416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Yeah I mean cloud is so broad, having your own PC always on and available to access remotely such as your photos and files etc can still be even considered the cloud, as it's your own personal one. Really just the ability to take things out of being on prem, and moving them into a data centre where it's far more redundant, bomb proof, plane crash proof, flood proof etc, things that even the nicest office buildings downtown can't compete with. I do share that one concern though in terms of companies going belly up, as even when I buy Insteon stuff it makes me nervous. At least with the ISY and Insteon it would always work, just without new features etc, compared to a system that requires it call home to register and set up, so if that company goes under, you're out of luck. I think the Vera sort of does it well, as you can go to their website or cp.mios.com and log in, and it redirects you to your Vera over the Internet no static IP or DDNS needed. If you're at home, it directs you to the actual IP address of it (or you can just point your browser to that IP as well). So you have the benefit of both.
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Anytime you give up your on Prem servers and allow others to manage it for you. You leave yourself hostage to their SLA. It doesn't matter if they put it down in writing 99.94444%. If you read the fine print this assumes many criteria have been met. Anytime I've had to deal with people freaking about why their mail isn't available, the system is slow, how come they can't perform a archive search etc. I remind them this is why you don't give up that control vs saving money! This has been seen by Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, and will continue to be so. When the general public believe the cloud is invincible, secure, and available all the time. I just laugh because these people simply don't know better. Everyone of these cloud (mail services) are all tapped by the NSA. Storage solutions like Drop Box too are tapped by the NSA via their Prism scam. The cloud is for the lazy and those who don't know better. If you could trust just one thieving government from spying on you then maybe it might be worth it. Otherwise you have simply given up your privacy, freedoms, and content for all to see and use against you. Those who know how to use the cloud effectively are the same people who know how to use credit. You use credit, credit doesn't use you! Same with this idiotic cloud fad that I hope burns down to the ground like Facebook, Twitter, etc. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
G W Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Resistance is futile?A Doctor Who Quote. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
Xathros Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 A Doctor Who Quote. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk Ummm - StarTrek quote actually. The Borg: "Resistance is futile" / "You will be assimilated." Dalek: "Exterminate!" -Xathros
G W Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 A little know fact is that line was used in Doctor Who long before It was used in Star Trek. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
oberkc Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 There is nothing new under the sun. ( speaking of old quotes)
G W Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And cloud services are not new. Just and old technology renamed. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 And cloud services are not new. Just and old technology renamed. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk More aptly it has been made more available for the masses. Back up and remote access has been used for ages in Enterprise. The three major elements that has made it practical and reasonable are smartphones, cheap storage, and high bandwidth. The single most important element has been easy UI's that allow the users a simple drag and drop. Coupled with multi back up and save solutions which sync the content without planning and scheduling. Those are the hall mark of a great cloud experience along with timely updates, everywhere access, and fail over (off site) redundancy. Smartlabs continues to struggle to use the cloud as it was intended. They do not take advantage of pushing updates and features. They do not have a long term plan on where they want the product to be. Without a long term plan you can not scale for growth or be ready for the next iteration of HA. Let's see how the HUB Pro pans out and maybe after 4 generations maybe someone has learnt something. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
G W Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Very good points, Teken. Smarthome needs the capability to update the firmware on their controllers. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Very good points, Teken. Smarthome needs the capability to update the firmware on their controllers. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk That is my point the latest HUB II has this ability yet they don't use it. The real problem is the distinction of *update* has been clouded and masked. Before this whole App thing a update would imply a software applied to the hardware in this case a controller. Now these updates happen on the smartphone App. This is why its hard to tell if Smartlabs or any other cloud based business model actually does anything meaningful. From a hardware perspective once I load firmware / software its there, and just works. In a App, tied to the cloud if the cloud is *Sad* you literally have nothing to control. This was never the case for *Cloud* solutions but more and more of these idiots are creating their services to rely 90% of their use and control on the *Happy* cloud. These are the services and devices people should be aware of and stay 100% away from. The problem is you don't know until you actually use and try the service and sometimes people have invested so much its too late. As much as I throw stones at Smartlabs / Insteon I have always tried to design my systems where the home will always operate independent of a controller. Those who rely heavily on the controller to manage, automate, and operate their homes are simply putting themselves at risk.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Lol I was just about to rip Insteon because when I was on their site a few weeks ago, they show the KPL but it doesn't even work with their Hub, but now it shows it does, so I guess they are updating the Hub as before you couldn't use it with it. Either way that's my concern with Insteon, like they have great products, yet they sell the Hub, which doesn't work with many of them, and doesn't support nearly the level of complex programs the ISY does. HomeSeer, Indigo, any of them do a better job than the Hub does aside from it being so basic. So that's more what I hate, like at least Wink or whatever shows all products made to work with it, where as Insteon is hit or miss the functionality you get if you use the Hub. What is funny is on the KPL section of Insteon.com they show one benefit as being use it with the Garage Door Kit and see the status of your door, yet they show the light being on with a picture of the garage door open, when that's the opposite of how it works, since the sensor is ON when the door is closed not the other way around.
G W Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 One problem with "cloud services" is not so much the cloud but the local connection. Even if the "cloud service" is up 100% there are still several points of failure. Start from the connection to your house and work your way to the service. I like the OPTION of using cloud but the base connection MUST be local. I hope to see UDI come out with a device that has four radios; Wi-Fi, Z-Wave, Zigbee and Bluetooth. At that point UDI can control pretty much any device. The ISY is better than any device I have ever used. UDI needs a good marketing firm but that takes Big Money. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 One problem with "cloud services" is not so much the cloud but the local connection. Even if the "cloud service" is up 100% there are still several points of failure. Start from the connection to your house and work your way to the service. I like the OPTION of using cloud but the base connection MUST be local. I hope to see UDI come out with a device that has four radios; Wi-Fi, Z-Wave, Zigbee and Bluetooth. At that point UDI can control pretty much any device. The ISY is better than any device I have ever used. UDI needs a good marketing firm but that takes Big Money. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk This question was asked and posed several years ago. Michel from UDI indicated the costs were too high and given the track record of many people here. There is simply not enough demand for UDI to invest into this at the moment. I would hope if consumer demand does heat up that they revisit this multi band protocol support. When that ugly Revolv unit came to market even though it was a complete POS device it was truly the first 4 radio HA controller. They never did show much support for the other two protocols like Zigbee. But, that falls squarely on the Zigbee consortium as a whole. I agree the next ISY-995 what ever should be able to support WiFi, BLE, X10, Insteon, ALL Zigbee, Z-Wave.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 I just get concerned when you see so many of these multiple device systems coming out, yet they never ever support Insteon, and when they do, the support is terrible as in you can expect basic things to work, but good luck with anything complex. So that's always a concern to me, as why does no one ever want to include Insteon? I guess since it needs the expensive PLM to work or something, but just when comparing everything they seem to be the best fit overall. I just think that things need to change otherwise there's going to be issues as no one will want Insteon or the ISY. Just watched a review video of the Wink relay, the guy was controlling dropcam, Philips Hue, all native right on it, seemed pretty cool. Lol just a quick edit, just weighed myself on my FitBit Aria scale and made me think of this post as it was uploading my weight and body fat % to the FitBit cloud I think I do have too many connected devices.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 I just downloaded the Wink app for fun to see if it had a demo mode or something like that. When you make your account (mandatory) you have to click accept on 4 separate terms. Two of them stood out, the first one says you agree that all of your usage history and metrics will be transmitted and shared with Wink and their partners. The last one is actually illegal in Canada as it says you accept them adding you to their email mailing list, yet you have to say yes to continue, you can't say no. It's illegal to force someone to join a mailing list or to add them without their consent. Says you can unsubscribe after. I guess that's their workaround, if you don't accept, don't use the app or service, but still shifty. It let me add my Hue lights to it to sort of play a bit. It's impressive in that they are actually supported, like can change colors, and if you turn the on manually, the Wink app not only shows them as on, but the color they are on as well. However it's still basic, like when you try to make a program, it wouldn't let me include a Hue light, like I'd say "When I arrive home, do the following:" and the only options were send a notification. I also tried to make a group called Kitchen, as it just shows all your lights in a row, but it wouldn't let me add the Hue lights to it. Then I tried making an event which is a schedule for the lights, and for all the Hue lights it would say "Not compatible" beside them. Making a shortcut "scene" lets you enter a name, then says "Make this happen:" and there's 0 options. Maybe it needs the hub to make more of this stuff work not sure as many that's why my phone app can only turn the Hue lights on as an event if it's the Hub doing it.
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 What's the deal with this Insteon Hub Pro? Didn't even see it before but says it supports HomeKit? It shows the normal hub then says Hub Pro coming soon, but the photo of the normal Hub doesn't look like mine, mine looks more like the Hub pro which is more rectangular. Does anyone know if that means the one I have may potentially feature whatever the Pro offers, or is mine basically just a regular one but they changed the shape of the unit?
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 What's the deal with this Insteon Hub Pro? Didn't even see it before but says it supports HomeKit? It shows the normal hub then says Hub Pro coming soon, but the photo of the normal Hub doesn't look like mine, mine looks more like the Hub pro which is more rectangular. Does anyone know if that means the one I have may potentially feature whatever the Pro offers, or is mine basically just a regular one but they changed the shape of the unit? It comes out in two months. Your unit will not be updated to a pro. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
416to305 Posted January 19, 2015 Author Posted January 19, 2015 Luckily my unit cost nothing as it was part of a bundle. This new one looks pretty awesome in the screenshots, but what technology does it use, surely not just Insteon? The screenshots show "3 Windows are open, Front Door is unlocked" and also shows Hue Lights. Could be a triggerlinc I guess on the Windows, but the door unlocked can't be Insteon since the Morning Industries thing doesn't do status. Would be cool if this one actually supported programs finally. The website compares the Hub to Indigo, ISY and others but just the 2012 and 2014 Hub not the Pro, so be interesting to see how it goes. I really hope HomeKit takes off, be so nice to just buy any product and look for the icon on the box and know it will work in the way that all things Apple just work effortlessly.
Teken Posted January 19, 2015 Posted January 19, 2015 Luckily my unit cost nothing as it was part of a bundle. This new one looks pretty awesome in the screenshots, but what technology does it use, surely not just Insteon? The screenshots show "3 Windows are open, Front Door is unlocked" and also shows Hue Lights. Could be a triggerlinc I guess on the Windows, but the door unlocked can't be Insteon since the Morning Industries thing doesn't do status. Would be cool if this one actually supported programs finally. The website compares the Hub to Indigo, ISY and others but just the 2012 and 2014 Hub not the Pro, so be interesting to see how it goes. I really hope HomeKit takes off, be so nice to just buy any product and look for the icon on the box and know it will work in the way that all things Apple just work effortlessly. All this thing does is support Insteon and Apple Home Kit. This indirectly allows support for all other protocols and devices. I am more interested in seeing if they finally release some kind of conditional logic. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cfreeland Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Wink hub can be rooted to run local, their is a site or 2 that show how it is done. The vera plugin claims to work with both rooted and non rooted Wink's and for what it's worth it is rumored that local controle for all is planed for future.
Teken Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Wink hub can be rooted to run local, their is a site or 2 that show how it is done. The vera plugin claims to work with both rooted and non rooted Wink's and for what it's worth it is rumored that local controle for all is planed for future. Nice, any related links to this information would be greatly appreciated.
Cfreeland Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Here is one link for rooting Wink. http://tattiebogle.net/index.php/ProjectRoot/WinkHub
416to305 Posted January 20, 2015 Author Posted January 20, 2015 There's a plugin already for Wink for Vera!?!?!?! Serious! This is what I'm talking about with the Vera, like who uses it!? It's so crappy and seems like the ISY is so much better, but Vera gets plugin after plugin and they are always made by users. Is the ISY hard to create plugins for or something or is it not possible? What is exciting though is how with REST and plugins and what not, it's getting easier to use multiple platforms and integrate them together. Lol I HAD to paste this quote in from the Vera forum talking about the Wink plugin, as it's recent and sums up Vera perfectly: "Now if I could only find a way to restart Vera at night so that it doesn't freeze on me the my HA would be firing on all cylinders."
Michel Kohanim Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Hello all, Just a few comments : 1. To cloud or not to cloud! Well isy is agnostic: there are few cloud based portals for ISY including our beloved MobiLinc Connect. So for us the answer is both 2. Multiple radios: yes in our next hardware rev. This said the main constraint remains development and not hardware 3. Wink: our focus is not selective and shallow support for many protocols. It's deep support for a few protocols. So I doubt we would ever be anything close to Wink 4. Integration: 5.x is cooking up pretty well and provides easy integration with almost anything on the the network using virtual nodes. The initial release will require something like io_guy's masterpieces 5. Enhanced variables are going to be icing on the cake! With kind regards, Michel
G W Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 That is all good news Mr. Kohanim! I think answers almost every concern. Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk
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