wharris Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I have been trying to get a reliable Insteon network working in my home for over 2 years now. My home is 9000 sf heated (12,000 covered) and is fully automated. I am a EE and software developer with a LOT of experience with electronic devices. I have wasted so much time on this Insteon setup and I have spent so much money trying to get it to work that I am disgusted and on the brink of ripping it all out. I have an ISY 99i PRO IR (v.2.8.16) with the latest dual-band PLM. I have 18 access points and I have attached Insteon FilterLincs to every device that has a switching power supply or surge suppressor (outlet strips, UPS, TV's, computers, etc.). I estimate about 20 or so FilterLincs in all. I have hardwired phase couplers installed in breaker boxes at two different points in the home. I also have a 220V Dryer Plug phase coupler installed. I have 4 LampLinc devices, 7 ApplianceLinc devices, 19 SwitchLink Dimmers, 4 (6 button) KeypadLinc Dimmers, 3 (8 button) KeypadLinc Dimmers, 4 Dual-Band LampLinc modules, and 9 floods with In-LineLinc Relays. In addition, I also have 5 MotionLincs and 4 RemoteLincs. I have tried installing the PLM in multiple locations with varying degrees of results, I also use an ELK M1GOLD. I cannot get the various "scenes" that I have created to work reliably. I can initiate a "Diagnostic Scene Test" 5 times in a row and get different results each time. What is strange is that the system is appears to be much more robust when I eliminate the ISY and use the ELK to directly control each switch (light, module, etc.). When I contact SmartHome for assistance they are clueless. I just end up buying more devices that don't live up to my expectations. I must truly be insane... I keep repeating the same thing over and over again without success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oskrypuch Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 18 access points, even for a large house, seems to be way overkill. I might start pulling those out. Four TOTAL, with a pair on each side might actually work better. * Orest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Contact Steve Lee at Smarthome. He should be able to help with the comm problems you are having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Hello wharris, First - LeeG's recommendation to contact Steve Lee is an excellent one. Steve is experienced with large, complicated installations. With 12,000 Sq feet and 23 RF transceivers (18 AP's, 4 dbLL's, 1 dbPLM), I'd say you qualify. Observations: You have a rather large install, but not an inordinate number of Insteon devices. Your powerline devices (not including Accesspoints and RF devices) number 50. I have a similar number of powerline devices in a house roughly half the size. In contrast, I have 1 passive phase coupler, 1 accesspoint and (currently) 0 filters. Others have had good success with the AP's and dual band devices. I choose not to use these devices as it adds an additional level of complexity to the installation. I have zero experience with anything approaching the number of RF transceivers you have installed. Filterlincs 1) Filterlincs are nice devices for filtering noise in the 120Khz range. They are less effective at isolating signal absorbers. ELA has recently performed some measurements that indicate that (depending on component tolerances) these devices can present a fair load to insteon signals as well. If you have a circuit with a number of filterlincs installed, this could present a problem. ELA's post is located here: http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7834 2) Using filterlincs may only address half of the circuits in your home. Many homes are wired with the lighting circuits separate from the receptacles. Filtering devices on the receptacle circuits leaves possible lighting noise sources unaffected. ELK VS ISY Control Your post indicated that you have good success when using the ELK to control the modules directly. From this, I am assuming that you have a PLM interfaced to the ELK (correct?). This could be a simple matter of PLM placement, but you've indicated that you've tried multiple locations for your ISY/PLM - we'll rule that out for now. If the ELK is using device direct communication, it will perform command/response verification with retries. The ISY will also perform command/response verification with retries in device direct mode, but it will not when activating scenes. This is a fundamental difference that may be making the ELK communication "appear" more reliable. If the ELK is performing re-tries, it definitely indicates noise/absorption issues. Other questions: 1) Any V.35 devices installed? UDI has identified that these devices can interfere with scene communications. 2) Any boosterlinc devices installed (X10)? I have first hand experience with boosterlinc units actively interfering with Insteon. 3) Any chance that the ELK PLM/ISY PLM are fighting one another? Distributed Network The following likely does not apply given the number of transceivers you have installed. Nonetheless, it does bear mentioning for long circuit runs with multiple devices at the end. Insteon mesh theory is based on a distributed network. Each device in the network will listen for and repeat Insteon messages up to the max Hop count. Unfortunately, each Insteon device also presents a rather significant load on the powerline. A cluster of devices at the end of a long circuit can pull the signal strength below the noise level. A location such as this would be a candidate for a AP/dual band device to restore signal levels. If you do manage to wade through your current problems, please do post back your findings. IM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 IndyMike, Thanks for the detailed suggestions. I only use 1 PLM. When experimenting with the ELK, the PLM is still located in the same location. BTW, I have two different PLM's. The older unit is capable of providing power to the ISY. The new unit requires a power supply for the ISY. I tested both units today. There was not a noticeable difference. Thanks for the explanation regarding invidual control vs scenes. Tomorrow, I am going to pull all of the FilterLincs and Access Points and go from there. My home has a 550 Amp main feed that then feeds numerous sub-panels. The house is 210 feet long. I have 1 passive coupler at each end of the house. I was under the impression that the more Insteon devices you have, the better the signal quality. I am under the impression that each Insteon Device (with the exception of the Filters) will repeat the control signal. It looks like 26 of my swiches are v35 devices!! What counts as a "hop"? I wonder how hard it would be to increase the signal amplitude from the PLM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oberkc Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It looks like 26 of my swiches are v35 devices!! Oh no! While I not had any, the post are many about how these can be potentially serious trouble. I understand smarthome may replace them for you. I think I would look into this before doing any serious changes to your system. It may have been your problem all along. BTW, I believe v35 is in reference to the software version, and shows up on the ISY admin panel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 When I look at the "Type" in the Universal Devices Administrative Console, I see entries such as... "(2476D) SwitchLinc Dimmer v.35" How does the v.35 problem manifest itself? It is a real bummer as it is time consuming to replace these switches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 wharris, I must say that I would probably be even more frustrated than you are. V35 problems: 1. Scenes are activated intermittently 2. Intermittent network communication errors on ALL your devices (not just v35s) In short, if you have V35s in your system, I am almost certain that all your communication errors are originating from those devices. With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Hello wharris, It sounds as if the V.35 units may be the root of your problem. Michel is the authority in this area. I have no direct experience with these devices and cannot add any practical troubleshooting advice. I suppose you could try air-gapping the units to disable them, but that may not leave you with much of a network. I did want to reply to some of the comments/questions in your post - Tomorrow, I am going to pull all of the FilterLincs and Access Points and go from there. Please do not pull all your filterlincs. The problem that I was trying to relate was an extreme case. If you had 10 filterlincs on the same circuit they could present a problem. Many electronic devices use a cheap EMI filter with a 0.1uF cap at the input. This 0.1uF cap presents a 12 ohm load to the 130 Khz Insteon signal. The Insteon devices can drive this load at full level if they are close by. If an Insteon device is far away (250') your wiring will generate a series impedance - the result is a voltage divider at the EMI cap and a lower signal level. My point here - if you are sure that your electronic device uses a EMI cap, then the Filterlinc will help (impedance between 20 and 40 ohms). However, many of these device on the same circuit could still present a problem. My home has a 550 Amp main feed that then feeds numerous sub-panels. The house is 210 feet long. I have 1 passive coupler at each end of the house. That 210' distance isn't going to be easy. Your actual wire distance will be significantly longer. Your sub panel at the far end of the house will present a significant load to signals coming from the main panel. If I were setting this up, I would try the following: Main Panel 1) PLM/ISY on a dedicated circuit (Phase A) next to the passive coupler. 2) Insteon repeater (can be an AP or any plug in module) on Phase B next to the passive coupler. Sub panel - far end of the house Insteon repeater devices (AP's or other plug in) on both phase A and B next to the passive coupler. The reason for the repeater devices in the above is to restore the signal levels on the opposite phase, and at the remote panel. The passive couplers are good, but you will take a signal drop across them. The local Insteon repeater will hear the transmission through the coupler, and then re-transmit on the opposite phase during the next hop. I was under the impression that the more Insteon devices you have, the better the signal quality. I am under the impression that each Insteon Device (with the exception of the Filters) will repeat the control signal. You are correct that Insteon devices do repeat transmissions in order to maintain a consistent signal level across the network. In general, adding additional devices will provide a "summation" of signals and a higher overall level. The above assumes that the devices are distributed throughout the home. The Insteon devices themselves present roughly a 6 ohm load to the network. Having 4 of these devices in a single box at the end of a 250' circuit (1.6 ohm load) may reduce the signal level below the noise threshold - they won't be able to repeat the signal because they can't here it. Having the same 4 devices distributed over a 250' circuit will not present a problem because each individual device can here and repeat the original signal. All of the above examples are extreme cases. In my experience, it takes more than one problem to degrade Insteon signal levels to the point where reliability is affected. Long line + noise + signal absorption as an example. Your problems appear to be a "special cause" (i.e. active interference from the V.35's). Unfortunately, I can't offer much in the way of suggestions for these other than disable them (air gap and admin console) to see if things improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehoyt Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 I had numerous issues until I got rid of all my V.35 devices. Don't do anything until you do that. I have a rather large installation also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted February 27, 2011 Author Share Posted February 27, 2011 This is really great feedback. It would be great if there were an active phase coupler. I have sent an email to customer service at SmartHome regarding this issue. Hopefully, they will make this right and replace the defective v.35 devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 It would be great if there were an active phase coupler. The configuration that I described (passive coupler with Insteon repeaters on each phase) is the functional equivalent of an X10 active phase coupler. SH also has 240V dual band devices. These would presumably repeat signals on both phases. There are also 240V devices that are not available to the general public. If you have problems with your remote panel (after switching the V.35's out) these devices might offer a solution. Again, I have no personal experience with them. Steve Lee would again be a good source of information for this application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted March 3, 2011 Author Share Posted March 3, 2011 It would be great if there were an active phase coupler. The configuration that I described (passive coupler with Insteon repeaters on each phase) is the functional equivalent of an X10 active phase coupler. SH also has 240V dual band devices. These would presumably repeat signals on both phases. There are also 240V devices that are not available to the general public. If you have problems with your remote panel (after switching the V.35's out) these devices might offer a solution. Again, I have no personal experience with them. Steve Lee would again be a good source of information for this application. Would you actually need an Insteon repeater on both sides of the phase coupler. You would think that you could use one device on one side of the coupler. I have just installed an in-line Insteon switch on one side of a coupler in one of the breker boxes. It didn't seem to have any impact. I am going to install another in-line switch on one side of a coupler at the other end of the house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeG Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Every wired Insteon device is a repeater (except passive wired coupler). That is one of the Insteon features which give it better reliability. Both 120V legs are repeated because Insteon devices are installed on both 120V legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted March 4, 2011 Author Share Posted March 4, 2011 wharris, I must say that I would probably be even more frustrated than you are. V35 problems: 1. Scenes are activated intermittently 2. Intermittent network communication errors on ALL your devices (not just v35s) In short, if you have V35s in your system, I am almost certain that all your communication errors are originating from those devices. With kind regards, Michel Smarthome is swapping out all of my V.35 devices at no cost. Of course, I still have to replace 26 swiches and that is a time consuming ordeal in itself. I am going to leave everything alone and only replace the switches and see if that resolves my problem. Thanks for the heads up on this issue. Smarthome said they address this issue on a case by case basis. They said the problem only manifests itself withe isy99. But, I also purchased my ISY99 from them. And, each time I would request tech support I would inform the CS agent that I was using an ISY99i. They could have saved me a TON of time if they would have just informed me of this problem over a year ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have completed replacing all of the v35 switches (28 in total). For the past two days my system appears to be working as expected. I still have a lot of access points and an in-line module at one of the breaker boxes. I will wait another week and then I will remove the in-line module and then test for another week. On another note, when I try to backup the ISY I receive an error, "Cound Not Retrieve File /CONF/MAIL/1.NOT". I am running Windows 7 x64. Thanks again for the heads up on the v35 issue. I had already wasted a year fighting this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michel Kohanim Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Hi wharris, I am so very glad things are working a little better. To fix the backup issue, please: 1. Go to Configuration | Email & Notification 2. Click on the record with ID = 1 3. Click on the Delete button 4. Click on the Save button With kind regards, Michel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted March 29, 2011 Author Share Posted March 29, 2011 Michel, Thanks! I would not have been able to solve this problem without the assistance provided by the users of this forum. The "replace" feature worked well although it took a LONG time. Some of the devices have more than 60 links and I had to replace one at a time. During this procedure I was wishing for the ability to replace all of the devices and then click the "Enable Write" button to restore all of the affected devices. I guess my situation is rare and that most users only need to replace one device at a time so it probably doesn't make sense to add this capability. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 The Pro version does allow you to hold off writes, but for casual replacements. May not be that much of an advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I know the pain of replacing so many switches. While I didn't have v35 issues I did have the paddle issue on all of my switches. Over the course of a year I replaced about 50 switches. Look on the bright side, you now have all v5.? switches (hardware version). Indymike did power consumption on those and they are a big improvement (less than one watt), plus you now have a beeper on all of your switches that ISY programs can sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 My system has been stable ever since I replaced all of the V35 switches. I then removed 8 of the access points and the system continued to be stable. A few days later I removed the in-line linc from the breaker box at one end of my home. (I had installed an in-line linc and a passive coupler inside breaker boxes at each end of my home (about 200 ft apart.) I started seeing problems with a couple of switch locations. Today, I re-installed the in-line linc and I will verify that this resolves the issue. It would be great if Smarthome would develop an "active" coupler. Currently, I get the same results with an in-line linc and a passive coupler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wharris Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 I know the pain of replacing so many switches. While I didn't have v35 issues I did have the paddle issue on all of my switches. Over the course of a year I replaced about 50 switches. Look on the bright side, you now have all v5.? switches (hardware version). Indymike did power consumption on those and they are a big improvement (less than one watt), plus you now have a beeper on all of your switches that ISY programs can sound. I didn't look at the hardware version of the replacements. the Administrative Console reports "SwitchLinc Dimmer W/Beeper v.38" for the dimmers and "SwitchLinc Relay - Remote Control On/Off Switch v.3A" for the relays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apostolakisl Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 They are going to be version 5. something. (unless they have moved to ver6 but I don't think so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMike Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 My system has been stable ever since I replaced all of the V35 switches. I then removed 8 of the access points and the system continued to be stable. A few days later I removed the in-line linc from the breaker box at one end of my home. (I had installed an in-line linc and a passive coupler inside breaker boxes at each end of my home (about 200 ft apart.) I started seeing problems with a couple of switch locations. Today, I re-installed the in-line linc and I will verify that this resolves the issue. It would be great if Smarthome would develop an "active" coupler. Currently, I get the same results with an in-line linc and a passive coupler. Hello Wharris, Glad to hear that the replacing the V.35's solved most of the problem. Your remote panel was the one I was worried about previously. 200 foot between panels is a long run with no repeaters. Your combination of the inlinelinc and passive coupler formed a "poor mans repeater" (a fix I am very familiar with). It normally works "well enough" and is cost effective - particularly if you have a use for the repeater (Insteon device) at that location. SH does advertise their 220V relays as "active repeaters". Since most of these are "dual band" devices, I am not sure whether they simply repeat the RF on the powerline, or actually repeat powerline signals from Phase A to Phase B. Might be worth a call to Tech support. Please let us know if you learn anything about these. http://www.smarthome.com/2477SA1/INSTEON-220V-240V-30-AMP-Load-Controller-Normally-Open-Relay-Dual-Band/p.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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