Insteon just went to hell...

[Goose66]

On Friday or Saturday, I upgraded my ISY 99i/Pro from 2.8.8 to 2.8.13. On Sunday I added two, brand-new SwitchLinc dimmers in the same j-box in a room with no other Insteon devices. The ISY doesn't seem to like the new SwitchLincs. It will communicate with them, but they constantly have the icon next to them indicating changes need to be written. Anytime I change anything in the ISY setup, it attempts to write to these two new devices, sometimes with success, sometimes not. But the green icons indicating changes need to be written never go away.

 

In addition, this week my Insteon network hasn't worked worth a crap. I already only had 90-95% reliability -- Now I would say its around 50%. Could this be a problem with the new ISY firmware, or should I be pulling the new dimmers out of service?

[fitzpatri8]

If you have a loose wiring connection to the new devices, they may be receiving and repeating erroneous signals that are interfering with the genuine signals. You can test this theory by temporarily disabling the new units without removing them. Just pull the set/airgap out far enough that the LEDs turn off to remove them from your network. You should also turn off the Automatically Write Changes to Devices (click on the green 110010 icon in the toolbar to turn it grey) so the ISY doesn't keep trying to make changes to the disabled devices.

[apostolakisl]

Don't under estimate the power of a factory reset. I have had new switches that didn't work right until I did a factory reset.

[Goose66]

I pulled out the set button ("air-gapped") for both switches for about 10 seconds after installing them and restoring power. Is this enough, or is there more to be done?

[Brian H]

Factory reset is pull the set button out for at least ten seconds. Then push it all the way in past its normal position for three seconds. Then release.

Maybe best to remove it from the ISY99i setup before the reset if possible.

 

http://wiki.smarthome.com/index.php?tit ... l_(Rev_5.0)

[fitzpatri8]

No, you would want to leave the airgaps pulled while retesting the rest of the network. If disabling the new devices restores communication reliability with the rest of your network, then you would want to verify a compatible load and go over the wiring to those devices looking for a loose connection somewhere.

 

If disabling them makes no difference with communications to other devices, then you would want to follow normal network troubleshooting. Did you recently add any surge suppressors or UPS devices to your home, or did you change out some light bulbs about the same time the problems appeared?

[Goose66]

No other changes, no UPSs, etc.

 

I removed the two SwitchLincs from the ISY, then performed the factory reset procedure. Then added them back to the ISY. The first one through a "Failed to communicate with device" message by kept on chugging and eventually stopped. The second one appeared to add successfully. However, both show up with the green icon indicating writes are pending. "Write Updates" and "Restore Device" doesn't clear this.

 

In addition, when I add the first device, I must have gotten no less than 30 dialogs of "Initializing System" or "System Busy" messages with the progress bar. UD guys, don't you understand that the percentage complete means absolutely nothing when the there is an indeterminate number of dialog boxes? Also, is getting 30 dialog boxes to add a device with no links normal? I don't remember getting that many before. At one point, one of the dialogs said "Device added succesfully," but that was in the middle of the 30 dialogs. In addition, some of the dialogs reference weather conditions like wind speed and dewpoint. What is that about? I think this has to be a n ISY 2.8.13 issue, because I had no such problems before the upgrade.

[Michel Kohanim]

kingwr,

 

Before downgrading from 2.8.13 (which I strongly discourage), remove those switches from ISY and from your electricity just to test whether or not your reliability goes up or down.

 

Secondly, please go to Tools | Diagnostics | Show PLM Link Table and see how many links you have.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Goose66]

I will try over weekend. Is leaving the switches air-gapped sufficient, or do I physically have to unwire them?

 

I have 136 links in the PLM.

 

Thanks!

[oberkc]

Air gap (completely removing power) is sufficient. You may first want to disable the device in the ISY admin console. Otherwise, the ISY may continue to attempt communication with the air-gapped devices.

[Goose66]

I air-gapped the two devices and Insteon was still not better. I purchased and bought a passive coupler for installation in one of my breaker panels, and the ISY was able to write changes to the two new devices just fine. However, now there is a keypad that shows pending writes that I cannot "Write Changes" or "Restore Device." "Write Changes" results in an error:

 

Failed to write device link (Deck Lanterns) -200000/-51

 

The ISY had no problems writing to this keypad before 2.8.13 and installation of the passive coupler. I also resituated and re-setup my 3 wireless access points and power-cycled the PLM.

 

At this point, I am wanting to change my firmware revision level in the ISY back to 2.8.8 that I know was operating correctly. I have the 2.8.8 firmware zip file and a 2.8.8 backup. Is there any special procedure for downgrading the ISY?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello kingwr,

 

Would you please try 2.8.14 before going back to 2.8.8?

 

The only thing you have to worry about by going back to 2.8.8 is that you have to reset your Time Zone offset.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Goose66]

Upgraded to 2.8.14. No idfference. However, I did notice that the starting link number would occassionally increment when I would try "Write Updates" to the keypad. So, after 40 or so tries to "Write Updates" (all with tens of progress dialog boxes saying "System Busy"), the last link was written and the green icons went away. Now the new devices and the wayward keypad seem to function correctly about 90% of the time, which is back to my normal.

 

So I have two issues:

 

1. I need some sort of tool to measure noise and/or signal strength at various points in my house so I can determine why Insteon is so unreliable (seeing that Michel is saying 100% can be obtained in every installation), and

 

2. I wish the dialog boxes during communication were a bit more straightforward to what is actually going on. It will show "Writing link 2," then there will be three or four "System Busy" dialog boxes with various waits, and then it will write something in reference to "Dew Point" from the weather module, then it will do anoter system busy, and then fail with the -200000/-51 error code. Not very helpful for debugging, mind you.

[IndyMike]

Upgraded to 2.8.14. No idfference. However, I did notice that the starting link number would occassionally increment when I would try "Write Updates" to the keypad. So, after 40 or so tries to "Write Updates" (all with tens of progress dialog boxes saying "System Busy"), the last link was written and the green icons went away. Now the new devices and the wayward keypad seem to function correctly about 90% of the time, which is back to my normal.

 

So I have two issues:

 

1. I need some sort of tool to measure noise and/or signal strength at various points in my house so I can determine why Insteon is so unreliable (seeing that Michel is saying 100% can be obtained in every installation), and

 

Hello kingwr,

 

Glad to hear that you've made some progress. I understand that you are not at all pleased with this sudden occurrence when nothing seemed to change in your system. Nonetheless, I would side with Michel that the ISY firmware was not the direct cause of the disruption.

 

Here are some thoughts/recommendations:

 

1) Please check the "Messaging Mode" under the menu item \link management\advanced options. This should be set to "Automatic". If set to "device reported", the ISY may use "extended message" protocol for newer devices. Although this protocol is far faster than the standard, it requires that you have a sufficient number of extended message capable "mesh units" installed to ensure good signal levels. If most of your installed units are older (non- extended message capable), this could cause problems on heavily loaded circuits. As a side note, I have not had problems using extended messaging since it's inception with only 1 accesspoint installed (call me lucky).

 

2) I'm happy to see that you're installed a passive coupler at the panel. I'm a big proponent of these simple devices because they can't be upset. The fact that installing to coupler allowed you to program your new switchlincs indicates that your Accesspoints may not have been doing their job. Either they were not placed correctly, locked up (voltage spike), or they were being interfered with by local noise.

 

3) In general, when a device update fails (links waiting to be written) system performance will go down due to the ISY trying to re-write these links. If you have the ISY-99 PRO, you can simply turn off "automatic changes" to prevent the ISY from retrying the updates. If you do not have the pro version, you can disable the device from the admin panel.

 

4) If you have had trouble programming a device (i.e. your KPL), Don't trust the result if it does appear to program. I would recommend you perform a device links scan and then compare to the ISY.

 

5) I noticed in another thread that you have a Monterey X10 analyzer. This is a rather powerful X10 tool that does have some applications for Insteon as well. Noise measurements from this device should be applicable to Insteon. In addition, signal level measurements should be applicable. The Monterey may display Insteon messages with a number of errors (BSC, BCY, etc), but I would think it would display the signal level. If it does not, you should be able to view the Insteon levels through the noise measurements.

 

6) Since you now have a passive coupler installed, you should be able to initiate X10 commands from the ISY/PLM and measure signal levels using your Monterey. This will be a "worst case" test since none of your Insteon units will repeat the X10 signal. Nonetheless, if you register 0.1V or above signal level in a "problem area" your problems should not be due to signal level. Check the programming of your Insteon devices to make sure that you don't have link table corruption.

 

As a side note - I understand that you firmly believe that nothing has changed in your system to cause these recent problems. The fact of the matter is that something has changed, though it may not have been by your hand.

 

Around a year ago I began to receive nuisance faults from numerous different devices - of course nothing had changed in my system. I isolated the problem to a dimmer circuit in my family room that controlled 4- 14W dimmable CFL's. When on, this circuit generated enough noise to interfere with my PLM reception. It was not able to here responders, although transmissions by the responders were received (scenes operated fine).

 

To make a long story short, one of the CFL's had burned out and my wife had replaced it with a standard 60W incandescent (not her fault - I may very well have done the same). Unfortunately, the KPL became very unhappy with the loading and was generating serious noise on the powerline. This only occurred at a specific dim level - which I had programmed to occur at 10 pm each night.

 

A very innocuous change that caused a lot of hair pulling. In general, CFL's on dimmers are bad (dimmable cfls). Dimmable CFLs mixed with Incandescents appear to be worse. This again should be taken with a grain of salt. The dimmer in question was a V1.65 KPL. Much has changed since then (power supplies in the devices are completely different).

[Goose66]

IndyMike,

 

Thanks for the info. I will try the X10 tester with the ISY sending X10 commands and Insteon commands and report back.

 

In fact, several things had changed in my system (two new SwitchLincs and new ISY firmware) and I was just trying to tease out the likely cause of the degradation in the ISY. I will look for further culprits. Like I mentioned, my normal is 90% reliability. I think there is something that runs periodically in my house that generates the bulk of the noise that disrupts the signals. Either my refrigerator, furnace, TV, computer, etc. If I could detect the level of noise or an SNR, I could switch devices on and off and see if I could isolate the culprit.