rlanza1054 Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Hi, I was reading the Smarthome Home Automation and one thing was pointed out in the book. This is imprortant for those trying to save on their electric bill. It stated that installing one Insteon Wall Dimmer uses very little electricity but when you start to add up all of the Insteomn devices it could end up being a lot. What I would like, for a way to give a report on how much electricity all of your devices are using. The figures for how to get that calculation, are included with each devices documentation: Example: The Dimmer and most of the device have a rating of <1 Watt Standy-By Power. I have to assume that that is 1 Watt and it doesn't state how much wattage is used when its sendig a powerline signal or rf signal. So then you add up all the devices with this figure and you get something surprising. I have about 22 devices, so that's 22 watts to jusy run the Insteon device 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I will be paying 21.5 cents a kilowatt per hour. So the calculation would bring it to $41.44 per year! I used a watts to kilowatt hour on from google. I don't how much the ISY itself uses. I know with Houselinc you can check of if you have load connected, I assumed you did all the time, and you can put in a field the wattage of the load. If the ISY is able to get those fields working, we could get a general idea of energy usage without hooking up energy meters. Granted its won't be a perfect measurement but you would get an idea. But the ISY would know how long the load was in use and how long it was not. Throw it all into variables and do some calculation presto. Maybe offer this feature as an add-on, but of course its not something as grand as the ELK stuff. It just would be something simple to give people an idea. And it should be sold as that/ If people want more or more accurate stuff, they need to get the ELK stuff or iMeters Solo's or any other capatible energy usage meters. Rob That all. Rob
oberkc Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 This is imprortant for those trying to save on their electric bill. It helps, also, to keep in mind that if your goal is simply to save money, do you really think you will ever save enough in the cost of electricity to offset the cost of the insteon devices? Can you save $50 by installing a single insteon switch? How long does that take? I have heard different numbers about the power and energy consumed by a typical insteon device. If we assume one watt (specifications for a switchlinc claim .59 watts) at 24 hours/day and 30 days/month, you consume .72KWH each month. In most places, I suspect this is less than a dime per month per device in energy consumption. Fifty devices would be $5 per month or less. Can you save $5 per month by installing 50 insteon devices? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Could you be using more energy by installing automation?
Teken Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Insteon products over the years have consumed any where from 0.43 watts up to 1.43 watts. The reality is if energy consumption is the primary driver installing any electronic device into the home is not going to let you meet that goal. Home Automation (HA) is a novel way and method to help those who use excessive electricity to assist in the management of such. But if the primary driver was energy conservation than any dumb switch would excel far past any smart switch. Given the price of dumb switches vs a smart switch the ROI in terms of savings is 10-20 years down the line. If ROI is not part of the equation and mixed elements such as safety, security, convenience, along with energy conservation. HA Smart Switches / modules can play a good part in those goals. I personally measure every aspect of my home and its electrical loads and know exactly at any given time what it cost and how much those loads contribute to my monthly energy bill. Even though I have vast amounts of information that I can act upon the bottom line is it comes down to lifestyle and behavior changes. Its safe to say 90% of the people I have met don't place energy conservation at the top of their list or even talk about it in any meaningful way. As I have mentioned many times people focus on the small things and not the big things. You will reap more savings by doing a energy audit in your home. This will identify all areas in the home where you're either leaking conditioned air or allowing outside environmental's to impact the conditioned space. Once you have corrected for air movement (air exchange per hour) and insulated the home to a sufficient manner. The savings in sealing and insulation will save you more per month, never mind per year. Then any smart switch no matter how smart or energy wise they are. Bottom line, seal, insulate, and reduce heat soaking / energy transfer . . .
stusviews Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 HA is a convenience, not necessarily an energy saving technique, although it can be. Saving energy is not always synonymous with saving $.
larryllix Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Saving money on lighting was a valid point, when it was all incandescent, but since the CFL and LED revolution, things have changed.
madman Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 It's kinda hard to save money by spending more money than what you will save in the long run. I don't see HA as a way to save money on electricity. I see it as a way to provide security and have some improvements on my air quality (humidity levels) Like Teken mentioned, the ROI on insulating your house and controlling your air quality is much much higher than turning off a few lights. I live in an area of extreme humidity during the summer and extreme cold during the winter. In less than one year after purchasing the 68 year old house I live in now, I was able to shave hundreds of dollars from my energy bill by investing in weatherizing my house, which can be difficult in an old home. I'm talking about hundreds of dollars a month..... Humidity control is another area where can have a big impact in the long run... specially when talking about health benefits
Teken Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Agreed on air quality and environmental temperatures can be maintained over a long period of time. Savings will be seen and the ROI will be reasonable vs the investment. Don't get me wrong I love everything about HA and smart devices and how it makes my life easier, safer, and just freaking cool! HA in simple terms is a want then a real need. The only time I've seen it as a real need has been to help those with disabilities or who have some kind of restriction. This is where in my mind technology has helped many to enjoy life and have the same quality of life as others. The next big step for me is seeing some kind of interactive AI that will assist the home and user. Ideals are peaceful - History is violent
paulbates Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 It's kinda hard to save money by spending more money than what you will save in the long run. I don't see HA as a way to save money on electricity. I see it as a way to provide security and have some improvements on my air quality (humidity levels) Like Teken mentioned, the ROI on insulating your house and controlling your air quality is much much higher than turning off a few lights. I live in an area of extreme humidity during the summer and extreme cold during the winter. In less than one year after purchasing the 68 year old house I live in now, I was able to shave hundreds of dollars from my energy bill by investing in weatherizing my house, which can be difficult in an old home. I'm talking about hundreds of dollars a month..... Humidity control is another area where can have a big impact in the long run... specially when talking about health benefits This is where I'm at too. Same humid summers and cold winters. Having talked to Teken and others; Insulating and sealing have made the most difference. I just got $1500 back from my utility for a $5000 insulation job, and as indicated, the AC in the old part of my house is running a lot less, same with the dehumidifier in the basement. Sprinkling programs may be in a close second place for cost savings. Canceling for actual rainfall and forecast have saved a lot, though my water cost is high. Electric control has saved some for things like an attic fan that used to run a lot, but is not close to the savings of Insulation work and sprinkling control. HVAC control allows regular air recirculation and humidity control in winter.. both proven valuable for health improvement reasons, but actually use more energy and water, they don't save. Paul
smokegrub Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 There are situations where HA devices can readily pay for themselves. For example, We have a vacation home that we visit every two weeks during the summer. It has a hot water heater that we leave on throughout the summer simply because we don't want to wait on hot water when we arrive there. I am installing an ApplianceLinc and an Elk-9200 on the heater. We will turn the heater off when we leave and turn it on as we start the trip there. My estimate is that I will easily pay for the devices the first year. After that, all savings will be gravy. Likewise, automated thermostats are going to allow me to use large setbacks at our primary residence while away and arrive home to a comfortable home. I will even be able to change settings remotely if the weather changes while we are away! I expect savings there as well. Also, I don't know about you, but I or my wife often leave lights and other devices on throughout the house. A glance at my MobiLinc enables me to see where these are and turn them off. There are also potential significant non-energy related savings. For example, We have a well at the vacation home. I use two Insteon devices to email me when the pump turns on and off--they also give me the ability to turn the pump off remotely if an apparent problem exists. Otherwise, if a break were to occur or if someone left a hose bibb on while we are away, the well could pump dry and the pump destroyed. And, probably my best overall savings has involved those related to avoidance of new complex wiring. Prior to using HA I found myself routinely thinking if only the builder had foreseen the need of several different circuits. I have them now and at very little cost. Moreover, I can change their use at will! The list could go on but there can be substantial direct and indirect savings using Insteon devices. I can't imagine living in my home without HA.
rlanza1054 Posted August 29, 2015 Author Posted August 29, 2015 Yeah, while upgrading to Insteon from afew X-10 to totally all Insteon, I happened to pick up a copy and read Snarthome Home Automation. Lee was mentioned in the book. There was a line in the book, that caught me off guard. It was what I wrote in the post, I don't think when installing these modules we actual realize that they take power to just sit there in standy, waiting for a commications signal. I don't think we reallized it. I never gave it a thought until the book mentioned it. In my case, I live in a coop that was built in 1957, it was part of a Housing program in NYC called Mitchell-Lama, it was affordable Housing for middle income people to own something of their own. I think it was before the time you had condos. Anyway, my father purchased this 3 bedroom, 2 bathroom (1 full bathroom, 1 half bathroom, only toilet and sink) in 1957 for a total of $3000. The maintenance was about $120 per month. And it included ALL utilities, free gas and electric. About 20 years ago, we went private and broke away from Mitchell-Lama program. The day before it went private if we sold it we would have gotten only $17000. Which is really just the cost of inflation. The day we went private the price of the coop on the open market was $80,000. Today, this apartment, goes for $475.000! The maintenance is now $869. I have not had any maintenance increase in about 10 years. We are self managed and have never been in the red. But because of the continual increases in gas and electric, they decided this spring that they will be install next March, 'sub-meters'. We will for the first time be paying for our own electric, and I am a hog! The day after we were told I ran out and changed everything to LED's, out $20 Electric Usage Meters on some things, got a few I Meter Solo's, and upgraded everything to Insteon. This I never leave a light on longer than its needed. I will be using some Insteon switch to turn off some stuff at night so those items will no longer run 24/7, etc. That's why I started the topic. Rob
madman Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 Yeah, while upgrading to Insteon from afew X-10 to totally all Insteon, I happened to pick up a copy and read Snarthome Home Automation. Lee was mentioned in the book. ....... We will for the first time be paying for our own electric, and I am a hog! The day after we were told I ran out and changed everything to LED's, out $20 Electric Usage Meters on some things, got a few I Meter Solo's, and upgraded everything to Insteon. This I never leave a light on longer than its needed. I will be using some Insteon switch to turn off some stuff at night so those items will no longer run 24/7, etc. That's why I started the topic. Rob You probably spent more money on switching to insteon than you will ever be able to save on electricity if you consider the actual life of an insteon device. Sad but true
stusviews Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 A goal of HA is to luxuriate, not economize. HA can excel in energy saving by automating turning lighting off or to dimmer levels, similar to the way a thermostat operates. Energy saved is a side benefit of HA.
MWareman Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 A goal of HA is to luxuriate, not economize. HA can excel in energy saving by automating turning lighting off or to dimmer levels, similar to the way a thermostat operates. Energy saved is a side benefit of HA.Absolutely agree. Worth adding though that it's doubtful any savings obtained will ever compensate for the investment involved.
madman Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Absolutely agree. Worth adding though that it's doubtful any savings obtained will ever compensate for the investment involved. That's the thing. Here in my area, an estimated cost for a CFL bulb to run 5 hours a day is of around 4 dollars a year. Insteon devices cost around 35-45 dollars. If one insteon device controls 2 CFL bulbs, it would have to cut usage by 50% do get a return in 10 years. In 10 years you will probably have to replace it anyway. (I priced the insteon device at 40 dollars for this example, and I assumed the lights are on 5 hours a day) So, it's basically impossible to save money on just controlling the lights with HA. Keep in mind that the other alternative is to manually turn off the lights, which is as easy as flipping a switch.....
stusviews Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Keep in mind that the other alternative is to manually turn off the lights, which is as easy as flipping a switch..... There is an interval that passes from the conception of turning the light off until the switch is reached. That also requires the effort of moving an entire body instead of just a finger. A waste of both time and energy
larryllix Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 There is an interval that passes from the conception of turning the light off until the switch is reached. That also requires the effort of moving an entire body instead of just a finger. A waste of both time and energy Yeah but.... The extra heat generated by your body actually moving to the switch can generate free heat that isn't then required by your heating system. We find wearing our 2441ZTH units on our backs guarantees we will be comfortable regardless of air temperatures. Highly recommended. On that note there are caveats. You may be into a hotter season, having to A/C the human body heat out again, and having to actually get up and operate the switch may not be good for teenagers as the food bill increase has to be formulated into this equation. The energy saved by HA may outweigh the pizza delivery costs and be economical, after all factors are considered. But then there is the green aspect with fuel increase in fuel consumption the delivery.....
larryllix Posted September 8, 2015 Posted September 8, 2015 It's just so ridiculous thinking anybody in their right mind would actually flip a switch with their bare finger!! This could be a major player in the spread of the next plague or pandemic and I am not about to purchase latex gloves full of monoxyl 9 in them just to turn lights on or off in my home or office. ISY994i HA may be the strength and resistance against other oppressive nations if chem/germ warfare ever broke out. We have the right to bare fingers! ISY forever!
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