Brian H Posted September 26, 2017 Posted September 26, 2017 (edited) Not that simple. The main power supply voltage is +12 volts filtered but not regulated. Usually about +21 volts. It powers the Insteon/X10 power line transmitter and feeds some 5 volt linear logic supply regulators. On the main board and the serial daughter board. The 120 Volts Input also feeds a small capacitor derived power supply for the power line Zero Crossing Sensor. So you can't remove the AC supply and substitute a 5 volt external one. You need the ~ 21 volts for the power line transmitter, the 120 VAC signal for the Zero Crossing Sensor for signal timing and power line communications.. When the supply is failing. It goes as low as 6 volts in my tests and the logic supply regulators stop working. Edited September 26, 2017 by Brian H 1
fisix Posted September 27, 2017 Posted September 27, 2017 (edited) Got it. Oh well. Just get good caps and pray. Well, and maybe a whole house surge protector or whatnot. Edited September 27, 2017 by fisix
Brian H Posted September 27, 2017 Posted September 27, 2017 (edited) Getting caps rated for use in switching power supplies for at least C7 and C13 is the best choice. 105 Degree or higher temperature rating also is a good choice. One thing C7 and C13 in older production units are 10uf/35V. Later ones where changed to 100uf/35V. The V2.3 now uses 100uf/50V caps. Due to size now horizontally laying on the PCB with the leads bent 90 degrees to fit the the mounting pads. Small amount of component glue keeping them in place. If I was doing another rebuild. I would probably use a good quality 100uf/35V for C7 and C13. As they mount to the PCB with out glue and bending leads to 90 degrees. Edited September 27, 2017 by Brian H
fisix Posted October 20, 2017 Posted October 20, 2017 Just an update. I went ahead and purchased the selection of caps from Mouser, and installed them in my V1.5 1130 PLM. The LED hadn't dimmed in a way that I could recognize, but given the general failure rate, I went ahead and replaced them because I'm having problems that sound a lot like PLM issues. After replacing the caps and Restoring Devices, everything is working well. I won't know for sure that it was the PLM that was the issue (and therefore needed/benefited from the cap replacement) for at least a few weeks. If the system is reliable for more than a few weeks, it'll be safe to add my PLM to the list of failed/repaired. I still have the old caps, so I guess I could try to measure their capacitance...
Brian H Posted October 20, 2017 Posted October 20, 2017 My first problem PLM was a hardware version 1.5. If you have a tester that can measure the old capacitors ESR along with the capacity. It would give you added information. I don't have a test meter that can read ESR but the capacity of my old ones was less than 50%. A few also showed slight bulging cases or the seal on the bottom was starting to push out.
johnmsch Posted October 20, 2017 Posted October 20, 2017 Thanks guys for a great thread. My v1 2431S just died and I was pointed here from the SH forum. I guess I'm pretty lucky that my PLM lasted over 7 years (purchased in April 2010). I really don't see the value in attempting this repair on the first version of the PLM, so yesterday I ordered a new one from Amazon, with free 2 day shipping. What a pain it was last night having to go around the house turning things on and off manually. Definitely realized how spoiled I've been for the past 15+ years (going back to my first crude X10 setup). Really appreciate all the pertinent and valuable information here!!!
Brian H Posted October 20, 2017 Posted October 20, 2017 A V1.0 is an original design and has some power supply rework to add an extra capacitor and coil. It is not as easy to do the repair. As the capacitors are not directly on the main board. They are kind of hanging above the board with some wires to the board. Not as easy as the later hardware revisions. You probably got a hardware V2.3 or maybe higher now. 2.3 is where Smarthome indicated it fixed a component issue that sometimes caused failures.
johnmsch Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 New PLM was just delivered, installed and restored. The label says Revision 2.4 2917.
Teken Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) New PLM was just delivered, installed and restored. The label says Revision 2.4 2917. LOL ~ Revision 2.4 ?!?! Now if that isn't a real WTF I don't know what is . . . To add insult to injury there is no less than five *Auto Replies* from a nit wit spewing out how hardware revision 2.3 has fixed all of this . . . Edited October 21, 2017 by Teken
Brian H Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Review replies could be correct. Problem parts changed at V2.3. V2.4 may just have a different brand component in it and have nothing to do with reliability. Early days of Insteon. I was told sometimes a revision number advanced because a new brand part was used as the original was unavailable. We will never know unless someone adventitious and has a V2.3. Opens it up and compares V2.3 and V2.4 Yours is a recent production run. 2917 id week 29 of 2017. Is the firmware still 9.E? Edited October 21, 2017 by Brian H
Teken Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 Review replies could be correct. Problem parts changed at V2.3. V2.4 may just have a different brand component in it and have nothing to do with reliability. Early days of Insteon. I was told sometimes a revision number advanced because a new brand part was used as the original was unavailable. We will never know unless someone adventitious and has a V2.3. Opens it up and compares V2.3 and V2.4 Yours is a recent production run. 2917 id week 29 of 2017. Considering almost every capacitor has used the same brand and value its probably not likely. The biggest change was in what 2.1 ~ 2.2?!?! Where there was an increase in voltage and capacitance. Even then it didn't solve the issues so many people continue to have!! Its just another kick at the bucket from my perspective . . . I honestly can't understand how UDI wanting to have on site the ability to reflash the EEPROM was the deciding factor to not move forward from Smartlabs??? If there was ever a shining example of honest, direct, and best practices as a business that is UDI. There must have been more to this story because I can't see how allowing someone the capability to flash firmware was a sticking point. So happy Joe Dadda is gone . . .
Brian H Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 C7 and C13 in my V2.3 are 100uF 50V. Due to size parallel mounted to PCB and component glued to hold them from moving.
Teken Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) C7 and C13 in my V2.3 are 100uF 50V. Due to size parallel mounted to PCB and component glued to hold them from moving. Did you mark down when you physically installed the 2413S PLM? Very eager to see if you make it past two years and XX months. Guess you'll need to circle back in a few ~ LOL Edited October 21, 2017 by Teken
Brian H Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 04/21/17. So we have awhile for a >two year test.
Teken Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 04/21/17. So we have awhile for a >two year test. Well, in all seriousness I really do hope yours last well past the two year mark. I know the very first time having to do the whole *2413S PLM Replacement* wasn't the best of times. It doesn't get easier on the second, third, forth, etc. It just gets you super pissed off and angry . . .
johnmsch Posted October 21, 2017 Posted October 21, 2017 Yours is a recent production run. 2917 id week 29 of 2017. Is the firmware still 9.E? Thanks Brian, didn't know what that "2917" meant. Nice to know this was made just a few months ago. Still can't believe my v1 PLM lasted over 7 years!!!! PLM Info/Status does show v9E.
BCreekDave Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 Is anybody tracking if REPAIRED PLM's are starting to fail? This thread is a few years old now, so we may start seeing them. Maybe this is a permanent fix? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
giesen Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 Is anybody tracking if REPAIRED PLM's are starting to fail? This thread is a few years old now, so we may start seeing them. Maybe this is a permanent fix? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Most people are repairing PLMs with higher quality (and properly-spec'd) components so they should last much longer. The problem was created by Smarthome using poor quality and undersized components to cut costs. Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk
BCreekDave Posted October 22, 2017 Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) Agreed. Just didn't know if the original problem was endemic to the design or the cheap components. If design the problem may reoccur but just later. I repaired mine 3 years ago and it's going strong. Original lasted 3 years I think. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Edited October 22, 2017 by BCreekDave
johnstonf Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Well, in all seriousness I really do hope yours last well past the two year mark. I know the very first time having to do the whole *2413S PLM Replacement* wasn't the best of times. It doesn't get easier on the second, third, forth, etc. It just gets you super pissed off and angry . . . Hi Teken, Did you source a bunch of them as kits you can ship within Canada? I saw an earlier post where you were talking about doing it. if so, can i buy one from you? Just want to be ready, as I'm sure i'm nearing the death of mine, based on all the talk. Fred
Teken Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Hi Teken, Did you source a bunch of them as kits you can ship within Canada? I saw an earlier post where you were talking about doing it. if so, can i buy one from you? Just want to be ready, as I'm sure i'm nearing the death of mine, based on all the talk. Fred Hello Fred, I did purchase a small batch a long time ago. I used four sets myself and since this thread was created. The last eight kits were shipped out to other forum members here in Canada. I guess purchasing two dozen sets would have been ideal! Considering it was a lot cheaper 2-3 years ago along with being able to obtain all of the direct replacement components. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
johnstonf Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 Hello Fred, I did purchase a small batch a long time ago. I used four sets myself and since this thread was created. The last eight kits were shipped out to other forum members here in Canada. I guess purchasing two dozen sets would have been ideal! Considering it was a lot cheaper 2-3 years ago along with being able to obtain all of the direct replacement components. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Thanks Teken... if anyone is willing to ship a kit to me in Canada, please let me know.
lilyoyo1 Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Considering the hardware revision has moved from 2.0 to 2.3 ~ someone is trying. But, its clear to me the lack of any serious engineering standards are being applied. This comes across to me either the powers that be are incompetent or out and out just don't care. They see the 2413S PLM as a regular revenue stream. I am at a complete loss how any company would allow one of the primary components in any serious home automation system continue to have a black eye toward the Insteon brand. I have to assume the new guy who bought the company is working on this or is completely clueless to this problem. A rev can change simply due to something being mfg. from a different company such as a casing. It may not be for the same exact reason in regards to capacitors. The reasons for sourcing can simply be they found cheaper components, mfg. stopped producing a certain item, or changing the build process. I've seen revs change simply because they put a new QSG in the box or changed the outside of the box itself. Edited November 2, 2017 by lilyoyo1
Teken Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 A rev can change simply due to something being mfg. from a different company such as a casing. It may not be for the same exact reason in regards to capacitors. The reasons for sourcing can simply be they found cheaper components, mfg. stopped producing a certain item, or changing the build process. I've seen revs change simply because they put a new QSG in the box or changed the outside of the box itself. Sure, I'll entertain maybe something changed in the *Overall Product* but I won't accept the fact UDI could have come out with a better reliable product. Again, I must state Michel needs to engage the new management to see if this product can be brought to market. One would think allowing someone else to carry the torch would reaffirm to the general public that Smartlabs is even remotely serious. Given there has been zero additions in hardware to the global international market place ~ the company isn't serious. How anyone would let a multi-billion market slip away to the competitor(s) is mind boggling . . . Everyday there is another Kickstarter / IndiGoGo campaign that offers home automation and each of them have been able to obtain all of the required certifications for RF / Power Line. The Smartlabs company has a direct line and process to submit and certify their wares. This really comes down to a lack of care, focus, and business goals. I can tell you with 100% certainty if the new guy comes out with yet another Hub that offers no local connection, access, management, and conditional logic. You already know this guy is completely clueless and isn't serious about the long term survival of the Insteon brand. Let's see where iCS 3 comes to play in all of this because its only been 5 freaking years!!!
lilyoyo1 Posted November 2, 2017 Posted November 2, 2017 Sure, I'll entertain maybe something changed in the *Overall Product* but I won't accept the fact UDI could have come out with a better reliable product. Again, I must state Michel needs to engage the new management to see if this product can be brought to market. One would think allowing someone else to carry the torch would reaffirm to the general public that Smartlabs is even remotely serious. Given there has been zero additions in hardware to the global international market place ~ the company isn't serious. How anyone would let a multi-billion market slip away to the competitor(s) is mind boggling . . . Everyday there is another Kickstarter / IndiGoGo campaign that offers home automation and each of them have been able to obtain all of the required certifications for RF / Power Line. The Smartlabs company has a direct line and process to submit and certify their wares. This really comes down to a lack of care, focus, and business goals. I can tell you with 100% certainty if the new guy comes out with yet another Hub that offers no local connection, access, management, and conditional logic. You already know this guy is completely clueless and isn't serious about the long term survival of the Insteon brand. Let's see where iCS 3 comes to play in all of this because its only been 5 freaking years!!! Insteon has more talent than people realize. Unfortunately in many ways they were shackled due to the lack of focus from leadership. While I too wish they utilized 3rd party more, I understood the hesitation and lack of interest in having other companies churn out insteon products (look at how fractured zwave is). I think this will change in time as the interest of new ownership isn't to keep everything in house. They really didnt let business slip away. To a certain degree yes but overall No. From the outside looking in, its easy to call someone out on something. However from the inside the story is much much different (look at Trump. Forever criticizing Obama but then finds out what that life is really like once he took office). As they restructure under new leadership, I think you will see a difference. It may not be what you want personally (they will always go towards their market despite what power users want), but in time you will see a better company.
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