3 way switch issuesIU'

[musicmatters]

I'm trying for the life of me to get this 3 way situation working.  Here's what I got:

 

- 2 locations controlling 1 light, and I'm trying to install a Dimmer in Location 1 and a 8 button in location 2.

 

- In location 2 I have a 3 conductor (R,B,W) cable coming in and that is it.  I can't get this 8 button to have any power where I see the LED indicator lights turn on.  I have tested for the hot leg and attached that to Line.  I attached the white wires together, and I have experimented with attaching and not attaching the Red's and there is no difference. 

 

- In location 1, I have the same 3 conductor wire (I'm assuming) and a 2 conductor wire (Black White).  Here I can get the dimmer indicator lights to turn on, but no control of the fixture.  I found the hot leg and attached that to Line, I attached the white wire to the big bundle, and here I experimented with the Red's attached and not attached and its the same result.

 

Can someone help walk me through where i am wrong?  I'm assuming it's 1 little thing that I am missing.

Edited November 19, 2017 by musicmatters

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi musicmatters:

 

1. http://wiki.universal-devices.com/index.php?title=ISY-99i/ISY-26_INSTEON:How-To_Guide#Scenes

2.

(Video)

 

With kind regards,

Michel

[stusviews]

In a 3-way configuration, there's at least one white wire that's not a neutral. Line can be any of black, red or white. The same is true of the load wire. If the wiring is as you describe, than there is no neutral in either box. At the box with only three wires, one is the load or line which can be any color. The other two wires are travelers.

 

The same is true of the three wire cable at the other end which has a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable. The 2-wire cable is from the light. It's most likely that white is line and black is load. Can you confirm that one switch box has only a 3-wire cable and the other switch box has only a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable? You can disregard ground wires, if any.

 

If so, then you'll need a Micro Module to create the virtual 3-way configuration. That's because, regardless of the wire colors, there is no neutral in either switch box.

[asbril]

In a 3-way configuration, there's at least one white wire that's not a neutral. Line can be any of black, red or white. The same is true of the load wire. If the wiring is as you describe, than there is no neutral in either box. At the box with only three wires, one is the load or line which can be any color. The other two wires are travelers.

 

The same is true of the three wire cable at the other end which has a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable. The 2-wire cable is from the light. It's most likely that white is line and black is load. Can you confirm that one switch box has only a 3-wire cable and the other switch box has only a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable? You can disregard ground wires, if any.

 

If so, then you'll need a Micro Module to create the virtual 3-way configuration. That's because, regardless of the wire colors, there is no neutral in either switch box.

I know that Stu is far more knowledgable than I am, but just to make sure.....  with ZWave 3-way you only need 1 traveller wire and you can use the second traveller to bring neutral to your switches.

[dbuss]

In a 3-way configuration, there's at least one white wire that's not a neutral. Line can be any of black, red or white. The same is true of the load wire. If the wiring is as you describe, than there is no neutral in either box. At the box with only three wires, one is the load or line which can be any color. The other two wires are travelers.

 

The same is true of the three wire cable at the other end which has a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable. The 2-wire cable is from the light. It's most likely that white is line and black is load. Can you confirm that one switch box has only a 3-wire cable and the other switch box has only a 3-wire cable and a 2-wire cable? You can disregard ground wires, if any.

 

If so, then you'll need a Micro Module to create the virtual 3-way configuration. That's because, regardless of the wire colors, there is no neutral in either switch box.

Stu, when he says "I attached the white wire to the big bundle". Would that be the neutral bundle?

[stusviews]

Relying on the original description, the "big bundle" is most likely the white wire from the fixture (line) connected to the white wire on the 3-wire cable. That would make the white wire at the switch box with only one 3-wire cable the line and black and red travelers. At the switch box with one 3-wire cable and one 2-wire cable, the two white wires are line (one from the fixture and one to the other switch), black and red from the 3-wire cable are travelers and black from the 2-wire cable

(from the fixture) is load.

 

Z-Wave devices require a neutral. From the description of the wiring, if correct, there is no neutral wire in either switch box.

[ScottAvery]

musicmatters, as dbuss suggests, please clarify what you mean by "big bundle".  Are there additional wires in the boxes not connected to your light circuit?

 

If there are no other wires in these boxes at all then Stu's answer is correct.  You can confirm it by looking under the light fixture where you will likely find two 2-conductor wires (or more if they made junctions there) and the power source for this circuit is starting at the fixture.

 

An option to correct it is to add this light to a different circuit by connecting power to one of the switch boxes from a nearby outlet, if you are so lucky to have one within a couple of feet, on either side of the wall.  I have had to knock out boxes and replace with an Old Work box to get access to power in the wall.  What you can't do is just try to steal neutral from another circuit as that would risk overpowering the neutral and burning it out - switch the circuit entirely.  If you do, you would cap off the original power source in the fixture.

 

Also, stop connecting stuff to load until you know what is on those wires.  Draw yourself a picture.  The load is only going to connect to one of the 2-conductor wires in the box with a 2 and 3, but you probably want to see what is behind the fixture to know which one.  edit:  If Stu's assumption is correct on the whites being line from fixture, then load would be the black, as he stated.

Edited November 21, 2017 by ScottAvery

[ScottAvery]

I know that Stu is far more knowledgable than I am, but just to make sure.....  with ZWave 3-way you only need 1 traveller wire and you can use the second traveller to bring neutral to your switches.

 

 

Z-Wave devices require a neutral. From the description of the wiring, if correct, there is no neutral wire in either switch box.

 

I don't think Stu was trying to counter asbril's point, but to clarify, with Zwave there are dedicated add-on 3-Way switches (only $20) that cannot handle a load.  They just send a signal to the main switch which does carry the load, so you could in such an instance repurpose a traveler to neutral.  Smarthome used to sell such a switch in their Insteon 2-wire kits.  Wish they would bring them back!

 

two points though:

 

1) The OP, however, appears to be using Insteon, and Insteon doesn't require any travelers at all for the second switch - just line and neutral.

2) There still doesn't appear to be a neutral at the boxes due to the circuit design starting at the fixture.

[stusviews]

I don't think Stu was trying to counter asbril's point, but to clarify, with Zwave there are dedicated add-on 3-Way switches (only $20) that cannot handle a load.  They just send a signal to the main switch which does carry the load, so you could in such an instance repurpose a traveler to neutral.

 

The point is a neutral is required, even if it has to be supplied by repurposing a wire.