Intermittent Communication with KPL 1.5

[YW84U]

Before I go too far, I just picked up an ISY99ir and I have to comment that it is a fantastic piece of hardware! As well, part of the purchase decision was based on the wonderful support found within this forum!

 

Now onto my issue: I currently have a ver 1.5 KPL as well as 3 2476D switchlincs. The KPL appears to be on the same leg as the 3 dimmers (that are all contained within the same gang box). The KPL has a local load at the top of some stairs, and so far three buttons assigned to control the dimmers that are part of a downstairs theater.

 

Before the ISY, I noted that the KPL control of the dimmers was ~70% - most often, I would find that the KPL lights would flash after sending a command even if the command went through okay. I was not too concerned at that point.

 

Today, I unwrapped and attached the ISY near to the KPL in order to set about programming, and found that it worked flawlessly. However, the ISY is to live nearest to the three dimmers in the theater below - I later moved it there (for permanent IR purposes), and it cannot see the KPL at all. The ISY runs the dimmers perfectly, but it appears the KPL is now out of ISY's reach since the move (although the KPL can still send commands to the dimmers most of the time).

 

My question is, would there be a benefit in installing two access points and/or a couple more dimmers to bolster the Insteon traffic? I have not so far been able to track down any suspicious devices that may be signal suckers or generating noise. I've read as much as I can about the various issues faced by some, but am really interested in user experience with any stability increase by adding more devices.

 

Thank You in Advance,

 

Tom

[Michel Kohanim]

Tom,

 

Thanks so very much for the vote of confidence and kind words and apologies for a tardy reply.

 

My first suggestion: if you have had intermittent issues with your KPL 1.5s, then please do contact SH and discuss the possibility of replacement units.

 

As far as AccessPoints, they do make a lot of impact but they have to be strategically located. As of right now, I suspect that perhaps your ISY is on a difference phase than your KPLs. So, you would have to figure out where to install your AccessPoints to a) couple the phases and provide more coverage.

 

From my own personal experience, the addition of INSTEON devices always help communications. So, it would be a good idea to have ISY near an INSTEON module (even a LampLinc would work).

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Before I go too far, I just picked up an ISY99ir and I have to comment that it is a fantastic piece of hardware! As well, part of the purchase decision was based on the wonderful support found within this forum!

 

Now onto my issue: I currently have a ver 1.5 KPL as well as 3 2476D switchlincs. The KPL appears to be on the same leg as the 3 dimmers (that are all contained within the same gang box). The KPL has a local load at the top of some stairs, and so far three buttons assigned to control the dimmers that are part of a downstairs theater.

 

Before the ISY, I noted that the KPL control of the dimmers was ~70% - most often, I would find that the KPL lights would flash after sending a command even if the command went through okay. I was not too concerned at that point.

 

Today, I unwrapped and attached the ISY near to the KPL in order to set about programming, and found that it worked flawlessly. However, the ISY is to live nearest to the three dimmers in the theater below - I later moved it there (for permanent IR purposes), and it cannot see the KPL at all. The ISY runs the dimmers perfectly, but it appears the KPL is now out of ISY's reach since the move (although the KPL can still send commands to the dimmers most of the time).

 

My question is, would there be a benefit in installing two access points and/or a couple more dimmers to bolster the Insteon traffic? I have not so far been able to track down any suspicious devices that may be signal suckers or generating noise. I've read as much as I can about the various issues faced by some, but am really interested in user experience with any stability increase by adding more devices.

 

Thank You in Advance,

 

Tom

[YW84U]

Thank You for the response Michel! Originally, when I was using the setup as X10 with an IR543 controller, I had run a new outlet immediately downstream (within 10 feet) of the dimmers to ensure good communications - the ISY and PLM sit in that spot now, and it seems to be a good location and is required for the IR features within the theater. But I always did have some issues when trying to reach the KPL. I traced things out yesterday, and can confirm that the KPL is on the same phase, albeit on another breaker on the same bus. I've looked at what else is on that leg, and cannot find anything obviously suspicious, although I have yet to start removing items to see if they have an impact.

 

When I placed the PLM on an outlet immediately adjacent on the same line as the KPL, it did appear to work 100% of the time. I was even able to program the dimmers from that location, although they could not be reached sometimes during the linking. I was suspicious of the KPL, but the testing/programming I performed yesterday seemed to indicate it was indeed working as it should, but just not 'hearing' traffic from other locations further away on an intermittent basis. After all of the reading, I'm not sure - is there a definite issue with the 1.5s? If there is, I will contact SH and see about an RMA. I will be expanding the network slowly over time, so I might grab a couple AP's first and see if the behavior improves before sending it back.

 

Again, Thank You in Advance,

 

Tom

[Sub-Routine]

The Access Points certainly won't hurt. They will act as repeaters on the power line as well as RF.

 

Rand

[Michel Kohanim]

Tom,

 

My pleasure!

 

Do you have an extra ApplianceLinc/LampLinc? If so, just plug one in the outlet where ISY had a problem communicating with the KPLs. Since PLM/KPLs are on the same phase, this way, the PLM and ApplianceLinc (next to one another) may provide better (of full) coverage. When you get your AP, you may replace your ApplianceLinc/LampLinc.

 

As far as KPL 1.5: no; only some may exhibit intermittent issues. So, if you have intermittent issues where things turn on/off by themselves, then it would be a good idea to get them replaced.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Thank You for the response Michel! Originally, when I was using the setup as X10 with an IR543 controller, I had run a new outlet immediately downstream (within 10 feet) of the dimmers to ensure good communications - the ISY and PLM sit in that spot now, and it seems to be a good location and is required for the IR features within the theater. But I always did have some issues when trying to reach the KPL. I traced things out yesterday, and can confirm that the KPL is on the same phase, albeit on another breaker on the same bus. I've looked at what else is on that leg, and cannot find anything obviously suspicious, although I have yet to start removing items to see if they have an impact.

 

When I placed the PLM on an outlet immediately adjacent on the same line as the KPL, it did appear to work 100% of the time. I was even able to program the dimmers from that location, although they could not be reached sometimes during the linking. I was suspicious of the KPL, but the testing/programming I performed yesterday seemed to indicate it was indeed working as it should, but just not 'hearing' traffic from other locations further away on an intermittent basis. After all of the reading, I'm not sure - is there a definite issue with the 1.5s? If there is, I will contact SH and see about an RMA. I will be expanding the network slowly over time, so I might grab a couple AP's first and see if the behavior improves before sending it back.

 

Again, Thank You in Advance,

 

Tom

[cslee]

I too have similar issues with KPL. occasionally after pressing the "A" button, it will flash 3 times. And sometimes turning off the scene from ISY does not clear the "A" LED. I have already site a "lampLinc" near the KPL but it still does not improve the situation. I'm quite disappointed with KPLs.

 

 

But ISY, It's terrific.

[Michel Kohanim]

cslee,

 

Three questions:

1. What is your PLM version

2. What is your KPL version

3. What other devices is this KPL linked to ... it's quite possible that the responders to the KPL are the cause

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I too have similar issues with KPL. occasionally after pressing the "A" button, it will flash 3 times. And sometimes turning off the scene from ISY does not clear the "A" LED. I have already site a "lampLinc" near the KPL but it still does not improve the situation. I'm quite disappointed with KPLs.

 

 

But ISY, It's terrific.

[Guest]

Cslee,

 

As someone who has defintely been there with this type of issue I fully agree with the path Michel is taking to help you troubleshoot the problem. Not everyone will have the same problem but for me it was items 1 and 3 on his list of questions. The real culprits for me were 4 bad switchlincs which caused all sorts of random comm errors in my mesh. Once they were identified and replaced everything worked fine (almost 2 months now I guess). The PLM also being less sensitive than other devices is also a problem.

 

try and follow Michels advice as best you can and hopefully you will get through this quickly and with the least amount of frustration. For me it took about 9 months of countless hours. I am sure that with all that has been learned since then you will get be up and running well shortly.

 

cslee,

 

Three questions:

1. What is your PLM version

2. What is your KPL version

3. What other devices is this KPL linked to ... it's quite possible that the responders to the KPL are the cause

 

With kind regards,

Michel

I too have similar issues with KPL. occasionally after pressing the "A" button, it will flash 3 times. And sometimes turning off the scene from ISY does not clear the "A" LED. I have already site a "lampLinc" near the KPL but it still does not improve the situation. I'm quite disappointed with KPLs.

 

 

But ISY, It's terrific.

[YW84U]

Alas, my troubles begin

 

I ordered two APs as well as another SWL for another location, with a view to adding more devices and increasing communications. I anticipate these items to be in perhaps this Friday.

 

Sooo.......on a whim, I decided to log into ISY and play around a bit more (surmising that I would not be able to 'see' the KPL as earlier stated). Unfortunately, ISY would not communicate with any of the 3 SWLs either. IR commands did not work, nor did queries or commands sent from the GUI.

 

I went into the equipment closet to investigate and troubleshoot. I Unplugged the PLM, and did a reboot of ISY - no change. I telnetted into ISY, rebooted, no change. But then, I noted something strange - the LED on the PLM, from what I previously observed on installation, usually flashed when sending signals only. This time, I noted it was flickering, between regular 'dim', to completely off, to bright flashing in fractions of a second. Almost synonymous to Morse code, although there was no definitive pattern.... To rule out ISY, I untethered the PLM and plugged in in by itself, and noted the same behaviour.

 

I took a brief video clip to demonstrate my observations - I hope this works:

 

 

Anyway, the PLM I was shipped along with ISY is the following:

 

 

It states it is Rev 2.75, but I am unsure of how to obtain the firmware details (help?)

 

I am hesitant to suspect a flaky PLM until I receive and install the APs to determine if it strengthens the network. However, if any of the forum members are able to assist me in interpreting what I see so far, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

Thank You in Advance,

 

Tom

[Michel Kohanim]

Tom,

 

I do not think it's the PLM. Experience tells me that you seem to be having X10 traffic bombarding your network. It might be a defective switch causing this network traffic. If you have 2.6.4 installed, you can use the Event Viewer to see if there are indeed X10 traffic registered by the PLM.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[YW84U]

Hi All,

 

Sorry it took some time to reply, but I wanted to follow up on my original post (so you know how it ended!). I picked up two AP's as well as another switch, and went about doing factory resets on everything just to ensure that I did not have any stray X10 floating around. This action seems to have cured the intermittent blinking issue Thank You for the assistance!

 

As for the rest of the communications, I placed one AP just 'electrically' adjacent to the PLM (another outlet nearby same line), and the other 'adjacent' to the KPL. So far, everything seems 99% accurate and vastly improved between the PLM, 3 SWLs and KPL. The 1% seems to be only where a KPL button or SWL is pressed 'quickly' - sometimes the link or program may miss, and I'll have to re-press the switch and let my thumb 'linger' on the button for an extra moment for ISY to catch it. The bad news is that the ISY and KPL cannot see the new SWL way off on another circuit, unless I move an AP to a different location. Looks like I may have to investigate picking up additional APs or roll out some more switches to boost transmissions to that part of the house.

 

So far, I have to comment that I am very impressed with the ISY - it will take me some time to get a better grip on programming, but so far, my hats off to UD for producing something that makes Insteon a more robust system. I've got some basic sequences now programmed into my Harmony 880 to control the three switches in the theater, and it was a breeze to setup. Such a small thing, but now being able to have the KPL secondaries follow switch status is a wonderful thing! I'm hoping to learn as much as I can and contribute to the forum as I go along

 

Cheers,

 

Tom

[Algorithm]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks so much for the update. I'm so glad things are working much better for you now.

 

Regarding the new SWL not seeing KPL or ISY unless an AP is placed closer to it, that definitely does sound like a signal propagation issue. I strongly suspect that either an additional AP, or adding additional switches, would rectify the issue, just as you said.

 

Please do keep us posted.

[YW84U]

Hi All,

 

Just thought I'd post a quick update:

 

For the most part, everything seems to be working fine, save and except for the odd mis-fire for the new SWL that has some comms issues/signal propagation issues.

 

However, interestingly enough, the blinky-blink I first reported on with the PLM, is now apparent on both of the AP's... exactly the same as in the PLM video clip I posted earlier. None of the SWLS or the KPL have an X10 address, and there are no other devices on the line for X10. I did air gap each of the switches one at a time, to try and rule out a bad switch bombarding the line with traffic. No effect at all on the LED behaviour.....it is consistent 24/7.

 

Then I got to thinking - I thought the APs only handled Insteon traffic.....would they still brightly flash and such for any non-Insteon or line 'noise' as well? I did check my log, and save and except for the occasional "-2" or "-7027" here and there, all of the entries seem normal:

 

Scene:My Lighting Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 03:00:00 AM Program Log

SCONCES (0B.E5.FA.1) Sun 05/25/2008 03:00:04 AM System -2

KPL A Hall Button (0A.AE.19.1 Sun 05/25/2008 03:00:09 AM System -2

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Sun 05/25/2008 03:00:13 AM System -2

Scene:Exterior Entry Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 09:25:19 AM Program Log

Scene:Exterior Entry Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 09:25:24 AM Program Log

RECESSED (0B.EC.80.1) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 09:48:29 AM System Log

KPL D Recessed (0A.AE.19.D) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 09:48:29 AM System Log

KPL A Hall Button (0A.AE.19.1 Status 2% Sun 05/25/2008 09:48:30 AM System Log

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) On 255 Sun 05/25/2008 08:26:32 PM Program Log

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 08:26:32 PM System Log

Scene:Exterior Entry On 255 Sun 05/25/2008 08:26:37 PM Program Log

KPL G Exterior (0A.AE.19.G) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 08:26:37 PM System Log

RECESSED (0B.EC.80.1) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 09:56:55 PM System Log

Scene:KPL Recessed D Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 09:56:57 PM Program Log

KPL D Recessed (0A.AE.19.D) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 09:56:57 PM System Log

SCREEN (0B.EC.4E.1) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 10:12:30 PM System Log

KPL F Screen (0A.AE.19.F) Status 100% Sun 05/25/2008 10:12:30 PM System Log

SCREEN (0B.EC.4E.1) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 10:13:01 PM System Log

Scene:KPL Screen F Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 10:13:11 PM Program Log

KPL F Screen (0A.AE.19.F) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 10:13:12 PM System Log

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 10:53:01 PM Program Log

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Sun 05/25/2008 10:53:05 PM System -2

Scene:Exterior Entry Off 0 Sun 05/25/2008 10:53:06 PM Program Log

KPL G Exterior (0A.AE.19.G) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 10:53:06 PM System Log

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Status 0% Sun 05/25/2008 10:53:06 PM System Log

Scene:My Lighting Status 0% Mon 05/26/2008 03:00:00 AM Program Log

SCONCES (0B.E5.FA.1) Status 0% Mon 05/26/2008 03:00:01 AM System Log

KPL A Hall Button (0A.AE.19.1 Mon 05/26/2008 03:00:06 AM System -2

Exterior Entry (0D.19.0A.1) Mon 05/26/2008 03:00:10 AM System -2

Scene:KPL Sconces H Off 0 Mon 05/26/2008 01:28:23 PM Program Log

KPL H Sconces (0A.AE.19.H) Status 0% Mon 05/26/2008 01:28:23 PM System Log

 

Any ideas what may be the cause of the flashes of the AP/PLM LED's? Is it something to be concerned about, or shall I place some black electric tape over them?

 

Thanks in Advance!

 

Tom

 

PS - I just checked the PLM and the other AP - no flashing....strange indeed...perhaps something on that circuit is the culprit?

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Tom,

 

In my humble opinion, you should worry about the intermittent/unexplainable PLM/APs flashing as they are clues to future problems. The first thing I suggest is using the Event Viewer to see if there's anything that ISY picks up. Event Viewer can also show you X10 messages.

 

Secondly, if possible, please take out your KPL 1.5 from the circuit for a day and see you still experience those issues.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[YW84U]

Hi Michel - I'm starting to think that you never sleep !

 

About the Event Viewer - am I missing something in a setting? Each time I open it up, there is nothing listed - just a blank box.....I've just been viewing the log files by saving them locally then opening up in Excel. Perhaps you are able to point me in the right direction with that?

 

As for the AP - I will try and track down the source of the flashes. Would I need to remove the KPL completely? I though Air gapping would kill the power and thus anything stray it might be putting onto the lines.

 

I'm going to later this week start removing items plugged into the circuit to see if I can narrow things down. I will report back once I know more!

 

Thanks Again for the assistance

 

Tom

[MikeB]

About the Event Viewer - am I missing something in a setting? Each time I open it up, there is nothing listed - just a blank box.....I've just been viewing the log files by saving them locally then opening up in Excel. Perhaps you are able to point me in the right direction with that?

 

The Event Viewer only starts logging once you open it up. So, open it, then hit some switches and you should see activity,.

[Algorithm]

Hi Tom,

 

About the Event Viewer - am I missing something in a setting? Each time I open it up, there is nothing listed - just a blank box.

As MikeB said, the Event Viewer only begins reporting once it is opened. Also, you may want to change the level to 2, to see more information.

 

Would I need to remove the KPL completely? I though Air gapping would kill the power and thus anything stray it might be putting onto the lines.

Air gapping is sufficient, as it does remove power to the device. However, be aware that it is sometimes quite difficult to get the set button to remain in the open position without holding it out, so do ensure that it remains out. I even have one switch which cannot be air gapped--I can't get the set tab out far enough to open the circuit, and I think any more pressure applied would surely break it!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Tom,

 

Please do keep us posted.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

Hi Michel - I'm starting to think that you never sleep !

 

About the Event Viewer - am I missing something in a setting? Each time I open it up, there is nothing listed - just a blank box.....I've just been viewing the log files by saving them locally then opening up in Excel. Perhaps you are able to point me in the right direction with that?

 

As for the AP - I will try and track down the source of the flashes. Would I need to remove the KPL completely? I though Air gapping would kill the power and thus anything stray it might be putting onto the lines.

 

I'm going to later this week start removing items plugged into the circuit to see if I can narrow things down. I will report back once I know more!

 

Thanks Again for the assistance

 

Tom

[IndyMike]

Tom,

 

From your previous post - you are correct that the Accesslincs only "linc" (RF communication between devices) Insteon traffic. That being the case, X10 traffic should only be present on one phase of your system (one accesslinc) unless you had a passive coupler or a 220V device (oven, water heater) coupling the phases.

 

What has me particularly mystified is the rhythmic nature of the noise. If this occurs 24/7 it is sounds like a "programmed event". I can't think of any noise source that could cause this behavior around the clock.

 

The last time I read about a rhythmic noise source it was cased by a "TED" Home Energy Detective which uses the powerlines for communication (1 second intervals). Do you happen to own one of these (or a similar monitor that uses the powerline)?

 

However, interestingly enough, the blinky-blink I first reported on with the PLM, is now apparent on both of the AP's... exactly the same as in the PLM video clip I posted earlier. None of the SWLS or the KPL have an X10 address, and there are no other devices on the line for X10. I did air gap each of the switches one at a time, to try and rule out a bad switch bombarding the line with traffic. No effect at all on the LED behaviour.....it is consistent 24/7.

 

Then I got to thinking - I thought the APs only handled Insteon traffic.....would they still brightly flash and such for any non-Insteon or line 'noise' as well? I did check my log, and save and except for the occasional "-2" or "-7027" here and there, all of the entries seem normal: