What can causes PLM to lose all links ?

[chamnic]

Today I came back from vacations and discovers that no updates to devices (either locally at the switch for example or through a linked remote) are showing up in the Admin Console ... Had a look at the PLM link tables and it's empty ???  

 

Everything was fine before vacations, system was left running during vacations.

 

Usual reboot of ISY, unplug, replug of PLM did nothing ...

 

After restoring three devices and one remote, their updates are showing up and their links are back in the PLM as well ?

 

What can causes the PLM to lose all links ? 

 

What should I do at this point ... restore device by device or restore modem (PLM) ?

[LeeG]

The PLM has had a failure.   Run File | Restore Modem (PLM) to rebuild the PLM link database.

[Brian H]

If the PLM is close to or just over two years old. It could be failing.

There are numerous reports of PLMs failing. Mine did at two years and three months old. Just out of warranty.

[apostolakisl]

Yes.  Highly recommend that if it is less than 2 years old you return it quickly before it runs out of warranty.  This is classic.  It will probably be totally dead within days to maybe a couple months.

[sorka]

I don't think it's the PLM. This has been happening to me every 2 to 3 months since I first reported it back in 2014:

 

http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/12107-all-my-motion-sensors-stopped-working-simultaneously/page-2

 

I've been through 4 PLMs and it doesn't get any better with the new PLM. It just happened to me again. Extremely frustrating as I've got a load of motion sensors, wireless closure sensors on gates, and photobeams attached to i/o lincs. When this stuff goes down, I lose all of my external security. 

 

This never happened with the 99i but has been day 1 almost since I switched to the 994.

 

BTW, an automatic detection and restore method would be really nice since this seems to be so common. I check the link count and it's 0. I then do a restore. Perhaps something like this could run on a set schedule and restore the lincs to the PLM and send an email.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Sorka,

 

Did you also replace your PLM when you migrated to your 994?

 

PLM loses links mostly when there's a surge or outage. Have you had any power outages?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[sorka]

Hi Sorka,

 

Did you also replace your PLM when you migrated to your 994?

 

PLM loses links mostly when there's a surge or outage. Have you had any power outages?

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I've replaced my PLM 3 times since moving to the 994 and never before that. This only started happening after moving to the 994.

[Teken]

I've replaced my PLM 3 times since moving to the 994 and never before that. This only started happening after moving to the 994.

 

Sadly, this device seems to be a perpetual investment in time, resources, and money . . . Perhaps one day the Insteon Gods will let UDI finally make and sell their own . . .

[paulbates]

Was the one that lasted a long time a 2412 PLC as opposed to the 2413PLM? The 2412 had a reputation of being solid; but as an older product it was retired.

 

I found with my first  2413 in 2011 that powerline noise was responsible for making the PLM failing. It was near a furnace motor. I filtered the furnace motor and that was the end of the problem.

 

Paul

 

I've replaced my PLM 3 times since moving to the 994 and never before that. This only started happening after moving to the 994.

[sorka]

Was the one that lasted a long time a 2412 PLC as opposed to the 2413PLM? The 2412 had a reputation of being solid; but as an older product it was retired.

 

I found with my first  2413 in 2011 that powerline noise was responsible for making the PLM failing. It was near a furnace motor. I filtered the furnace motor and that was the end of the problem.

 

Paul

 

Yes, the original PLC never had an issue.

[sorka]

This is still occurring. Just happened today. Lost ALL links on my 2 month old PLM. I don't believe for a second that it's a PLM defect. It's happened on every PLM I've had and doesn't appear to happen more with the age of the PLM.

 

I'm losing hope that this will ever be fixed.

[larryllix]

As per paul's report post #9 this sounds like the weak capacitors used in PLMs are being bombarded with powerline noise that the PLM filtering caps have to absorb. You envorinment may be making the PLMs die prematurely.

 

Perhaps a change in filter capacitors to top qulity units, and/or finding the noise source may help.

[Teken]

Where and what is plugged in with the 2413S PLM on the same circuit?

[sorka]

Where and what is plugged in with the 2413S PLM on the same circuit?

 

You mean on the same 15 amp circuit? A router, multiple apple airplays, tivos, an hdmi switch. Is there something you think that could be on the same circuit that would cause the PLM to lose links that WOULDN'T cause bad communication?

[larryllix]

Ewwww. I would try to isolate your ISY from those noise makers on a different circuit, as a trial.

 

You don't have the unit plugged into a UPS do you? They can produce the worst waveforms and burn out lots of devices.

 

Just had another thought. Perhaps your ISY power supply is going bad and all your PLMs just look bad but really it has been the ISY PS.

 

You should probably talk to UDI about this and let them help you get to the bottom of this. You have enough history for them to diagnose this and provide further trials to zero in on this.

[sorka]

Ewwww. I would try to isolate your ISY from those noise makers on a different circuit, as a trial.

 

You don't have the unit plugged into a UPS do you? They can produce the worst waveforms and burn out lots of devices.

 

Just had another thought. Perhaps your ISY power supply is going bad and all your PLMs just look bad but really it has been the ISY PS.

 

You should probably talk to UDI about this and let them help you get to the bottom of this. You have enough history for them to diagnose this and provide further trials to zero in on this.

 

The 994 is the only thing that is in common. I never had this problem with the 99i. If it's the 994 it's well out of warranty although I've been experiencing this issue long before the warranty expired. I've said all along that I don't think this is a PLM issue.

[stusviews]

The 994i is never out of warranty for free support.

[sorka]

The 994i is never out of warranty for free support.

 

That's nice if it doesn't need to be replaced to fix this issue but if it does, then I'm long out of warranty despite having the issue from the very beginning.

[stusviews]

Support has been available from the very beginning.

[sorka]

Support has been available from the very beginning.

 

And support from the very beginning has insisted that it was the PLM. I never said I didn't contact support. I just haven't done it recently.

[Teken]

I would encourage you to filter all of the devices which are on the same circuit using a power bar. Or move the 2413S PLM on to a dedicated circuit which does not have other noise makers / signal suckers on the same branch circuit. When using high quality CAT6 Ethernet cable which is 23 awg you can extend the distance and placement of the 2413S PLM.

 

As serial data has a defined limit . . .

 

Having said this in my personal experience and hundreds of installs I've been able to use 75 feet at the outer limit with out issues. I normally don't exceed 25 feet in most applications and hover around 10-15 feet for (A) Typical installs.

 

This will give you the flexibility to move the 2413S PLM to a circuit (assuming) one exists in that room, area, zone, floor. It should be noted not all CAT6 cable is indeed 23 awg most are 24 awg and many more are using CCA materials.

 

Do not purchase Copper Clad Aluminum (CCA) Ethernet cable from anyone regardless of how cheap it is! As this type of cable is of low quality and isn't approved for in wall use besides casual and random usage.

[MWareman]

I truly cannot see how the PLM losing all its links can be the fault of the ISY. The ISY connects over a serial protocol with limited command sets - the IsY would have had to either issue a reset command, or individually deleted the links (without deleting the links in linked devices). Neither of these scenarios seems plausible at all.

 

The PLM losing links has been caused by bad power (spikes, brownouts, poor waveform) and the infamous capacitor failure that hits many PLMs. I myself have had a PLM loose links twice starting about a month before the PLM finally bit the dust on bad capacitors (about 26 months after purchase).

 

I would be seriously suspicious of the power.... Losing all links unilaterally like that really is a symptom of something going on at the PLM level... not the ISY.

[Brian H]

We have seen a few reports of brand new 2413S PLMs failing in a month or two.

[sorka]

I would encourage you to filter all of the devices which are on the same circuit using a power bar. 

 

This is already the case with everything else on that circuit and then the power strip is plugged into a filterlinc on top of that.

[paulbates]

Going back a few posts, this sounds like there is some kind of significant circuit noise like a motor or a transformer, and possible a filterlinc is not enough. 

 

Is there anything with a motor involved near the PLM, filter or no filter? Like a furnace fan, pool pump, sump pump, dehumidifier? I chronically lost PLMs until I installed one of these to the furnace power feed, it clips peak voltages and I stopped losing PLMs. I eventually replaced the furnace with one with an ECM motor and now its no longer needed. 

 

https://www.amazon.com/X10-Line-Noise-Reducer-XPNR/dp/B0002M5OIY