.

 

Having said that, there are many more benefits than just power savings!

[apostolakisl]

It really baffles me that Smarthome publishes no official power consumption rating for its devices. ???? How do they get away with this? The odd thing is, as I understand, some electric meters (the ones the power company puts on your house to bill you) will not necessarily accurately account for the electricity that is consumed via items with low power factors. In other words, my 60 Insteon devices may actually be using x watts, but the electric co. only charges me for some fraction of that. And my neighbor with a different meter may be billed a different fraction! Crazy!

 

So is electricity that is consumed but not detected by the meter actually electricity? Does a falling tree make a noise if no one is there to hear it?

[Sub-Routine]

Here it is:

Overhead current? I'm sooooooo confused....

 

Rand

 

Seems to me IndyMike did some tests a while back but I didn't find the link.

 

Tim

[IndyMike]

Hello All,

 

As usual, I'm rather late to the party... I wanted to share some additional thoughts on this subject. This will likely create more confusion, but here goes anyway.

 

1) SH has apparently been improving the Power Factor of their devices. Older SH devices (and other manufacturers) exhibited very poor PF. Newer devices appear to be in the .8 to .9 range. I do not know if this is Fed mandated or other (see below).

 

2) High PF is good for the utilities, and for your home. It will create fewer harmonics in your home and power distribution system and the utility requires less "capacity" to deliver the required current. For most of our HA devices, this has been below the radar (almost insignificant). However, if everything in our homes had a perfect power factor ( 1 - totally resistive load) X10 would still be the predominant HA technology. Low power factor devices and transients are what is killing the powerline communication.

 

3) High PF devices do not necessarily translate into lower utility bills. A PF corrected device may well draw more power than a non-corrected device. This is a difference between immediate and long term pay back. You will not be charged for a low power factor device directly (short term power consumption). In the long term, this device will cause problems within your home and for the utility (they simply raise rates to account for the load). In general, high PF devices are better for your home and the utility (even if you don't see the immediate effect at the meter).

 

4) Totally passive devices (filters) also consume power. I have a filterlinc plugged in and the instantaneous draw is 3.4 W corrected. While these units are "tuned" to 130 KHz, they also draw power at 60 Hz.

 

5) Most of the power measurement devices that I've seen (UPM and Kill-A-Watt) are designed to handle a single load device. In my opinion, they are not designed to be used for multiple devices - do not try to measure your entire A/V system through a power strip. Both of my devices get "confused" when they are presented with complex waveforms from multiple devices. This is most likely due to the varying PF presented by the loads. In other words, if you are measuring multiple resistive loads (all PF=1) they will likely handle it well. If you are trying to measure your PC (PF= . and your monitor (PF = .5) they will likely have problems.

 

IM

[chrisalbrecht]

Hi All, I just wanted to share some anecdotal info on SH device power usage.. I'm participating in a 'Smart Home' pilot carried out by the OPA (Ontario Power Authority) here in Canada. The SH system is 1 of 3 being tested. Naturally I was interested in the vampire/phantom loads that these devices would add and asked Steve Lee of Smart Home Business Development/National Sales/Training Manager about this and he told me that while the SH devices that utilized the older engines used a few watts of power, just about all of the new devices use less than 1 watt, with most being approximate 0.65w (not sure about PF though..)

 

Again this is simply anecdotal evidence, but it might be worth something considering the source.

 

Also, I've been using an ApplianceLinc that is scheduled to turn off my home entertainment system while I'm sleeping and away at work. The biggest vampire draw of my Home Ent devices is my DVR/PVR @ 30w, which are normally not a candidate for switching on and off (via smartstrip, etc) due to the time needed to boot up. The only potential downside is it won't record anything during these periods - but generally we only record shows that are on during evening hours when we are home and the DVR is scheduled to be on, so for now there haven't been any adverse effects. Although it's not perfect, it cuts more than 50% of the vampire draw from the home ent system, with no apparent sacrifices in terms of usability (depends on recording schedules of course...).

[fitzpatri8]

One caution about shutting down the DVR--it needs to be on both at the time of recording *and* long enough to download current tv schedule information. If it doesn't capture schedule info in a timely fashion, you'll eventually start to miss scheduled recordings.

[chrisalbrecht]

That's a good point to consider. It's still scheduled to be on for 7 hours each evening, and all day during weekends, so that should give it plenty of time to download tv schedules.

[gatchel]

As an aside...I always thought that being billed in kWh meant that power factor had nothing to do with the bill. Commercial applications are a different story.

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong but power factor should have no effect on your residential monthly electric bill.

[Mark Sanctuary]

Also, I've been using an ApplianceLinc that is scheduled to turn off my home entertainment system while I'm sleeping and away at work. The biggest vampire draw of my Home Ent devices is my DVR/PVR @ 30w, which are normally not a candidate for switching on and off (via smartstrip, etc) due to the time needed to boot up. The only potential downside is it won't record anything during these periods - but generally we only record shows that are on during evening hours when we are home and the DVR is scheduled to be on, so for now there haven't been any adverse effects. Although it's not perfect, it cuts more than 50% of the vampire draw from the home ent system, with no apparent sacrifices in terms of usability (depends on recording schedules of course...).

 

FYI: Since a DVR is a computer with a hard-disk I would never recommend killing the power to these units. Their is always a chance the hard-disk and/or data could be damaged. In fact I know some friends that have gone to the extent to put UPS protection on their DVRs and TV projectors just to protect them from damage.

 

Thanks,

[IndyMike]

Hello gatchel,

 

I believe I understand what you are stating, and agree with you. Power factor applies when you are measuring in Volt - Amps (you must take phase into account). Residential electric meters do take phase into account and we are only billed for "real" power. The best way to make sure is by example.

 

1) Device 1 draws 1A @120V (120 V-Amps) with a PF=1 (in phase - resistive): You will be charged for the real power = 1A X 120V * 1 PF = 120 Watts.

2) Device 2 draws 1A @120V (120 V-Amps) with a PF=.1 (capacitive or inductive): You will be charged again for the real power = 1A X 120V X 0.1 PF = 12W

 

I may have confused the issue somewhat in my previous power where I was talking about power factor correction. In a perfect world, we could correct device 2) above as follows:

 

2) Device 2 (corrected) draws 0.1A @120V (120 V-Amps) with a PF=1. You are charged for 0.1A X 120 V X0.1 PF = 12W.

 

In the real word, the Power factor correction circuitry will consume some power, small though it may be. In the end, it's a trade between higher device cost (not good), lower distortion levels in your home (good), slightly higher power consumption (not so good), and reduced loading on your electric provider (which they will of course pass along to the consumer in reduced rates).

 

As an aside...I always thought that being billed in kWh meant that power factor had nothing to do with the bill. Commercial applications are a different story.

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong but power factor should have no effect on your residential monthly electric bill.

[apostolakisl]

As an aside...I always thought that being billed in kWh meant that power factor had nothing to do with the bill. Commercial applications are a different story.

 

Someone correct me if I am wrong but power factor should have no effect on your residential monthly electric bill.

 

You are right, the deal here, however, is how are we determing the watt draw of the devices. Power Factor comes into play because watts equals amps x volts x pf. The electric co doesn't penalize residential users whose homes are low on the pf scale like they might to a commercial site. 120 watt costs the same whether it is 1 amp at pf 1 or 2 amps at pf .5 in the residential world. But if no one told you the pf, you would assume the 2 amp load was 240 watts.

[Scottmichaelj]

Good info here. Heres what started making me look into this more.

 

I went on vacation recently for 10 days and turned off most everything I could. I "shutdown" my computers, and unplugged the coffee pot, toaster, turned off all the heating/air (weather is perfect now so dont need it) and when I left I had 5440 KwH on my new PGE Smart Meter. When I returned home I was shocked to see it at 6004! Thats 564 KwH over 10 days and 56.4 per day without being home with solar! The only things turned on were my low voltage landscape lights in the backyard from sunset to 9pm, along with the front patio light (with 2 cfls, not sure the wattage atm) and a carriage light on the front of my garage with 3 small bulbs @ maybe 20w. So even still after the solar on the house is producing electricity and I am still +56 kwh not being home! I have 26 Sunpower SPR 230 watt panels installed so I should be producing a decent amount of power each day. I have about 100 Smarthome devices and two DVRs that are always getting power. I am wondering now if my plasma TV, AVR, AMP, 2 powers Subs, all in standby still must be sucking down power. Thats why I been thinking alot about adding a Appliancelinc to certain areas to curb the vampire draw. My neighbors have smaller solar systems then I do (house tiles not panels) and they "say" that their bill is around $20 per month. When I press them to give me more details most have no idea (nor interest) what the actual kwh usage is. I just cant believe that my solar while away still could not at least produced enough electricity to break even with the normal household appliances. So I am trying to look deeper into figuring out why. Just purchased a Kill-A-Watt and am going to go around and see what things are using when supposedly "off". I also wonder how do you know what devices from SH are the lower power factors vs the older ones? Is it via firmware number? I am sure the KPLs draw more power too that they have more lights on when "on".

[IndyMike]

Hello huddadudda,

 

Saying you were shocked is being a bit polite. If I had used that much power while the house was empty the paramedics would have paid me a visit.

 

Seriously - 56.4 KwHr/day (2350 Watts continuous draw) is not vampire current. Not when you are pumping in nearly 6 KwHr when the sun is out.

 

I would be looking for "failed" major appliances:

 

1) Electric water heater that is dumping (bad pop-off valve or overtemping).

2) Freezers/refrigerators with bad seals (these are not primary - probably don't draw enough power).

3) Defective heat pump.

 

Not sure what else could draw that much power - I don't think it's a "light" appliance.

[fitzpatri8]

Do you have a pool or hot tub the neighbors might have been heating & using while you were gone? Any stray electric cords that seem to be headed toward the houses of the neighbors reporting $20/mo electric bills?!?

[TJF1960]

Hello huddadudda,

 

Saying you were shocked is being a bit polite. If I had used that much power while the house was empty the paramedics would have paid me a visit.

 

 

No doubt! And here I was crying over the 10kw my house draws a day when no one is home.

 

Tim

[Scottmichaelj]

Now you guys are scaring me! Somehow I have come to this sort of rational that this was normal. To make matters worse - I purchased my home in 2006, and have a gas dryer, gas water heater, plus we bought a new samsung fridge to replace the GE profile we had which actually has a better energy star rating then the "old one" that was an 2005/2006 year model. Not sure about the Heat Pump - we have a "Smart Vent" too that helps circulate cool air in at nights and is supposed to save money versus running the air on cool nights in the summer. Which is a bummer though because its a different thermostat then normal which I cant change to a insteon/isy program. I digress. I also thought about installing a lager air conditioning unit to see if that helped. One that produced more flow or more energy efficient. The only drawback is I dont know that the cost would justify the savings or how to calculate that. Does anyone else? You cant really trust a sales guy who you call asking that. Of course they will say it does!

 

I think this weekend I will either walk around and unplug things and see what the meter reads or turn off circuits to see if I can narrow anything solid down. Last month alone I used 1400 kwh with solar!

[chrisalbrecht]

I agree, 56kWh per day in an unoccupied house is unheard of. I'm developing an electricity audit procedure for the organization I work for, and I've never seen anything like it. I'd love to audit your house to get to the bottom of it.

Does your 'Smart Vent' use your furnace blower to circulate air throughout the house? If so and it has a PSC blower motor then your furnace could easily draw 600-800w+ in addition to the air exchanger which probably draws another 200w.. but this still comes nowhere close to adding up to what you are reporting.

Also I've found that there are a lot of gas appliances out there that draw a moderate amount of electricity when they are in use. Dryers and Ranges utilize ignition rods that glow red hot even after the gas has been ignited (for safety reasons) and use 300-400w steady when the burner is on. But this should only be a factor when you are home and actually using these devices.

I agree with IndyMike, I think that there must be a more serious problem somewhere.

You may find that a Kill-A-Watt won't get you too far due to devices and appliances that are hard wired and therefore unmeasurable with the plug-in meter.

I'd highly suggest that you get a TED5000 meter on the panel ASAP and use it to determine your base load, and diagnose/determine what is using so much power. It'll likely pay for itself in no time.

 

Also, I'm not sure how to definitively tell between the old and new SH devices, but Steve Lee of SH told me that the older ones were much heavier than the new ones as they had transformers inside them.

 

Do let us know if you find the cause of your unusually high usage.

[IndyMike]

huddadudda,

 

How long have you had the Solar panel system?

 

I'm wondering if the inverter may have a defect that is actually absorbing power from the mains when the system is not supplying. Can you disconnect the system after sundown to look for effects (day to day changes in power consumption)?

 

You also posted that in the previous month you consumed 1400 kWh. Based on your "away" usage of 56.4 kWh/day. you're moving at a 1692 kWh clip for the month - wrong direction for being away for 10 days.

 

The Insteon units typically draw a watt or less depending on the device. The power factor is not an issue with the power consumption. All of these devices are low power and are orders of magnitude away from what you are seeing in consumption.

 

You also mentioned your A/C unit - these are rated by SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio). If you home was built in 2006, it likely has a "energy star" unit with a rating of 14 SEER - that's far more efficient than my 12 year old unit. I think we're still an order of magnitude away here.

 

As far as size is concerned, larger "over-sized" A/C units are less efficient than smaller units that run more often. A correctly sized unit will run near 100% on the hottest day of the year and still draw less power than a larger unit that cycles.