Simple 3 way dimmer switch question

[fahrvergnuugen]

EDIT FOR THOSE NEW TO THIS POST:

I had everything setup correctly, this is just missing functionality. There currently is no way to set a scene of devices to a specific brightness level on demand. A feature request has been submitted here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15383-direct-scene-brightness/

 

 

Original Post:

Sorry if this has been posted here before, but I searched and could not find an answer.

 

I'm having the most basic problem - I have a 3 way dimmer switch setup and I'm having problems getting it to work right. The LEDs on the two dimmers keep going out of sync.

 

 

1) Is there a difference between a "group" and a "scene"? Insteon instructions say that a group is simply a set of switches that are responders and controllers of each other.

 

1.1) How do you create an Insteon Group with the ISY Interface? To manually achieve this, I pressed and held the set button on the first switch, then press and hold the set button on the second switch. It will beep. Then repeat in the opposite order. My understanding is that this will make both switches a controller and both switches a responder to each other. This makes it so the LEDs stay synchronized when I physically touch the switch to brighten or dim.

 

Is there a way to do this with the ISY interface?

 

 

 

 

2) Despite these switches being manually grouped, when I use the ISY admin console to set the brightness of the switch with the load connected, the slave switch's LED does not update. When I manually set the brightness of the slave switch, the switch with the load connected does not update.

 

Is there a way to fix this?

I have begun writing an app that interfaces with the REST api, but I can't figure out how to adjust the brightness of these three way switches and keep the LEDs synchronized.

 

2.1) I thought might be able to fix this by using a Scene, but there doesn't appear to be a way to set a direct brightness level for a scene, is that correct?

 

 

Screenshots of the setup:

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi fahrvergnuugen,
 

1. Group = Scene

2. You need to create scenes within ISY and not outside of ISY

2a. http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

2b. Video instructions: 

 

If you are still having problems, please do not hesitate to contact our tech support (links below) and we'd be delighted to walk you through it.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[EricK]

Do what Michel suggested.

Your 4th picture shows your dining room scene. You have highlighted the scene name so the response levels shown in the right window are for when the scene is triggered by the isy itself. You have to click on the two red controllers, master and slave, to set the responder levels for when they trigger the scene.

You can set the responder levels for the isy and the click each controller and click the copy attributes box if you want the same response levels.

E

[fahrvergnuugen]

I removed my switches from the scene and then recorded this video to show how I re-added them and that the problem still persists. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I can't figure out what. As far as I can tell I did the same exact thing as the example in the video, however the video is not dealing with dimmer switches.

 

 

Notice when I adjust the brightness of the Master dimmer switch, the Slave dimmer value does not change and vice versa.

[EricK]

You set everything up properly.

However, When you are using the admin console to adjust a single device, only that device is controlled. For example you are controlling the master switch and only the master switch only. If you turn off only the master switch the slave switch does not and should not respond to this. This is why you have a scene. If you want to control more than one device, use the scene. If you go to your physical switches, are you seeing the behavior you want.

[stusviews]

Info only: in any virtual multi-way configuration, double-tapping a slave device will not affect the load. Double-tapping has an effect on the local (wired) load only. The same is true for a second tap if the load is already on, but not at 100%, only the local load goes to full on.

[fahrvergnuugen]

Info only: in any virtual multi-way configuration, double-tapping a slave device will not affect the load. Double-tapping has an effect on the local (wired) load only. The same is true for a second tap if the load is already on, but not at 100%, only the local load goes to full on.

Double tapping the slave switch in my setup sets the master to 100% instantly. That works as desired.

[fahrvergnuugen]

You set everything up properly.

However, When you are using the admin console to adjust a single device, only that device is controlled. For example you are controlling the master switch and only the master switch only. If you turn off only the master switch the slave switch does not and should not respond to this. This is why you have a scene. If you want to control more than one device, use the scene. If you go to your physical switches, are you seeing the behavior you want.

 

So I ran into this problem because I'm building an iOS app to control my lights. All of my dimmer switches are rendered as sliders. I'm sending commands to the ISY's REST API like this: http://10.0.0.0/<NodeAddress>/cmd/DON/<Slider Brightness Value>

 

Where <Node Address> is the address of one of the switches in the scene and <Slider Brightness Value> is a value from 0 to 255.

 

And of course the switch LEDs are going out of sync.

 

Is there another way to adjust the brightness in a multiway virtual switch that keeps all of the switches in sync?

 

[Jimbo.Automates]

You should change the scene instead of the device.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[fahrvergnuugen]

You should change the scene instead of the device.

 

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

Understood however you cannot set the brightness level for a scene as far as I know. You can only turn it on, off, fast on, fast off, brighten or dim. I wish you could set a specific brightness, but it doesn't seem to be supported.

 

I tried:  http:// 10.0.0.0/<Scene Address>/cmd/DON/<SliderBrightness Value>

 

The brightness value is ignored, the scene just turns on. It would be awesome if the ISY would just set all of the devices in the scene to the brightness level that was passed in....

[LeeG]

The On Level and Ramp Rate for the Responders of a Scene are located in the Responder link record for each Responder.  The link record(s) have to be changed.   This can be done using the Admin Console, and in a Program with Adjust Scene statements.  Will have to do some searching to see if there is a REST command that updates the responder link records. 

[fahrvergnuugen]

The On Level and Ramp Rate for the Responders of a Scene are located in the Responder link record for each Responder.  The link record(s) have to be changed.   This can be done using the Admin Console, and in a Program with Adjust Scene statements.  Will have to do some searching to see if there is a REST command that updates the responder link records. 

 

I don't want to change the on levels, i just want to set the brightness of the scene. I understand this isn't supported natively by insteon, but it should be trivial to write a loop that sends a discrete brightness level to each dimmable device in the scene. It would be nice if the ISY had this feature imo.

[fahrvergnuugen]

Just submitted a feature request here: http://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/15383-direct-scene-brightness/

[LeeG]

The ISY has this function.  What you are referring to as Scene Brightness, Insteon refers to as Scene Responder On Level.  This change in Responder On Level is done with Adjust Scene statements.  Done this way all Responder On Levels are set as needed and the status LEDs stay in sync. 

[stusviews]

Double tapping the slave switch in my setup sets the master to 100% instantly. That works as desired.

 

You're correct. It's single tapping on a secondary that's on, but not at 100% that doesn't bring the load full on as does single tapping on the primary device when the load is partially on.

[fahrvergnuugen]

You're correct. It's single tapping on a secondary that's on, but not at 100% that doesn't bring the load full on as does single tapping on the primary device when the load is partially on.

Yup, you're right. How annoying is that!

I don't know if my OCD can handle this home automation business...

The ISY has this function.  What you are referring to as Scene Brightness, Insteon refers to as Scene Responder On Level.  This change in Responder On Level is done with Adjust Scene statements.  Done this way all Responder On Levels are set as needed and the status LEDs stay in sync. 

 

Doesn't that require a write back to the switch's link database in order to update it?

[LeeG]

"Doesn't that require a write back to the switch's link database in order to update it?"

 

Yes, the Adjust Scene does that.   Changing the On Levels (Brightness) of the responders leaves  the Scenes unchanged.   As soon as any of the On paddles/buttons is pressed all the responders go to the original Scene definition. 

[fahrvergnuugen]

"Doesn't that require a write back to the switch's link database in order to update it?"

 

Yes, the Adjust Scene does that.   Changing the On Levels (Brightness) of the responders leaves  the Scenes unchanged.   As soon as any of the On paddles/buttons is pressed all the responders go to the original Scene definition. 

 

Right, and that would mean that every time i adjust the brightness from my mobile app, the on level of the scene would be changed, so the next person who physically taps the on button on the switch will get the last brightness level someone else in the house set from their phone. I don't think that's a solution.

[LeeG]

Okay.   Then set the local device levels as you want them.  I would think someone would expect the devices to move up/down from current displayed level but that is just my opinion.  If the phone changes should be ignored certainly do not change Scene levels.

[fahrvergnuugen]

Okay.   Then set the local device levels as you want them.  I would think someone would expect the devices to move up/down from current displayed level but that is just my opinion.  If the phone changes should be ignored certainly do not change Scene levels.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to adjust the scene's on level, I'm trying to adjust the scene's current brightness level. It's a missing feature that I think makes sense to add.

[LeeG]

"I'm trying to adjust the scene's current brightness level"

 

There is no such thing in Insteon as a "Scene's current brightness level".  There are Scene Responder On Levels and Scene Responder Ramp Rates, all of which can be specified when the Scene is defined and can be changed dynamically with Adjust Scene Program statements.  The Scenes current brightness as you have defined cannot be changed as it does not exist today. 

 

You can certainly request SmartLabs add new Scene function but nothing like that exists today.      

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi fahrvergnuugen,

 

LeeG is correct. You might want to do instead is to either use DIM or BRT commands (you will need to have a loop in your code) or use BMAN/1 (Fade Up Start), BMAN/0 (Fade Down Start) and followed by SMAN (Fade Stop). You can use a timer in your code to issue SMAN. In short, two calls: one to start fading up/down and one to stop fading.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[fahrvergnuugen]

Hi fahrvergnuugen,

 

LeeG is correct. You might want to do instead is to either use DIM or BRT commands (you will need to have a loop in your code) or use BMAN/1 (Fade Up Start), BMAN/0 (Fade Down Start) and followed by SMAN (Fade Stop). You can use a timer in your code to issue SMAN. In short, two calls: one to start fading up/down and one to stop fading.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

 

I fully understand that insteon has no such thing as a scene brightness level. If you think about it, insteon predates hubs and mobile devices - they didn't envision a scenario where someone might want to set the brightness of a 3 way switch without physically using one of the switches. I will send insteon a suggestion that they should support scene brightness natively, but that would require a firmware update to all existing devices, which seems highly unlikely.

 

The ISY is completely capable of filling this functionally void in an elegant way (as described in my product suggestion post).

Why not do it? It adds value for customers, solves a real problem, fits nicely in the feature set already provided and gives people more of a reason to buy an ISY.

 

In the mean time, I'll try and create a work around in my GUI, which really isn't the right place to do it.

[stusviews]

A scene brightness level could be detrimental. For example. several of my scenes include turning some devices off. If I want to change the brightness of the on devices up, then the off devices would no longer be off.

[fahrvergnuugen]

A scene brightness level could be detrimental. For example. several of my scenes include turning some devices off. If I want to change the brightness of the on devices up, then the off devices would no longer be off.

You could still just issue the Bright command.

 

Implementing support for sending a direct scene brightness command would do nothing to your existing scenes unless you started using it.