Appliancelinc's to stop Vampire Draw?

[dougspence]

huddadudda,

Is your main service line from the meter to the house buried? if so, a nick or other insulation failure can cause significant current bleed to ground. I had this problem some years ago and only found it when one of the buried service wires finally corroded through and failed altogether. After repairing the break, electrical usage dropped off significantly.

[Scottmichaelj]

Think I resolved it! I went through the house circuits last weekend and didnt find anything strange or power hungry, so I called PG&E and spoke with a manager who I had to convince to come out and check my new "smart meter" they installed after the solar was put in. When I got home from work this week I saw the notice on my door that they replaced the meter, but of course no notes of what they found. However it now appears during the day when I am not at home the solar is producing enough power that I am actually generating on average an extra 1kw per hour more. So I would say that the meter was defective. I tried calling PGE to find out specifically if they found anything wrong with the meter and to see about a refund/credit for power used but I am getting nowhere fast and the corporate response of "without further testing of the actual meter and due to the fluctuation of power that can be consumed it would be hard for us to determine a proper refund for you even if it was determined the smart meter was defective, which we havent and its unknown where that meter is at this time." Of course they would say that. Regardless I now feel good knowing while away the house isnt using more than producing when things are OFF. Its winter so with the days shorter and no need ATM for AIR or HEAT this is good. It looks like my solar is producing about 11kw hours so that is good too. Thanks for the info everyone.

 

Now I still think I can squeeze out a little more savings though with the appliancelinc's by cutting off the "standby power" for items like my XBox 360, powered subwoofer, receiver, amp while in standby. For those just those items I found when I hooked up the kill-a-watt to it that even while off I am still drawing about 50watts or more total. Plus I found a printer that in standby is using 35w but I cant do anything about that because if I turn it off totally it warms up each time and wastes toner which is more expensive than power! One other computers in standby is sucking down 30w along with the DVRs! So there is a vampire draw it just depends on if you can cut down on some of it to help. Cant do anything with the DVRs or computers though.

[IndyMike]

Hello huddadudda,

 

Congratulations on your new found wealth. That quite a turnaround - from -2kWh unoccupied to +1kWh.

 

Realistically, it will take some time before your utility can assess how much they may owe you (assuming they find a problem with the meter). They will likely average your power over a period of time to get a baseline to compare with. In short, this could take months.

 

Now at least you can use the Kill a Watt for what it was intended for - finding the pesky vampire devices. As you noted - laser printers are problem items. You also correctly noted that some laser units consume more dollars in ink when cycled than the standby power cost.

 

You have previously asked about the power consumption of the Insteon units. Over the years I've seen between 1 - 2 watts from various devices. The KPL's do appear to draw more, but it's not due to the led's (at least not the on state of the led's).

 

As a side note, I've been testing some "new" V5.2 and V6.0 SWL dimmers. These appear to be significantly better than previous devices. So much so that I'm still trying to make myself believe the numbers I'm seeing.

[TJF1960]

Yes, congrats huddadudda, that is awesome news! It makes you wonder how many of us have defective meters, maybe not as defective as yours but still.... I wonder what the acceptable tolerance is specified at?

 

Hello huddadudda,

 

As a side note, I've been testing some "new" V5.2 and V6.0 SWL dimmers. These appear to be significantly better than previous devices. So much so that I'm still trying to make myself believe the numbers I'm seeing.

 

Hi IndyMike, In your tests are the "new" V5.0 and 6.0 dimmers in the 1-2 watt draw or lower?

 

Thanks,

Tim

[IndyMike]

Hi Tim,

 

Up till now, my Kill A Wat and UPM meters seem to have done a credible job measuring the Insteon device off power. This has been on the order of 1 - 2 watts for most devices. I've run both long term (100+ hour) accumulated tests and instantaneous tests on the devices. The Kill A Watt appears particularly good at determining low power consumption and PF (the instantaneous and long term numbers matched).

 

I'm currently testing a V5.15 2476D with a date code of 10/24. It registers zero A, Zero W, and more surprising zero VA on the Kill A Watt. Obviously, this device is below a threshold where the Kill A Watt cannot measure Instant power consumption. I'm still having a hard time believing the degree of change between this and other devices I've tested (including X10 and Zwave). I've done everything that I can think of to ensure the switch is active, Including linking to it with the ISY and using it as a control for other units - all appears good.

 

As of this morning, I finally got an indication of 0.01kWh consumed after 41.46 hours. That's on the order of 0.25 W, but the accuracy is horrible due to the display resolution (could be anywhere between 0.12 and .34 W).

 

I need to let this run for a couple hundred hours to get the accuracy to an acceptable level. When it gets there, I'll start a new post.

[TJF1960]

Thanks IM. That is pretty incredible! I like it…The only problem for me now is that I want to replace all my devices, again. Similar to last year when the piezo buzzers were added and the LED indicators were made dimmable on the SL’s. Oh, I need to get a life….

 

 

Thanks,

Tim

[IndyMike]

Hi Tim,

 

At this point I'm guardedly optimistic.

 

I also was wondering about replacing some of my older switches so I ran some numbers.

 

Current SWL's cost $46

My cost /kW-h is $0.08

Assume "old" device power = 2W (worst case).

Assume "new" device power = 0W (unrealistic).

 

Even with the above "worst case" assumptions, it would take me ~ 33 years to pay off the cost of a new switch in power savings alone.

 

There are some side benefits - your new switches will not be adding 2W of power to the cooling load of your home, but the numbers don't work for my power cost. I'm an realist, and I'd be surprised if I or the switches would last that long.

 

I am extremely happy to see that SH is continuing to improve the design of their products. I'm a designer and had, in the past, questioned how any HA manufacturer could put forth products with 2W standby power and poor power-factors. This is not a shot at SH - most of the HA products have measurable standby consumption and poor power factors (X10, Leviton, PCS, ACT). Although it's a bit too early to tell, SH appears to be on their way to correcting both of these issues - again, guardedly optimistic.

[TJF1960]

Good point. Even if you were to sell the old SWL on eBay (they seem to fetch about half of retail) you would still be looking at 16.5 years. Then if you pay double what you pay per kWh it would still be 8.25 yrs, still outside of the extended warranty.

 

By the way, 8 cents per kWh? You must have solar? If not, where do you live? We are paying 12 cents to 30 cents a kWh.

 

Thanks,

Tim

[IndyMike]

Tim,

 

I'm in extreme northern Indiana (Michigan line is 200 yards north) in a little berg outside South Bend.

 

I'm looking at my bill now, and with all the taxes, fees, and adjustments I'm a $0.083 per kW-h. Without the extras, it's $0.07/kW-h. We've traditionally had low power costs in this area - not altogether sure why. Our local utility actually shut down a hydro plant on the river a number of years back because the maintenance costs were getting too high.

 

Solar doesn't pay off in my area - we're too far North. An additional consideration is Lake Michigan to our northwest. It generates significant cloud cover (and snow) this time of year. In the fall/winter months we refer to it as perma-cloud. It does make giving directions to the area rather easy - start in Indianapolis and drive north to the clouds/lake effect snow. You've found South Bend.

[apostolakisl]

.08/kwh must be the cheapest anywhere in the US. I thought we had it pretty good at .11/kwh to .13/kwh depending on the season. The first 500kwh are about 4 cents cheaper.

 

I hear the suckers in California are paying more than .40/kwh. For them, it would be very much worth considering selling their old ones to people who live in your neighborhood and buying new ones for themselves.

 

But one more good reason to not live in the land of warped perceptions, morals, and lifestyles.

[TJF1960]

Hey now, be nice. I was born and raised (and still live ) in California. Not all Californian’s have warped perceptions, morals, and lifestyles (at least WE don’t think so! )

 

I am not sure how it is in other parts of the country but here PG&E has a tier system (I would guess it is pretty much the same all over though). The first tier (which they call Baseline Quantity) is 478.5 kWh (for our house) and is billed at a rate of $0.11877 per. The next tier is 101-130% of baseline billed at $0.13502, The next tier is 131-200% of baseline billed at $0.29062. I don’t know how many tiers they have but I suppose it could climb up to $0.40 a kWh.

 

Tim

[apostolakisl]

OK, not everyone is warped.

 

Our tier is just the first 500kwh at about .07/kwh. After that it is all the same at about .11 to .13 (summer higher).

 

Someone on cocoon tech who lives in northern CA stated he paid $.40/kwh.

 

Anyway, I live in Austin and people are fleeing CA for Austin. It's making our housing prices go up (I know, you are jealous).

[madbrain]

I'm also looking to use home automation to reduce vampire draw. My PG&E SmartMeter has been usually showing 800 Watts instant usage for my house with no lights and no devices on. That's a lot of standby power. It amounts to 19.2 kWh per day, which is 58% of my total electrical usage for a 4700 sq ft house. The amount does include refrigerators, of which there are several - one large 42", one wine fridge, one compact, one freezer. All of them are Energy star which means they turn on/off periodically so it's hard to measure their usage with a Kill-a-watt. Also, 2 of them are hardwired. My estimate for those 4 total is 240 watts average based on the manufacturer's annual kWh stats. That leaves about 560 watts of actual standby.

 

One thing I found is that the new Kill-a-watt model P4460 is a lot better than the old P4400 at measuring low power usage. It shows fractional watts, whereas the old one did not. I had to replace my P4400 due to a failed ground .

I have a whole spreadsheet full of standby power data. Most devices use less than 10 watts, but it adds up quickly. The worst was a pond pump at 97W. We didn't need it but my bf liked the noise. Sigh. It got unplugged yesterday. Next worst was the Dish DVR at 50.7W - same draw whether "on" or off. Nothing we can do about that due to scheduled events. Next worst is one Brother laser printer that uses 27.6W idle. There are lots of devices in the home theater that use about 3-5W idle that just have no business using anything. I'm going to put them all on a power strip with an appliance module controlling it, so I can turn them on only when I actually use them.

 

I live in California so the rates are pretty high. In the summer the bill hit $280 with less than 1100 kWh. A lot was in the $0.29 and the $0.40/kWh tier.

I just installed a solar system 3 weeks ago, and it is performing very well, way above estimates with all the sun we have had lately. But it's not covering 100% of the usage in this season. It comes close on weekdays when I am at work, but not weekends.

 

So I'm motivated to cut every last watt that's not needed. I used the kill-a-watt to measure the power consumption of x10 AM466 modules, and it came to about 0.4 to 0.5W. Those modules can be had for about $6 on ebay. I see a bunch of them in my future. I hope the ISY99 can help with automation/scheduling. But ultimately I'm probably going to have some manual RF switches in some rooms, or IR macros on the remote in the home theater, to turn devices on/off only as needed.

The question is how much manual inconvenience to accept for the power savings. I think maybe one control in the home theater on the remote, and one control at the door when coming in/exiting to turn things on/off...

[IndyMike]

Hello Madbrain,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

You've obviously done quite a bit of work tracking things down already. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that you only used 1100 kWh in a 4700 sq foot home during the summer. I wish I could say the same.

 

800 watts "instant usage" is a fair amount. Even with this, I think your 560 watt standby estimate is high. I would encourage you to use your Kill A watt in "long term mode" and measure the average consumption of your fridge/freezers over a couple day period. It doesn't take much of a door seal leak (or ice build up) to blow the manufacturers numbers out of the water.

 

Other notes:

1) AM466 - I have quite a number of these that I've accumulated over the years. Unfortunately, they can be "confused" when attached to electronic loads causing them to cycle rapidly. Do not use them for your A/V center, computer, or any other device that you value highly.

 

2) Modern electronic devices in general are really not designed to be powered down completely. Many have EEProm memory devices that can be upset on power-up/power-down sequences. Prior to removing power, make sure you place your device in standby mode.

 

3) Multiple devices on power-strips (closely related to #2 above) - Televisions, Amplifiers, etc, all have a significant amount of stored energy when on. If turned off by a relay device, this energy will find the lowest resistance path to ground. Depending on the types of devices connected to the power strip, one device may decide to discharge through it's neighbor. This is normally not a catastrophic event, just an overstress of the the components in the device. Given time and enough cycles, it will wear out. Again, always place your devices in standby mode prior to disconnecting power.

[madbrain]

Mike,

 

Hello Madbrain,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

You've obviously done quite a bit of work tracking things down already. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that you only used 1100 kWh in a 4700 sq foot home during the summer. I wish I could say the same.

 

To be fair, we weren't living in the house the first few months when we bought it. It was being remodeled. Our bill for the first lived-in month , september, was for 1085 kWh. And still $280 at PG&E's insane summer rates.

That was quite a shock moving from Santa Clara with its municipal utility 12 miles away - which was billing us about $70 for 700 kWh , in a 1200 sq ft townhouse.

I kind of expected the bills to quadruple going for a place 4x as big ... But I didn't think so much of it would be because of higher utility rates vs increased usage.

 

There are only 2 of us in the house. I spent a lot of money completely redoing the HVAC with zones - 26k after rebates . There are 2 dual stage furnaces, 2 AC units, and 10 thermostats in the house, as well as whole house air cleaners. We only cool the rooms we actually use the AC in. In the winter we will only need to heat a few rooms also.

 

800 watts "instant usage" is a fair amount. Even with this, I think your 560 watt standby estimate is high. I would encourage you to use your Kill A watt in "long term mode" and measure the average consumption of your fridge/freezers over a couple day period. It doesn't take much of a door seal leak (or ice build up) to blow the manufacturers numbers out of the water.

 

Unfortunately the 2 oldest/biggest units are plugged in an inaccessible area (which I haven't even located) and I can't use the killawatt on them.

 

Other notes:

1) AM466 - I have quite a number of these that I've accumulated over the years. Unfortunately, they can be "confused" when attached to electronic loads causing them to cycle rapidly. Do not use them for your A/V center, computer, or any other device that you value highly.

 

OK.. I have been warned. But I'm still going to try

 

2) Modern electronic devices in general are really not designed to be powered down completely. Many have EEProm memory devices that can be upset on power-up/power-down sequences. Prior to removing power, make sure you place your device in standby mode.

 

Yes, I plan on putting them on standby first anyway.

 

3) Multiple devices on power-strips (closely related to #2 above) - Televisions, Amplifiers, etc, all have a significant amount of stored energy when on. If turned off by a relay device, this energy will find the lowest resistance path to ground. Depending on the types of devices connected to the power strip, one device may decide to discharge through it's neighbor. This is normally not a catastrophic event, just an overstress of the the components in the device. Given time and enough cycles, it will wear out. Again, always place your devices in standby mode prior to disconnecting power.

 

OK, duly noted.

[IndyMike]

Hello again madbrain,

 

The whole house air cleaners jumped out a bit. These can be run in a variety of modes (continuous, intermittent, demand, HVAC controlled). Check your mode of operation. These can easily draw 120W (air cleaner + furnace blower) when on.

 

There are only 2 of us in the house. I spent a lot of money completely redoing the HVAC with zones - 26k after rebates . There are 2 dual stage furnaces, 2 AC units, and 10 thermostats in the house, as well as whole house air cleaners. We only cool the rooms we actually use the AC in. In the winter we will only need to heat a few rooms also.

[apostolakisl]

There is that $.40/kwh I saw someone else complain about in California. I knew I wasn't crazy.

 

My first suggestion is to move.

 

Also, you might consider looking at solar or wind turbines at your house. I looked at doing it in Austin where we pay about $.12/kwh on average and with the utility rebates and federal rebate it was break even (they paid about half total). At $.40 you may easily go ahead on the deal. It really will depend on what kind of tax credits and other subsidies. Even if you have to buy the whole thing, I would expect you to be ahead at $.40/kwh.

[madbrain]

Hi,

 

There is that $.40/kwh I saw someone else complain about in California. I knew I wasn't crazy.

 

My first suggestion is to move.

 

I just bought the house And I'm not going anywhere. My work is in silicon valley.

 

Also, you might consider looking at solar or wind turbines at your house. I looked at doing it in Austin where we pay about $.12/kwh on average and with the utility rebates and federal rebate it was break even (they paid about half total). At $.40 you may easily go ahead on the deal. It really will depend on what kind of tax credits and other subsidies. Even if you have to buy the whole thing, I would

expect you to be ahead at $.40/kwh.

 

I did put in solar 3 weeks ago. 28 panels, 6.6kw system with micro-inverters. It cost $26k after state rebate and federal tax credit. It is projected to pay for itself in 8 to 10 years. It is sized to cover about 75% of the current house usage. There is still 25% remaining that it doesn't cover, but it's mostly in the lower tiers, which start at 11.8 cents/kWh on the E1 rate schedule (non time of use).

 

I am switching to a time-of-use plan where the rates will be higher during the day and lower at night. See schedule E6 at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf . Rates vary from 8.7 for summer off-peak baseline to 58.2 cents peak tier 5. The idea is that solar generates energy during peak times so the utility gives me credit at peak rates. And I buy electricity when I'm home at night at off-peak rate. I still want to reduce the remaining standby usage, since it runs 24/7. During peak times the savings from not buying that power for standby could be substantial.

[apostolakisl]

That's great. Those numbers seem like what I was looking at here in Austin but the payback was more like 30 years. I figured on the cost of money (what I would pay in monthly interest to borrow the money) versus what it would save me in montly electricity cost and it didn't quite break even. So, I didn't do it. I figured in reality it was costing me and my follow citizens a bunch in taxes for me to not even break even on the deal.

 

But, I pay way less for electricity. Our highest summer tier is $.13/kwh.

 

I expect that in the next 10 years solar will probably drop in price by a ton and efficiency will probably go up. So, if that happens, I may go with it.

[Scottmichaelj]

I just wanted to post back and get feedback from everyone to see how many Kwh people are using per day at home? It appears at first I thought the problem was fixed but now I am not sure. My "normal" usage without the HVAC or my pool is running me around 1.5 to 2.0 Kwh - over 24 hours thats 48 Kwh per day. Is this normal? Since I have solar during the day times I am usually breaking even. Today the solar prouced about 15 Kwh in electricity so instead of 48 Kwh went back to 33 KwH for the day. So now I am ust trying to gauge what a normal household consumes so I can see where I stand. Thanks for the input!

[TJF1960]

Hi huddadudda,

 

I am curious also how my house rates compared to others.

 

I looked back thru this thread and didn’t see the size of your house etc., how big?

 

I have a 1500 sq ft house in Northern California. Typical refrigerator/freezer in the house (8 yrs old-non energy star), 10 yr old freezer in the garage (non energy star). 2 tvs and 2 TiVo’s and 3 computers (non energy star). The computers are typically turned off at night. Its just my wife and I now and I work from home so during the day I have 2 computers running and lights etc. in my work room.

 

No solar and gas appliances except for the clothes dryer which is electric. The clothes washer is the only energy star appliance we have right now.

 

Last months bill showed we used 25.7 Kwh per day, while one year ago we used 32 kwh per. The bill for August was 49.6 kwh per while 1 yr ago it was 46.4. But this was a mild summer for us so the a/c usage wasn’t as great as in past years

[Scottmichaelj]

My house is aprox 3500sq ft and was built in 2006. Last month I used 1400 Kwh without HAVC but I do have solar. In the past I have gone up to 2400 Kwh during the summertime. We have a pool (but have a Pentair variable speed energy efficient pump, no hot tub) and I keep the AIR Conditioning on at 68 degrees pretty much from June-Oct. I am trying to keep out of the Tier 3 rates thats why I got solar. Its only my wife and me, no kids but work from home. I pay more in electric bills but I feel I offset it as I dont use a lot of gas commuting to work. We barely fill up each car once a month. Plus we have all energy star appliances all purchased new when we move into our home with gas for cooking and dryer.

 

I did find this link -> http://www.eia.doe.gov/ask/electricity_faqs.asp - it says "In 2008, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S. residential utility customer was 11,040 kWh, an average of 920 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per month." - So I guess based on these numbers and the size/items in my home I am not "too" far off (with solar!).

 

Hope this helps. I am starting to feel better knowing I am not too far off with my energy consumption with solar. Of course I know running the air at that temp is going to cost me and solar heating the pool during the summer. I am just surprised during these months I am not saving more but its the first winter with solar so I will have to wait and see the results. FWIW I know I am saving versus last year my Oct usage was 2391 Kwh! Not sure though if again there is a more "serious" issue somewhere as those numbers for two people seem really high without solar.