Adding Z-wave to Insteon network

[dzarn]

I have about 20 Insteon devices and an ISY-994i. Everything works great. However, I've had problems with the reliability of Insteon stuff, and despite their increasing popularity they are still ridiculously expensive. They also don't seem to be real interested in new, innovatie products. So I'm looking at Z-wave options as I refinish my basement.

 

So my questions are for anyone who has both Insteon and Z-wave, I suppose.

1 - Any problems getting them to play nicely via the ISY? I expect I'll run into the delays inherent with programs rather than scenes, since the ISY would have to translate any commands between the two, right? Anything else to be aware of? 

 

2 - What's your opinion on reliability between the 2?

 

3 - There are multiple manufacturers of Z-wave devices. For instance, I'm looking at a GE switch (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Z-Wave-600-Watt-CFL-LED-Indoor-In-Wall-Dimmer-Switch-Almond-White-Paddles/205798443). Are there any gotchas with mixing manufacturers, or is it truly an interoperable standard?

 

Thanks!

[stusviews]

Insteon has been quite innovative adding not only features to existing products, but new products as well. I'm traveling tomorrow and don't have time to  create a list, so I'll answer briefly.

 

1. There's no difficulty other than the delay you mentioned due to programs with mixing Z-Wave and Insteon. Each is fully independent of the other.

 

2. Insteon is considerably more reliable. Once you have filtered offending device and adequately bridged the opposite legs of the split, single-phase electric supply, the Insteon network remains stable. Z-Wave often requires that devices mesh with each other, using repeaters (not all repeaters are adequate) and that they're healed on occasion.

 

3. Due to patent issues, not all devices report their status, so you can't expect a program to run based on the state of the device (e.g., On or Off). Some Z-Wave device that do report status do so several seconds after the status changes. Other than that, you can mix manufacturers.

BTW, Lutron holds the patent.

 

BTW, Version 5+ is reported to support Z-Wave scenes.

[mwester]

I'll go on record as disagreeing with stusviews -- I don't agree that Insteon has been "quite innovative"; compared to the zwave devices out there (such as LED strip controllers, multi-sensors).  Portals are not innovative (regardless of one's opinion of them).  I also disagree with the characterization that "Insteon is considerably more reliable"; there's no evidence to suggest that at all, and the qualifier that follows (re filtering and bridging) is often not only more expensive than a few extra z-wave repeaters, but as I can attest, it's far more difficult to keep the level of purity in the AC signal that Insteon demands.  Add to that the "two year and dead" problem that the PLM has.  Nevertheless, I will keep my Insteon devices - along with the dozen filterlincs, the passive bridge, the power strips and odd placement of some electronics - because when they work, they do work very well, and because right now the z-wave stuff isn't ready for prime time.

 

I picked up the GE z-wave wall switch.  It works.  Compared to the feel of the normal switches and the Insteon switchlincs, you have to *pound* on the switch to get it respond.  Well, not really - just a firm push - but it is annoyingly "different".  The blue LED sucks compared to the switchlincs.  Worst, though, is that the wall switch has no scene support that's worth anything.  There's z-wave traffic when you push the button, but nothing that you can trigger on.

 

I have a bunch of Enerwave devices to install and test - they claim to support scene controlling (apparently they paid Lutron's patent fees?).  I'm hoping they have a better feel.

 

There are some other threads regarding in-wall scene controllers - apparently the GE multi-button device has so many ljmitations that its use will be very constrained (it doesn't currently work with the ISY at all).  I'm hoping for better from the Enerwave scene controller, but we'll have to see.  No matter how you slice it, though, compared to the Insteon KPL, the zwave units are just not in that same league.

 

On the other hand, my z-wave garage door opener works wonderfully -- it makes the Insteon garage door kit look like a kid's grade-school science fair project.  The Aeon multisensors are really useful little devices -- and low-cost as well.  I've found it unexpectedly useful to be able to write programs that respond differently based on (for example) how much light there is in the garage, or screen porch, and the ability to know how warm/cold it is in those spaces has also been useful.

 

The z-wave door open/close units just work.  And have never been implicated in the dreaded Insteon "All-ON" bug.

 

Did I mention that the Aeon z-wave on/off plugin modules are pretty neat?  I had one that served its time as the Xmas lights switch - an applianceLinc would have served just as well.  But in January it got moved to the basement and the steam humidifier on the HVAC system was plugged into it.  I have no need to turn that thing on or off, but it was interesting to use the on/off device's energy monitoring to get a handle on just how much humidifying the house is costing me each season... there's no Insteon device that can tell you about power consumption.

 

Hmmm.... I just realized that I didn't do a z-wave heal after I moved that device in January.  And nothing has broken.  Perhaps the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) being sown about how frequent and awful z-wave heals are is just FUD!   A z-wave heal takes 10 or 15 minutes, and I don't get off my chair.  On the other hand, when my PLM suddenly can't talk to the basement exterior lights switchlinc, it's time for me to go all over the house, searching for potential problems - for example something electronic that the kids moved from it's filterlinc-protected power strip to somewhere else in the basement.  And if that isn't it, it's time to get my Insteon test box out, tell the family that I'll be shutting off breakers and start that horrible exercise Yet Again. Or maybe I'll get lucky and wont' have to turn off every breaker in the house... perhaps just end up swapping a switchlinc that's failing (did that in the kitchen last fall, tossed out a $79 KPL because it wasn't responding reliably).  Or perhaps end up tossing an LED light bulb that illuminates just fine, because it started generating some electrical noise (did that just last week).   Z-wave heals don't cost me money, and take very little effort.  My Insteon network, by comparison, always costs me significant effort whenever it has a problem, and lately it's costing me significant money each time something won't talk.  This makes me unhappy.

 

I'm looking to z-wave for the future; it's not ready for prime-time in terms of ISY support, and scene controllers really seem to suck.  I'll be keeping my Insteon devices but will resist purchasing anything new from SmartHome.  I'm also investing heavily in terms of effort into the new "node server" functionality; I think that's the key to avoiding vendor lock-in and ensuring the future-proofing of my HA.

[Brian H]

As far as I have seen. They don't even totally support some of their modules being sold for months now.

I am still waiting for the Alert Modules API to be given to UDI so I can actually do something constructive with it and not have it as a toy I can trigger with a KeypadLinc in a table top case.

[dzarn]

Thanks for the insights. In terms of reliability, I meant the hardware itself rather than communications. I've had several devices conk out within about 1 month of the warranty expiring. Interesting about the build quality though.

 

 

Like mwester, I've had my share of turning off breakers to track down the stupid $3 3-way outlet splitter that managed to kill ALL Insteon communications. Turns out the cheap indicator light was an Insteon vacuum. 

 

 

What is the "node server" function you're referring to?

 

Anyone else who has tried Z-wave, I'd love to hear your experiences.

 

 

[mikeorst]

I'll go on record as disagreeing with stusviews -- I don't agree that Insteon has been "quite innovative"; compared to the zwave devices out there (such as LED strip controllers, multi-sensors).  Portals are not innovative (regardless of one's opinion of them).  I also disagree with the characterization that "Insteon is considerably more reliable"; there's no evidence to suggest that at all, and the qualifier that follows (re filtering and bridging) is often not only more expensive than a few extra z-wave repeaters, but as I can attest, it's far more difficult to keep the level of purity in the AC signal that Insteon demands.  Add to that the "two year and dead" problem that the PLM has.  Nevertheless, I will keep my Insteon devices - along with the dozen filterlincs, the passive bridge, the power strips and odd placement of some electronics - because when they work, they do work very well, and because right now the z-wave stuff isn't ready for prime time.

 

I picked up the GE z-wave wall switch.  It works.  Compared to the feel of the normal switches and the Insteon switchlincs, you have to *pound* on the switch to get it respond.  Well, not really - just a firm push - but it is annoyingly "different".  The blue LED sucks compared to the switchlincs.  Worst, though, is that the wall switch has no scene support that's worth anything.  There's z-wave traffic when you push the button, but nothing that you can trigger on.

 

I have a bunch of Enerwave devices to install and test - they claim to support scene controlling (apparently they paid Lutron's patent fees?).  I'm hoping they have a better feel.

 

There are some other threads regarding in-wall scene controllers - apparently the GE multi-button device has so many ljmitations that its use will be very constrained (it doesn't currently work with the ISY at all).  I'm hoping for better from the Enerwave scene controller, but we'll have to see.  No matter how you slice it, though, compared to the Insteon KPL, the zwave units are just not in that same league.

 

On the other hand, my z-wave garage door opener works wonderfully -- it makes the Insteon garage door kit look like a kid's grade-school science fair project.  The Aeon multisensors are really useful little devices -- and low-cost as well.  I've found it unexpectedly useful to be able to write programs that respond differently based on (for example) how much light there is in the garage, or screen porch, and the ability to know how warm/cold it is in those spaces has also been useful.

 

The z-wave door open/close units just work.  And have never been implicated in the dreaded Insteon "All-ON" bug.

 

Did I mention that the Aeon z-wave on/off plugin modules are pretty neat?  I had one that served its time as the Xmas lights switch - an applianceLinc would have served just as well.  But in January it got moved to the basement and the steam humidifier on the HVAC system was plugged into it.  I have no need to turn that thing on or off, but it was interesting to use the on/off device's energy monitoring to get a handle on just how much humidifying the house is costing me each season... there's no Insteon device that can tell you about power consumption.

 

Hmmm.... I just realized that I didn't do a z-wave heal after I moved that device in January.  And nothing has broken.  Perhaps the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) being sown about how frequent and awful z-wave heals are is just FUD!   A z-wave heal takes 10 or 15 minutes, and I don't get off my chair.  On the other hand, when my PLM suddenly can't talk to the basement exterior lights switchlinc, it's time for me to go all over the house, searching for potential problems - for example something electronic that the kids moved from it's filterlinc-protected power strip to somewhere else in the basement.  And if that isn't it, it's time to get my Insteon test box out, tell the family that I'll be shutting off breakers and start that horrible exercise Yet Again. Or maybe I'll get lucky and wont' have to turn off every breaker in the house... perhaps just end up swapping a switchlinc that's failing (did that in the kitchen last fall, tossed out a $79 KPL because it wasn't responding reliably).  Or perhaps end up tossing an LED light bulb that illuminates just fine, because it started generating some electrical noise (did that just last week).   Z-wave heals don't cost me money, and take very little effort.  My Insteon network, by comparison, always costs me significant effort whenever it has a problem, and lately it's costing me significant money each time something won't talk.  This makes me unhappy.

 

I'm looking to z-wave for the future; it's not ready for prime-time in terms of ISY support, and scene controllers really seem to suck.  I'll be keeping my Insteon devices but will resist purchasing anything new from SmartHome.  I'm also investing heavily in terms of effort into the new "node server" functionality; I think that's the key to avoiding vendor lock-in and ensuring the future-proofing of my HA.

I've had the exact opposite experience between Z-Wave and Insteon in reliabilitity.  My Insteon network just works (unless I don't change a battery in one of my wireless devices).  My Z-Wave network, I constantly have problems.  I've never been able to get it to be as reliable as my Insteon network.  I've have multiple door looks, aeon repeaters, Aeon sirens and Garage Door Opener, and just can't get the network to heal and be reliable.  My insteon network, I have a bunch of old powerline only devices and some dual band devices and a bunch of RF only device, and they all just work.

 

I've wondered if I put all my z-wave devices on a Smartthings Controller would I have any better luck.  I really don't know where the reliability issues come from.  Maybe I need to start over with Z-wave and add devices back from the closest devices to the furthest devices (and re-heal) each time.  My problem is this takes lots of time, back and forth, etc... and never found a way to make it just work.

[stusviews]

Insteon Labs has introduced:

 

2-Wire Dimmer

Alert Module

Dimmer Outlet

Dual On/Off outlet

Outdoor Outlet

Hidden Door Sensor

Energy Display

FanLinc

Low cost smartphone and Echo enabled controller (Hub 2)

Apple enable controller (Hub Pro)

Leak Sensor

Insteon bulbs

Mini Remotes that can be wall mounted

Customizable buttons and paddles

Low voltage input/output controller

Dual color LEDs to aid in trouble-shooting

 

I probably missed some innovations. Insteon is also dual-mesh, both power line and RF. No othe HA system offers that. Power line difficulties can be corrected, RF usually cannot.

 

No doubt one can nit pick about the cost of custom etched buttons or the limited capability of the Hub, but that's not the comparison--it's Insteon vs. Z-Wave.

[oberkc]

Thanks for the insights. In terms of reliability, I meant the hardware itself rather than communications. I've had several devices conk out within about 1 month of the warranty expiring. Interesting about the build quality though.

 

 

Like mwester, I've had my share of turning off breakers to track down the stupid $3 3-way outlet splitter that managed to kill ALL Insteon communications. Turns out the cheap indicator light was an Insteon vacuum. 

 

 

What is the "node server" function you're referring to?

 

Anyone else who has tried Z-wave, I'd love to hear your experiences.

  I have more insteon than z-wave, and my z-wave devices are comparatively new.  Over 8 years (or so) and dozens of insteon devices, I have had a couple of failures, including one PLM.  I have had no z-wave failures out of about half dozen devices in less than two years.  My perception thus far is that they are pretty comparable.

[Brian H]

Stu,

Maybe if we get real lucky. Their innovated Alert Module may get ISY support. If they ever find the time to properly support it and not try to put out more new devices before the released ones are fully supported!

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello everyone,

 

Although we didn't get their API docs, we did get a dump file of communications from SmartHome last week. We are sifting through them, and if we figure it out, we should have it included in 5.0.x.

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[Brian H]

Thanks for the update.

Does not sound like it will be an easy decode. When all that was really needed was the valid API information.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi Brian,

 

Unfortunately you are correct. This said, we are kind of used to it!

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[lilyoyo1]

I use both Insteon and Zwave. In my first home it was all Insteon from 7 years ago and I had 2 failures.

 

My most recent home is a combination of Insteon and Zwave and it's been 3 years. I have had 1 failure of Insteon (later realized it was my mistake) and 1 Zwave failure. From my experience with knowing others feelings on the issue, there are those with good and bad experiences with both protocols. There are many variables involved.

 

I have taken the time to do little things that can affect device life and cause issues such as the use of a whole house surge protector as well as filters on things that can cause problems. The way I see it, switches are electronic and if I feel the need to protect my new TV with a protector why wouldn't I do the same for my light switches.

 

There is no perfect protocol. For those starting out with newer generation Zwave devices, their experience will be much different than with. Older devices that was full of issues that people describe on a regular basis. The same with Insteon. Older devices will have more issues than newer devices.

 

For both protocols I feel that if they are setup properly with enough devices for a full network, you can't go wrong with either one. There are features that zwave has but Insteon does not have and vice versus. The great thing about the ISY is that it allows you to have the best of both worlds.

 

In regards to pricing, that is an illusion. Yes there are cheaper Zwave devices but there are many more that are equal in cost to being much more expensive. In regards to support and capabilities, the Zwave devices that closely match Insteon are priced in the same ballpark or much more expensive.

[Teken]

I have to add that Smartlabs has been the only hardware maker as far as I am aware to ever release products based on user feed back.

 

The famous Insteon *Wish List* has been going on for more than seven years. Whether or not they still look and triage future products on the ideas offered by the end user who knows.

 

What I do know is, Insteon has offered some of the best value in their core products which has the best look and feel. When you compare the look and feel of other Z-Wave products some of them actually look like they came from the dollar store.

 

As others have mentioned reliability in certain products (2413S PLM) have been an on going issue. I've never been a huge fan of being locked into a single source vendor but until something else surpasses what Insteon can do and offer.

 

My Home Automation will remain with Insteon and replace what ever on a staged approach. HA has come a long way since the X-10 days and hope very much that it continues to grow and be more reliable for the main stream users in terms of service life. As I stated repeatedly Smartlabs continues to miss the boat in the energy management / awareness section.

 

The Z-Wave camp from various vendors have led the charge in this area even if they are not 100% accurate.

 

I suspect Q2 / Q3 of this year all of us will start to see new products from Smartlabs. Hope very much its products that lead the market in energy management and awareness along with higher RF / Power Line output.

 

Speaking of which Smartlabs has most recently updated the type and position of the antenna for the KPL!

 

After years of complaining they should move the antenna just behind the front plastic. They have some what met us half way and placed it at the top rear using a coiled antenna array.

 

Its not ideal by any means but it certainly beats that piece of crap solid copper wire stuck at the rear of the frame!