WolfgangStiller Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 About two weeks ago I finally got a chance to start setting up my ISY-994i IR/Pro Insteon setup. (This was purchased about three years ago so I am out of warrantee.) I wanted to start incrementally, so my goal was to get two of the Insteon LED lights controlled via a schedule on by the ISY. It took forever to get them to link. I put both bulbs right next to the 2413s PLM and after asking both the ISY and PLM to link it took after a few hours. The setup then worked for a few hours (the programming feature work very nicely). Since then I have had both lamps become unresponsive repeatedly and I did trouble-shooting as a communications issue changing outlets and locations for the lights and PLM. To aid this I bought two range extenders and a mini remote. Still no improvement. Here are my significant findings: In the ISY admin console, I notice that when the PLM can't communicate with the lights (I can have a light in same outlet as the 2413s PLM and a range extender right next to it), if I ask the ISY to show the PLM links, and I click start in the dialog, no links are shown (when things are working the start button will show the correct links). I can try loading the saved links for the PLM from the xml file and it will show those links but the PLM will still not be able to turn on or off the lights. One further clue is I can use the remote right next to the PLM and and the lights respond perfectly (the remote is linked to lights directly for this test) Do I have a defective PLM? These are somewhat pricey so I am hesitant to just run out and buy another one. Any other trouble-shooting I should try? Thanks in advance! -Wolfgang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stusviews Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 Help > About. What is the Firmware? What is the UI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 What is the date code and hardware version numbers on the white stickers on the back side of the 2413S PLM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 1, 2016 Author Share Posted April 1, 2016 Help > About. What is the Firmware? What is the UI? I am at work right now but it's the Java admin console and I immediately updated to the latest isy firmware. I'll report the exact numbers later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 Help > About. What is the Firmware? What is the UI? Firmware for PLM is reported as v9B Model: ISY 994i 1024 IR Platform: ISY-C-994 Version: 4.3.26 Build Timestamp: 2015-10-13-11:35:11-10-13- And Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 What is the date code and hardware version numbers on the white stickers on the back side of the 2413S PLM? 2413s V1.B 1317 and PLM firmware (according admin console) is v9B. It shows connected but if I do a Tools/Diagnostics/Show PLM links table and press "Start" on that dialog, the PLM is currently returning no links. (this morning it was briefly working and "start" was showing the correct set of links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 Firmware for PLM is reported as v9B Model: ISY 994i 1024 IR Platform: ISY-C-994 Version: 4.3.26 Build Timestamp: 2015-10-13-11:35:11-10-13- And If you open Admin Console and go to Help > About you can see ISY Firmware and UI versions. 2413s V1.B 1317 and PLM firmware (according admin console) is v9B. It shows connected but if I do a Tools/Diagnostics/Show PLM links table and press "Start" on that dialog, the PLM is currently returning no links. (this morning it was briefly working and "start" was showing the correct set of links. The PLM was manufactured 17th week of 2013 (1317.) I don't have a list of PLM's with capacitor issues but I'd bet you have one of 'em. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 My Hardware 1.B, 1408, 2413S PLM has the capacitors that are known to be an issue in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 If you open Admin Console and go to Help > About you can see ISY Firmware and UI versions. The PLM was manufactured 17th week of 2013 (1317.) I don't have a list of PLM's with capacitor issues but I'd bet you have one of 'em. Jon... Sure. Potentially all the PLMs seem to have early death due to capacitor issues (the new generation possibly does better) but this PLM has only a few days of usage on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 My Hardware 1.B, 1408, 2413S PLM has the capacitors that are known to be an issue in it. yes, I am thinking the PLM may have issues but it's not dead and is responding to the ISY and works OK at times. It may have RF issues (I could see having intermittent power line related issues such as noise or some signal sucking but if I hold a min-remote next to the PLM, the remote controls the lights perfectly but the PLM can't seem to communicate at all. You would think at least the RF signal should be getting out.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 If the PLM is on the same AC circuit as the computing equipment. They can effect the PLMs power line commands. I have mine on a FilterLinc's pass through outlet on the front. My UPS and computer equipment on the filtered outlet. Do you have any Dual Band equipment on both incoming power lines and verified with the Beacon-Communications tests they are communicating? Does the RF Communications test from the PLM reach any of your other Dual Band Modules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 yes, I am thinking the PLM may have issues but it's not dead and is responding to the ISY and works OK at times. It may have RF issues (I could see having intermittent power line related issues such as noise or some signal sucking but if I hold a min-remote next to the PLM, the remote controls the lights perfectly but the PLM can't seem to communicate at all. You would think at least the RF signal should be getting out.) You can test for comm issues by opening Event Viewer to Level 3, operate a couple devices and observe Hops Left=(x) count where x=3 or 2 is good and less is poor. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 You can test for comm issues by opening Event Viewer to Level 3, operate a couple devices and observe Hops Left=(x) count where x=3 or 2 is good and less is poor. Jon... I did that first thing. The connections are all totally failing--nothing works. The most direct issue is the PLM not returning any links to the ISY when I query it for its links. In that situation, it can't communicate with anything other than ISY (which is by cat5 cable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 I think I am on to something on this problem. I am running some more tests to confirm and see what works but the key piece to the puzzle is that the system seems to work mostly fine after dusk until just before dawn. And I have a solar power installation with inverters and power management system (an Outback unit) that run during daylight hours. Hmmmmm... I'll report back what I find. I think my PLM must still have an issue because it should still return the links and/or work in RF mode (the RF works fine otherwise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 I think I am on to something on this problem. I am running some more tests to confirm and see what works but the key piece to the puzzle is that the system seems to work mostly fine after dusk until just before dawn. And I have a solar power installation with inverters and power management system (an Outback unit) that run during daylight hours. Hmmmmm... I'll report back what I find. I think my PLM must still have an issue because it should still return the links and/or work in RF mode (the RF works fine otherwise). My understanding is the inverter needs to be pure sine wave for Insteon. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 My understanding is the inverter needs to be pure sine wave for Insteon. Jon... This is $3.5K dollar inverter and produces higher quality power than the utility in terms of wave form and noise. Low quality power from the inverter is not the issue. OTOH, it could be absorbing some of the powerline signals but that's not core problem due to two unexplained problems: 1) The fact that a PLM can't talk to a 2672-222 in same outlet inches away. The RF link should at least be working. 2) The PLM returns nothing (during the failure periods) when I query it for links. The missing PLM inks issue has me the most puzzled since I don't see powerline or RF issues having anything to do with that. All we have is the cable running from the PLM to the ISY. -Wolfgang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 Using a long cat 5e cable, I moved the PLM and ISY to a location much further from the solar and inverter hardware. This seems (I am not totally sure since I was out a lot yesterday) to have solved the missing PLM links issue. The PLM now seems to be returning the links to the ISY when I send out a query. The device communication issue still looks like the PLM is not sending any RF. Should I just break down and get a new PLM? I am playing with moving the range extenders and and PLM to see if I can eliminate the com failures. During problem periods, when I look at the log I see the transmit from the PLM but just no downstream response (not even a NAK) from the devices, if I try to send any device signal (e.g, on, off, query). -Wolfgang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 Darn! The situation seemingly improved but now the PLM will not respond to a query from the isy for links and can't communicate with any of the lights. Interestingly, it does see remote (RF) switch changes. I am puzzled by what is going wrong here. It looks like the RF is going in but no RF is going out and the PLM can't communicate over the powerline. Edit: it has failed like this twice for about 30 minutes and then resumed working with no change from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 FWIW, in the current failure, I have a program set to try to turn on one of my lights via mini remote key press (3e.ce.e8) and send an "on" to 21.f4.2b (2672 LED light). This was working fine a few minutes ago and now there is no response from the lamp. This isy is seeing the remote key just fine. Here is the log: Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3E.CE.E8 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [std-Group ] 3E.CE.E8-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3E CE E8 1] [DOF] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [ 3E CE E8 1] DOF 0 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [D2D EVENT ] Event [3E CE E8 1] [sT] [0] uom=0 prec=-1 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [ 3E CE E8 1] ST 0 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:41 PM : [D2D-CMP 0003] STS [3E CE E8 1] ST op=1 Event(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) is Condition(val=0 uom=0 prec=-1) --> true Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3E.CE.E8 00.00.01 CB 13 00 LTOFFRR(00) Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [std-Group ] 3E.CE.E8-->Group=1, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3E.CE.E8 22.FE.D6 41 13 01 LTOFFRR(01) Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [std-Cleanup ] 3E.CE.E8-->ISY/PLM Group=1, Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-DUP ] Previous message ignored. Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3E.CE.E8 13.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [std-Group ] 3E.CE.E8-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-SRX ] 02 50 3E.CE.E8 13.01.01 CB 06 00 (00) Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [std-Group ] 3E.CE.E8-->13.01.01, Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2 Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:42 PM : [iNST-INFO ] Previous message ignored. Sun 04/03/2016 01:20:43 PM : [iNST-TX-I1 ] 02 62 21 F4 2B 0F 11 00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian H Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 Does you Outback system use micro inverter in each panel and then fee a central interface? Some send performance data back to the main control interface over the power feed. Insteon power line signal frequency is not that far from the X10 one. I have seen reports of them messing up X10. So it could be possible your Outback system is causing issues. Finding any technical data from Outback is not possible. They seem to keep the data for authorized dealers only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 Does you Outback system use micro inverter in each panel and then fee a central interface? Some send performance data back to the main control interface over the power feed. Insteon power line signal frequency is not that far from the X10 one. I have seen reports of them messing up X10. So it could be possible your Outback system is causing issues. Finding any technical data from Outback is not possible. They seem to keep the data for authorized dealers only. I know what you are talking about but I am puzzled about the links issue between the PLM and the isy. our solar array feeds about 120v DC (at typical sun) into a power controller which charges a large set of AGM batteries and/or feeds the inverters at its discretion. No panel based micro-inverters. If you are interested, I do see docs for download their web site and specifically for our FlexPower setup here: http://www.outbackpower.com/catalogs-collaterals/item/flexpower-two-2 and they have a support forum at http://www.outbackpower.com/forum/ The Outback systems seems to at least be contributing to the issue but doesn't explain some parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 You can test RF communications with 4 tap Beacon from PLM (tap set button on PLM 4 times and it starts blinking and all RF devices respond with green or red indicating leg in relation to PLM.) That said... I believe if noise is strong enough on powerline it will interfere with RF communications. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwester Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 ...That said... I believe if noise is strong enough on powerline it will interfere with RF communications... Yep, I've observed this phenomenon. Really, awfully, terribly bad design, IMO -- short of a deliberate Denial-of-Service attack, the device should be able to deal with the two communications channels independently. Some of the newer devices allow you to disable the powerline and radio independently - it might be worth getting on of the on/off plugin modules - which have that feature - and trying it. An alternative is to plug any plug-in module into a FilterLinc so that the powerline signal is filtered out before it gets to the device. Since every Insteon installation NEEDS at least one (and probably many) FilterLincs, that might be the best way to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerlands Posted April 3, 2016 Share Posted April 3, 2016 There's also the option of moving entirely to Z-Wave. I don't have any Z-Wave devices but understand ISY has good and improving control. Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfgangStiller Posted April 3, 2016 Author Share Posted April 3, 2016 You can test RF communications with 4 tap Beacon from PLM (tap set button on PLM 4 times and it starts blinking and all RF devices respond with green or red indicating leg in relation to PLM.) That said... I believe if noise is strong enough on powerline it will interfere with RF communications. Jon... Good idea. I'll try that during next failure. I ran the test while everything was working and the devices responded to the PLM RF broadcast so at least I know the RF is working at those times. (The bulbs apparently don't seem to have the capability to respond in this manner) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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