Wingsy Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Have a 2450 (v2.3) I/O Linc. My ultimate objective is to trigger the I/O Linc output ON for 20 seconds when triggered. The trigger source is an infrared beam sensor, giving a closed contact when the beam is broken. This is used as a stairway light - step on the first step to break the beam and the lights (12v) embedded in the wall come on for a period of time. I can do this by setting an Open/Close module as a controller for the IOLinc, and setting the IOLinc for "Momentary B: Triggered by both On and Off". (This works well enough, but sometimes if the Open/Close makes several transitions while the IOLinc is timing out, then the next event from the Open/Close is ignored. But that's another story.) What I want to do is to use the IOLinc's sensor input in place of the Open/Close. But if I create a scene using its sensor as the controller, nothing happens. It never triggers the relay. What's going on?
larryllix Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 How is the open/close module mounted and what does it detect?
Wingsy Posted September 20, 2015 Author Posted September 20, 2015 Right now it's sitting on my desk. It detects the reed switch closure when I move the magnet close to the sensor. When I have it wired to my stairway light system it detects a contact closure generated by the infrared sensor (which is not an Insteon device).
larryllix Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 I/O Linc modules have options that can be accessed from the device's status page in Admin Console. There you can set whether the sensor is hard connected to the output contact or not, as well, there are options to set the contact to momentary and/or continuous. as well as to initiate it on various logic triggers. Without looking closer at my own you may be able to set the momentary timeout to do what you want on a self trigger on only have ISY monitor the action. No scene required. Another possibility for more control would be to remove any scene you have created inside it and just use a program with the sensor as the trigger and the output as the light control. Expect a slight communication and ISY delay for the light though. Program examples can be supplied if needed. It seems fairly straightforward using that technique.
jerlands Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Have a 2450 (v2.3) I/O Linc. My ultimate objective is to trigger the I/O Linc output ON for 20 seconds when triggered. The trigger source is an infrared beam sensor, giving a closed contact when the beam is broken. This is used as a stairway light - step on the first step to break the beam and the lights (12v) embedded in the wall come on for a period of time. I can do this by setting an Open/Close module as a controller for the IOLinc, and setting the IOLinc for "Momentary B: Triggered by both On and Off". (This works well enough, but sometimes if the Open/Close makes several transitions while the IOLinc is timing out, then the next event from the Open/Close is ignored. But that's another story.) What I want to do is to use the IOLinc's sensor input in place of the Open/Close. But if I create a scene using its sensor as the controller, nothing happens. It never triggers the relay. What's going on? The IOLinc is still confusing to me My understanding... it's two devices in one.. i.e., two nodes.. the sensor is indicated by 1 following the address. They act independently unless linked using "Momentary C." Jon..
paulbates Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 There can be conditions where devices that are supposed to trigger a dry contact electronically don't do that to the satisfaction of the ioloinc, and it won't register the "close". This means that dry contact bench tests work, but real world connections to devices like the infrared beam sensor do not.. A symptom of this is that the green LED on the iolinc will glow when there is an attempt to activate it with a device like the infrared beam sensor, vs bright green when bench testing with physical contact. I have had this happen with a current sensor to see if an appliance is on. The current sensor didn't do enough to convince the iolinc it was contacted, but it would make the iolincs led glow a little, which makes it appear it was activated. Are you able to get the iolinc to read an "on" at all, observed at the admin console, without the scene, using the infrared beam sensor as the trigger?
Wingsy Posted September 20, 2015 Author Posted September 20, 2015 I/O Linc modules have options that can be accessed from the device's status page in Admin Console. There you can set whether the sensor is hard connected to the output contact or not, as well, there are options to set the contact to momentary and/or continuous. as well as to initiate it on various logic triggers. Without looking closer at my own you may be able to set the momentary timeout to do what you want on a self trigger on only have ISY monitor the action. No scene required. Another possibility for more control would be to remove any scene you have created inside it and just use a program with the sensor as the trigger and the output as the light control. Expect a slight communication and ISY delay for the light though. Program examples can be supplied if needed. It seems fairly straightforward using that technique. I've already done that. Wrote a program to do exactly what I wanted. Except that it sometimes takes the ISY eons to respond to the sensor input and activate the relay output to turn on the lights. And by that time you're already at the 3rd or 4th step and have hit that toy firetruck parked on step #3. If I set the IOLinc so that the relay output follows the sensor input the response is consistently instantaneous. It would be nice if setting a scene using the sensor on the IOLinc to control the relay worked as quickly, but it won't work AT ALL. I can't set a scene using the IOLinc sensor to control the relay. As it stands now, using the Open/Close sensor as a controller in a scene to control the relay for a timed duration works fairly good. Response time is acceptable. What it lacks is the ability to be re-triggered while it is timing out so that if another person goes into the stairway while the light is already on that they get the full 20 seconds of light. It won't re-trigger so it goes out 20 seconds after the first person hits the steps, regardless. A program will re-trigger but a timed output using a scene won't. "Momentary C: Trigger based on sensor input" doesn't work either. With the IOLinc in front of me right now this is what I get: (Delay time set for 20 sec. Sensor input is 2 wires shorted together, or not. IOLinc sensor is scene controller, relay is scene responder.) Checking "Relay Follows Input", the relay does follow the input. When the input is closed the relay is closed. When open the relay opens, and no other options have any effect. Choosing "Latching: Continuous", relay does nothing. Choosing "Momentary A: Triggered by Either On or Off", relay does nothing. Choosing "Momentary B: Triggered by Both On and Off", relay does nothing. (Someone please explain the difference between A and B.) Choosing "Momentary C: Triggered Based on Sensor Input", relay does nothing (even with no scene established). When I change the scene to have the Open/Close sensor as the controller, I was hoping that Latching would indeed latch. Then I could use the ISY program to time the relay opening and also re-trigger if necessary. OK, it does latch... BUT NOW it latches ON when the sensor goes from closed to open (i.e., when someone's foot leaves the first step and goes to the 2nd. Too late) and does nothing when it goes from open to closed (when a foot hits the 1st step). Ahah! So I select "Trigger Reverse" to correct this. BUT THEN, it triggers the relay when closed but ALSO causes the relay to open as soon as the input opens, as in "Relay follows Open/Close Sensor". If I had hair to spare I'd pull it out! Choosing A, the relay does nothing when the sensor input is closed and the relay closes when the sensor input opens (wrong sense). Choosing "Trigger Reverse" has no effect. Choosing B, and I'm almost there. Relay closes when the input transitions from open-to-close and vice versa. But it doesn't re-trigger and can miss the next transition if there are several transitions while the relay is closed. Happens sometimes. Choosing C was covered earlier. Nothing.
LeeG Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Momentary A - either the On command or the Off command will turn the Relay On but ONLY ONE command, either On or Off, is functional. Momentary B - either On or Off command will turn Relay On. Both commands work. EDIT: my I/O Linc Relays will not act as a Responder to a Scene with the I/O Linc Sensor as Controller. I have one or two KPLs that have the same limitation. Edited September 20, 2015 by LeeG
larryllix Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 (edited) Momentary A - either the On command or the Off command will turn the Relay On but ONLY ONE command, either On or Off, is functional. Momentary B - either On or Off command will turn Relay On. Both commands work. EDIT: my I/O Linc Relays will not act as a Responder to a Scene with the I/O Linc Sensor as Controller. I have one or two KPLs that have the same limitation. That's what I read on the options box also but it makes no sense to me as both A and B state the same thing "either the On command or the Off command". Can you explain the follow up "But only one". What defines which one? Edited September 20, 2015 by larryllix
LeeG Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 From the I/O Linc Owners Manual Momentary A Either an ON or OFF command can be programmed to trigger the I/O Linc relay. The other command will be ignored. For example, if an ON command is programmed to trigger the relay, an OFF command will be ignored Momentary B Send either an ON or an OFF command to trigger the I/O Linc relay. The I/O Linc relay will respond to both.
jerlands Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 Choosing "Momentary C: Triggered Based on Sensor Input", relay does nothing (even with no scene established). Choosing C was covered earlier. Nothing. The original query was "Triggering IOLinc Relay with IOLinc Sensor." Select "Relay follows Input" and "Momentary C" Jon...
jerlands Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 For now try "0" for momentary hold time... Jon...
LeeG Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 The "Relay follows input" option does cause the Relay to turn On when the Sensor turns On. Unfortunately that means when the Sensor turns Off so does the Relay. The Open/Close module does not remain On for the entire trip on the stairs so the Relay will open and the stair lights go out while a person is still using the steps.
jerlands Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 The "Relay follows input" option does cause the Relay to turn On when the Sensor turns On. Unfortunately that means when the Sensor turns Off so does the Relay. The Open/Close module does not remain On for the entire trip on the stairs so the Relay will open and the stair lights go out while a person is still using the steps. will the "momentary hold time" remain in effect? Jon...
LeeG Posted September 20, 2015 Posted September 20, 2015 If the I/O Linc Sensor remains On longer than the Momentary hold time the I/O Linc will turn Off the Relay when hold time expires. However, if the Sensor turns Off before hold time expires the "Relay follows input" will turn the Relay Off when the Sensor turns Off. I think another set of devices may work better. Perhaps the Micro On/Off module which has a Latching mode would not turn Off when the Open/Close module changed states (operate in 2 node mode). The Micro Module turning Off would then be under control of an ISY Program where Wait times could be refreshed and how quickly the ISY Program responded would not be a factor.
larryllix Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 Have one wired up here at my desk now If the I/O Linc Sensor remains On longer than the Momentary hold time the I/O Linc will turn Off the Relay when hold time expires. However, if the Sensor turns Off before hold time expires the "Relay follows input" will turn the Relay Off when the Sensor turns Off. I think another set of devices may work better. Perhaps the Micro On/Off module which has a Latching mode would not turn Off when the Open/Close module changed states (operate in 2 node mode). The Micro Module turning Off would then be under control of an ISY Program where Wait times could be refreshed and how quickly the ISY Program responded would not be a factor. I have an IOLinc wired up at my desk now. These things have some weird modes. In short the I/O Linc isn't going to work as the timer inside cannot be retriggered and this appears to be key factor for this scheme. I tried several things to fool the timer by ISY triggering the output while it is activated by the sensor follow input option. Not happening. When the sensing input changes back to the quiescent state the output turns off again. A possibility is the contact follows sensing and trigger reverse. Now the timer (monostable) activates and keeps thecontact clsed the whole time of the timer setting. Two problems. This would be at the release of the sensing, when the foot goes away = delay, and if activated again the output turns off again. A second person or foot would cancel the lights On A positive the timer starts again after the blink necessary to retrigger. Have to agree, not going to work. A direct link scene with a motion sensor could do this. I believe the I/O Linc has to stay for ease of controlling the 12v lighting.
jerlands Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 If the I/O Linc Sensor remains On longer than the Momentary hold time the I/O Linc will turn Off the Relay when hold time expires. However, if the Sensor turns Off before hold time expires the "Relay follows input" will turn the Relay Off when the Sensor turns Off. I think another set of devices may work better. Perhaps the Micro On/Off module which has a Latching mode would not turn Off when the Open/Close module changed states (operate in 2 node mode). The Micro Module turning Off would then be under control of an ISY Program where Wait times could be refreshed and how quickly the ISY Program responded would not be a factor. i think then I'd use the IOLinc's sensor as a trigger in a program and save the Micro for something else.. problem is the person (or animal) would likely be halfway up the stairs before the light turns on Jon...
jerlands Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 i think then I'd use the IOLinc's sensor as a trigger in a program and save the Micro for something else.. problem is the person (or animal) would likely be halfway up the stairs before the light turns on Jon... That's not true.. I have motion sensors that trigger programs that respond almost instantaneously... Jon...
larryllix Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 That's not true.. I have motion sensors that trigger programs that respond almost instantaneously... Jon... Yeah but which one of you is correct? I attempted to create a scene with the input and output of the I/O Linc but something doesn't allow it. Funny ISY thinks it has all the statuses and responds as if it works with On/On for In/Out but it isn't happenning. Next I went to a standard light program with time off and yes, it is way too slow. It seemed the I/O Linc is slower than other controllers. Maybe only a visual effect as I can see exactly when I short the wires to cause an input. contact closure. I/O Linc is not going to work for both input and output with a decent speed. Input needs to be something different (MS or On/Of as was) with a direct linked scene and ISY time off, or output needs to be something different with a directlinked scene between devices.
jerlands Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 Yeah but which one of you is correct? Unfortunately... he is I attempted to create a scene with the input and output of the I/O Linc but something doesn't allow it. Funny ISY thinks it has all the statuses and responds as if it works with On/On for In/Out but it isn't happenning. I'm confused... ISY won't allow creating a scene with both the sensor and relay in it? I/O Linc is not going to work for both input and output with a decent speed. Input needs to be something different (MS or On/Of as was) with a direct linked scene and ISY time off, or output needs to be something different with a directlinked scene between devices. Do you have a MS handy to test with the relay? Jon
larryllix Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 ... I'm confused... ISY won't allow creating a scene with both the sensor and relay in it? Do you have a MS handy to test with the relay? Jon Yes, but too late tonight to get one down for linking. The I/OLinc output dropped into the scene no problem but the sensor wouldn't. I assume this is because it has internal linking, same as any other module. Perhaps duplexing it was an afterthought?
jerlands Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 The I/OLinc output dropped into the scene no problem but the sensor wouldn't. I assume this is because it has internal linking, same as any other module. Perhaps duplexing it was an afterthought? Did you have "relay follows input" checked when you tried? Jon...
larryllix Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 Did you have "relay follows input" checked when you tried? Jon... No. However I have tried linking two I/OLincs into a scene successfully. I used my doorbell pushbutton detector as an controller and my BuzzLinc as a responder and tested just fine. The problem, as mentioned by LeeG is that the responder cannot be an extended time and the contact opens as soon as the PB is released. The scene is also not retriggerable to extend the time on as long as triggers keep happening. While scenes are fast with direct links between devices, control and logic is lost. No timing can be created and this is why most of us disable the Off signal from MS units, so that ISY can control the time off time.
jerlands Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 It seems both the sensor and relay can be added to the same scene. I'm thinking both "momentary c" and "relay follows input" need be deselected. The problem, as mentioned by LeeG is that the responder cannot be an extended time and the contact opens as soon as the PB is released. The scene is also not retriggerable to extend the time on as long as triggers keep happening. Yes, same would be true for sensor in scene with relay.. a MS would work but the beam sensor would need to be a trigger for a program. Jon...
larryllix Posted September 21, 2015 Posted September 21, 2015 It seems both the sensor and relay can be added to the same scene. I'm thinking both "momentary c" and "relay follows input" need be deselected. Yes, same would be true for sensor in scene with relay.. a MS would work but the beam sensor would need to be a trigger for a program. Jon... MS units work fine in scenes with lighting modules. As above, the Off has to be disabled from the MS then ISY can control that. Response is immediate. There is a way to control dimming also on a preset the scene basis.
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