apostolakisl

Dan et al, Thanks for your comments. I am trying to outline the situation here. I did my best to outline the true/false determination and with that discovered that only by also understanding triggers could one predict the true/false status. So, true/false and triggers are separate by highly interrelated topics. You need to know the nuances of both to predict how your programs will run. In short, I would love to see the owners manual, or at least the wiki have two sections back to back. 1) understanding true/flase 2) understanding triggers I have a lot less experience using the isy than a lot of people on this forum, but think I at least did an OK job outlining things. My inexperience in some sense I think helps as I have very few preconceived notions about how this works and therefore developed my concepts from a starting point that is likely not going to skip any concepts that the new ISY person would need to know. Again, I really think that having this stuff outlined in the wiki would be great and save a lot of needless confusion and questions for a lot of isy programmers. Lou

Here is what I am trying to figure out. What triggers a program to evaluate the if statement. As I understand, whenever a program is triggered, anything currently running in the "then" or "else" section is terminated. As I also understand, an object that is in an "if" statement may or may not re-trigger a program depending on whether it is evaluated as a "status" or "control". For example "status" objects will re-trigger a program any time the status of that object is addressed, regardless of whether it changes or not. At the same time, a "control" object will only re-trigger a program if it is addressed with the exact command written in the rule. In the programming section we have lots of potential commands to put in the "if" section. Which ones will cause a trigger under what circumstances is the question? Schedule 1) time is - causes a trigger at the specific time listed 2) to/from - ??? a trigger when it hits "from" and another at the "to" ??? Condition 1) status - a trigger every time the object (insteon device) is sent a signal regardless of whether it is a change or not or whether it is the status listed in the "if" statement. 2) control - a trigger only when the exact command listed is sent (ie "on") other commands do not trigger. The current state is not relevant (in other words it would not have to become "on", an "on" command to an already on device would still be a trigger) 3) program - ?? triggers when the listed program runs regardless of what happens to its true/false status ?? 4) IR - ?? triggers every time that specific IR command is received (like pressed) while other commands on the ir freq may occur without triggering, similar to how "control" works ?? 5) X10 - don't care, I have none 6) Module - don't even know what to guess here

Ohhhh, the nuances or this thing. So restarting a "wait" timer really goes to rules of "trigger". If a program re-triggers, any "wait" command running will be aborted and potentially restarted when appropriate. The program statement: "if control 'ligth switch' is switched on" only is a trigger if the "on" button is hit. Anything else you do to that switch will not trigger the program and the "wait" command will run its course unaffected? The program statement: "If status 'light switch' is 43%" is a trigger anytime someone does anything to that switch and therefore will restart the wait command? Is there a wiki page that outlines the rules of what constitutes a trigger with reference to each of the different types of "if" statements possible?

So you are saying that a program in the midst of a "wait" commnad will terminate (along with all "then" stuff following the wait) in the event that the "if" section is triggered again prior to the termination of the "wait"? So if time = something is the only "if" command, then the program should trigger at that time, and unless another program forces a re-trigger, the program will run to its conclusion. But if you had a "such and such light is switched on" as a trigger with a "wait" as part of the "then", if someone did anything to that switch during the "wait" period, the program would re-trigger and the previous "wait" period would be aborted along with whatever followed? If the re-trigger event occurs but doesn't change the status of the program (ie it stays true), does the "wait" start over from scratch or does it keep going along the time line started by the first trigger?

The icon switches look different so that is no good. If you look at the high wattage (2476dh) switches and how much more they cost than the standard, I would think that the load side does play a significant role in cost. Also, the icon switches are I think 300 watt rated and they cost significantly less. Now the icon switches also only have a single led, so how that plays into cost, I don't know. Otherwise the icon switches look a whole lot like the 2476d's both front and back which rules out things like the mechanical parts or the physical structure being the cost.

Why doesn't SH sell a non-load switchlinc. It seems like a significant part of the cost of those switches would be in the circuits to handle the load. In my home probably 1/3 of the switches (maybe more) are capped on the load side. It would be nice if perhaps a half-price non-loadable switch were available. Perhaps it could be the 2476DN (N for non load), look just like the 2476D and have the same features, minus the load.

I saw some stuff from indymike where he listed lamplincs at 1 watt and another at 0 watt. I think something is up with that 0 watt, maybe a rounding error. Anyway, I only have a couple of lamplincs and appliance links but have tons of switchlincs. I didn't see anything about switchlincs. 1 watt seems reasonable which would mean that my entire insteon setup would still be under 100 watts. Also, what about the ISY? It gets power from the PLM. Does the PLM draw different when it has the ISY connected?

I was just reading that wikipedia page again and am sort of getting this. It looks like you need a lot calculus to figure the area under the curve. It would appear that there is an ebb and flow of power as capacitors are charged from the utility and then discharged back to the utility as the utility voltage drops and crosses 0. So I don't know how a meter measures current and volts in a situation like this. Seems like you probably need a fancy one to correctly measure all of this stuff. I can see why the electic company wouldn't like this as it would mess with the wave form and voltages if done on a large scale. So does anyone then actually know how many watts the insteon switches actually consume and therefore what role it would have on our electic bill? Incidently, typical 110 (or 120) is the average voltage. The sine waves peak much higher. The equation is 110 (or 120) times square root of 2. For 120 household current the peaks are 170 volts.

I did some searches for a narritive on the true/false situation and couldn't find anything like what I just wrote. It seems to me that this sort of info is not really going to change with firmware changes and might be nice to put into the owners manual. It is nice to be able to have a printed reference while working on this sort of stuff. Notes in the margin and being able to look at this stuff in print while using the computer to write the programs always seems best to me. I also think a little additional comment on the triggers bullet number 1. When a program has multiple conditions in the "if" section, then whenever any of those conditions are met or change value the program self triggers. For example "if it is 10pm" and "if light xyz is switched on" will trigger the program every day at 10 pm and every time light xyz has a status change. So this program would trigger and become "false" every time someone changes light xyz (on/off/bright/dim/etc) provided it is not currently 10pm.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying here. By drawing power out of phase with the 120V ac the switch is effectively drawing less voltage. Since power is volts time amps, with lower volts, there is less wattage despite the high current load. Yes? If so, how does the insteon draw out of phase? Seems like everyone else out there uses a transformer to drop the voltage.

When I try to get something in my head I like to try writing an instruction sheet that someone else could hopefully understand. So I did that and included it here. Please tell me if I have made any errors. I would also suggest that something to this effect is put into the pdf owners manual. Understanding True and False with ISY True: A program is “True†if the last time the program “if†section was triggered the condition(s) was (were) met. False: A program is False if the last time the program “if†section was triggered the condition(s) was (were) not met. As you can see from above, for a program to have a "true" or "false" status, it must have considered the "if" condition(s). There are several ways a program “if†condition(s) can be considered or “triggeredâ€: 1) A program can be triggered from its own “if†section. In other words “if it is 10pm†will self-trigger the program to execute the “then†statement at 10pm. In addition to executing the “then†statement, the program will be designated as “trueâ€. The status of the program will stay “true†even after 10pm (and at all other times) unless the program is triggered via an external trigger (at any time except 10pm). 2) A program can be triggered via another program. In the “then†section of a program one can trigger another program by including a line with the command “run (if)†in the “then†or “else†section. In the event that the "if" condition(s) were not met, the status would become “false†and the “else†line would be executed. The status will stay “false†until the next time its "if" condition(s) are met and it self-triggers. 3) A program can be manually triggered from the program summary page by selecting that program and then initiating the “run if†command. This will execute the “else†command (if one is present) in the event that the “if†statement condition(s) are not presently met as well as change the program status to “falseâ€. If the conditions were met then the “then†section would be executed. This execution of the “then†section would be a repeat of the executed event that occurred when the conditions were first met and the program self-triggered. Note: When a program includes the status of another program in its "if" section, the present status of the program is used as listed on the summary page. The "if" statement(s) are not triggered, the program status will simply be reported as it was the last time it was triggered.

Well I think I am getting this. I like kingwr thought process. I was definitely confused regarding how a condition of the program and the trigger of a program are both in the if section. Add to this that the status of the program as true/false is based on whether the if was true or not the last time the program was triggered and not based on current conditions is something you have to wrap your thinking around a bit. Pretty much this means that any program with a single if statement is always going to be true since it will only be triggered in the event that it is true. Addendum: I now see that you can trigger the "if" to run from a different program forcing a program with a single "if" condition to become false.

All of my rules that stipulate a time only say "true". For example If time is 11:00:00pm Then set scene 'foyer light' off Else no actions I have lots of simple rules like this and all are listed as true right now. Also I have lots of rules stipulating an insteon switch that say true as well, for example If control middle bedroom closet is swtiched on then wait 10 minutes set middle bedroom closet off else no actions A bunch of rules like this are listed as being true right now as well despite the lights being off. Addendum to the above, I just went through and asked all of these programs to run the if command, and they all switched to false. Exactly how is this true/false status supposed to work. If I had asked a program to use the status of another program (true vs false) would it have run the if command before deciding or just gone on what was listed in the program summary page? How does the status listed on the summary page get determined?

I am confused here. I have lots of programs listed as being "true" on the program summary page with time conditions even though it is not presently that time.

Does anyone know the low-down on the different versions? As far as 2476D's, I don't own any v35's, but have 6 v24's, 14 v27's, 1 v28, and 14 v37's. It would be nice know if there are any common problems with any of these versions so as to assist in troubleshooting.

Someone correct me if I am wrong here. It is a new feature and is still in beta version (which you are running). I believe the 1011 indicates that there are settings that need to be sent to the insteon item in question. The beta versions at present have the ability to do batches where you change settings on multiple items and then send all at once. The 1011 would indicate that changes are in que to be sent with the next batch.

And I thought I was the only one.

How serious are you about securing your house? Insteon is pretty good, but I don't know that I would consider the reliability high enough for a security system. It is also will fail in the event of a power outage.

It appears Apple has a vindeta against Sun and won't allow Java in the iphone. I went ahead and jailbroke my iphone with 3.1.2 software successfully but am struggling to get Java onto it. Has anyone had success? I would love to run ISY, Elk, and other Java applications on my iphone.

I am using my elk to open my garage doors. I took one of my remote garage door openers and wired it up to one of the relays on the elk. I wrote a rule that then closes the relay for 2 seconds which is effectively the same thing as holding down the button on the remote for 2 seconds. It works every time. I don't know how the SH one works, but with my garage door opener connected to my elk, 2 seconds of closure on the relay works perfectly.

I tried buying some led's that advertised "warm". No way! I have yet to see an led that doesn't put out a most unpleasant bluish shade that is also very contrasty. They make people look gastly. I sure would love to see leds that have a nice warm soft white for 1/20th the electricity consumption and 50,000 hours or more life, but as of now, I don't think they exist.

I think it is your else command in the garage door status program. Try making that into two programs one for on and one for off instead of using the else. I had a similar thing happen when trying to use the else command for a program to create a toggle. It would turn on then a a second or two later turn back off. I rewrote it as two programs and it worked fine.

Sorry if I got a little carried away. So Rand says insteon 50% means 50% of full output. My guess is that it is something like 60% on the consumption side.

I think that depends on how you define 50% dimmed. If you define 50% dimmed as reducing energy consumption by 50% then it would be just that. If you define it as 50% of the lumens, then I think it would be complicated and depend on the specifics of the light bulb you were using. If you mean 50% of the watts going to the bulb as would without the light dimmed, then you would definitely lose some energy in the dimmer switch. Basically, the warmth you feel in the dimmer is wasted electricity (at least if your goal is making light out of your electricity). If you took a multimeter with amperage clamps, hooked over your line wire and measured amps at 100%. Then turn the light to 50% and measure your amps. Multiply times volts and you know your watts consumed at full and at 50%. That begs the question as to what is "50%" to the insteon people? Of course you could also get yourself a light meter and dim the light until you have half the lumens and measure your amps that way as well. This way you would know for sure the % decrease in watts consumed that results from a 50% decrease in light.

As I read this I am backing up my isy!!! How about allowing a program to initiate a backup much like you can write a program to do a system querry? Then each user can decide just how often and when to do backups. The main question that pops to mind with this however, can the isy run a backup to network harddrive or can it only backup to an external source via a java console running on the machine with the harddrive?