New user, couple early questions

[watson524]

Hi there,

 

I just got an ISY and manually walked around resetting my insteon switches before setting them up on the ISY. Came across two issues. I couldn't get 2 switches to link up getting an error "cannot determine device link table address" and then have 2 3 way switches that don't seem to be working (not turning light off/on but indicator on switch is responding)

 

In reading the wiki and other places, to address the 2 switches not getting entered (non 3 ways), I tried doing link management -> start linking and also did link management -> new insteon device and no love.

 

on the 3 way issues, not sure if the wiki part I read about creating a 3 way scene applies? The switches that don't work through the controller also no longer work locally (if that makes any sense).... i.e. I can't just go flip the switch manually anymore.

 

Once I get this figured out, I'm going to see what I can do about getting the x10 window candles up and running

 

thanks in advance!

 

 

[paulbates]

Is your ISY / PLM in a different location (you mentioned resetting) than your previous controller? It might be that the 2 switches are out of range, especially if they're not dual band

 

Paul

[watson524]

Nope, same place, down in the basement. These switches that won't link up are closer in range than several others that work just fine

[paulbates]

It sounds like you factory reset them too?

 

For the 3 way, you want to use the link management menu to create a scene. Use the mouse to click and drag the switches into the scene. Click the box to make them controllers, that should make the 3 way work

[watson524]

I did, yep

 

Dumb question on the 3 way.... why would setting them up in the ISY kill local control of them?

[paulbates]

When you factory reset the switches, that cleared any previous links that created virtual circuits between the insteon switches.

 

Also, when the ISY adds switches, it clears out any locally established links. The ISY becomes the "system of record" for insteon links.  No links created at the switches manually are recognized or managed by the ISY. 

 

Its much easier to do (and change) with the mouse on the ISY and not have to manually walk around

 

Paul

[stusviews]

Although walking around is tedious, it's a really good method if you suspect that there are communication problems. Delete the errant devices. Select the rotating arrows icon, then press the set button on the device until the device goes into linking mode. If the device doesn't show up, then there's definitely a problem. But if it does appear, then that's no guaranty of good communication. Post any messages.

[Goose66]

I did, yep

 

Dumb question on the 3 way.... why would setting them up in the ISY kill local control of them?

 

Yes. In order to "calculate" changes to the link tables for updates of switches and other devices, the ISY keeps all the links internally and rewrites the link table when you make changes in the ISY Admin console. You can see it rewriting the link table entries and the "high water mark" (EOT symbol) when you make a change in the console. If you link two Insteon devices together outside of the ISY, there's a good chance that the next time you make changes to one of the devices in the ISY Admin console the external links will be overwritten or corrupted.

[watson524]

I guess I'm just surprised because I thought the switches would work on their own locally just like a dumb switch even if I wasn't using hub/ISY/etc to control them

[Goose66]

I guess I'm just surprised because I thought the switches would work on their own locally just like a dumb switch even if I wasn't using hub/ISY/etc to control them

 

The switches should still work the way they always have. The switch connected directly to the load should operate the load regardless of any scene configuration. The remote switches in the 3-way will need the scenes configured (either manually through Insteon linking or via the ISY Admin Console) to allow the 3-way circuit to operate correctly. Once the 3-way scenes are configured, the Insteon Scenes will operate even when the ISY is offline.

 

What you can't do is configure switches through manual linking and THEN through the ISY Admin console, because the ISY Admin console doesn't read the current link table in the switches before writing changes - it goes by what it has in its internal database to determine what changes need to be written. If you make changes to a scene in the ISY Admin console, those changes may corrupt the entries in associated device's link table if manual changes were made since the ISY's internal database was updated.

[paulbates]

I guess I'm just surprised because I thought the switches would work on their own locally just like a dumb switch even if I wasn't using hub/ISY/etc to control them

 

Ok that's different. Yes, they should work locally as switches. The only caveat being is if their "on levels" somehow got set to zero. If you factory reset the switches again, local control should work. If not, something else is wrong and not a function of the ISY

 

Paul

[watson524]

Ok that's different. Yes, they should work locally as switches. The only caveat being is if their "on levels" somehow got set to zero. If you factory reset the switches again, local control should work. If not, something else is wrong and not a function of the ISY

 

Paul

 

If they aren't dimmers, would they have an on level? So I have two scenarios, one where the 3 way circuit has a toggle and a dimmer. Dimmer is working fine, toggle does nothing. I reset it again and it clicks at the switch itself and the led on the switch functions but the light isn't doing anything.

 

Other scenario is 2 toggle switches in a 3 way, one controls the light, one does nothing. I didn't do a full reset on that scenario yet. 

 

I did get one of the single switch ones working that wouldn't so that's progress LOL! 

[paulbates]

First scenario: In an Insteon 3 way set up, only one of the switches actually controls the load connected to the red wire.  The other switches have to be linked to it to cause it to physically turn the light on. Links created either manually or via the ISY. If the switches were reset, then the links that managed that virtual circuit are lost. If these are the switches that you got to install in your ISY, follow the steps in post #4. It goes fairly quickly

 

Second scenario, the behavior you describe suggests something happened to the links between the switches.  If these switches are getting the "can't install" error, try to get that resolved, its a prerequisite to linking. Submit a ticket if you've not been able to link them. Refer to this post in the ticket.

 

Paul

 

If they aren't dimmers, would they have an on level? So I have two scenarios, one where the 3 way circuit has a toggle and a dimmer. Dimmer is working fine, toggle does nothing. I reset it again and it clicks at the switch itself and the led on the switch functions but the light isn't doing anything.

 

Other scenario is 2 toggle switches in a 3 way, one controls the light, one does nothing. I didn't do a full reset on that scenario yet. 

 

I did get one of the single switch ones working that wouldn't so that's progress LOL! 

 

 

Paul

[watson524]

It sounds like you factory reset them too?

 

For the 3 way, you want to use the link management menu to create a scene. Use the mouse to click and drag the switches into the scene. Click the box to make them controllers, that should make the 3 way work

Ok I feel like I'm missing something. I went and add both chandelier switches (dimmer, which works locally with no issues, and non dimmer which is the toggle switch that doesn't work locally).

 

I added them both as controllers per the post above. In the scene, when I turn on the dimmer locally, I see both switches show the state as on, tho the led on the toggle doesn't go off. Same when I turn the dimmer off. If I turn the dimmer on with the interface, I see the status of the toggle show on but still can't control the toggle locally.

 

These have been wired in for a few years with no issues on local usage so I think I'm just being dense (chalk it up to newbie) here maybe?

[paulbates]

This is a common thing with Insteon, so its not you

 

In a traditional, manual 3 way, there are "traveler" wires that are used to make the 3 way work. Insteon switches do support 3 way, but not with a traveler wire. 

 

Insteon 3 way

Insteon switch1           ---> red line -> wire to power the light

Insteon switch 2          ---> red line capped -> no connection to the light

Insteon switch 'N"        ---> red line capped -> no connection to the light

 

Scene- all switches in the "n" way... locally turning one on/off turns the others on/off. When the wired one is turned on, the lights turn on

 

One additional complication: When you first set it up, you used the directions from the box that came with the switch to manually link the switches. Those links need to be removed, and added back with the ISY

 

 

I added them both as controllers per the post above. In the scene, when I turn on the dimmer locally, I see both switches show the state as on, tho the led on the toggle doesn't go off. Same when I turn the dimmer off. If I turn the dimmer on with the interface, I see the status of the toggle show on but still can't control the toggle locally.

 

 

So this is different. When you turn a switch on individually from the ISY, it does not activate the scene.. just the individual switch. If you want to control the lights and switches together from the ISY, you need to turn the scene on and off. What you describe is working as designed.

 

Does that help? Not sure if I understood / addressed "still can't control the toggle locally". Let's start with the above explanation first:  Multiple switch interactions are virtual circuits.... virtual circuits only work together when the scene is controlled, not the individual switches

 

Paul

 

[Goose66]

If they were working just fine originally, I don't think it is a problem with the wiring. One switch will control the load (call that the "main" switch) and one switch does not (call that the "remote" switch). Let's start with the basics:

 

1. Does operating the main switch manually control the chandelier?

2. If you turn the switch on and off in the ISY Admin Console (the device, not the scene), does it control the chandelier? 

3. If you turn the remote switch on and off in the ISY Admin Console, does the LED on the side of the remote switch react appropriately?

4. Can you post a screenshot of the scene setup for the 3-way circuit here for us to take a look?

[watson524]

If they were working just fine originally, I don't think it is a problem with the wiring. One switch will control the load (call that the "main" switch) and one switch does not (call that the "remote" switch). Let's start with the basics:

 

1. Does operating the main switch manually control the chandelier?

2. If you turn the switch on and off in the ISY Admin Console (the device, not the scene), does it control the chandelier? 

3. If you turn the remote switch on and off in the ISY Admin Console, does the LED on the side of the remote switch react appropriately?

4. Can you post a screenshot of the scene setup for the 3-way circuit here for us to take a look?

 

 

Stu helped me wire these up years ago so I'm confident wiring is correct Focusing on the first set with the dimmer and normal toggle link.... the toggle switch has its red wire capped so we'll call that the remote one and the dimmer the main. To answer your questions:

1.) Yes, when I operate the dimmer manually it controls the chandelier as expected

2.) Yes, when I use the admin console to control the dimmer switch, it controls the chandelier as expected

3.) Yes, when I use the admin console to control the toggle switch, it clicks and the LED on the switch reacts as expected (tho has no impact on the status of the chandelier fixture)

4.) Here is a link to the scene screen shot as well as what I now see in the individual switches (which may be the issue?)

[Goose66]

That all looks right. So you are saying if you turn the scene "Chandelier" On from the Admin Console, the chandelier comes on but the remote switch (toggle switch) doesn't come on? How about when you operate the remote switch (toggle switch) manually, does the chandelier come on then?

[watson524]

That all looks right. So you are saying if you turn the scene "Chandelier" On from the Admin Console, the chandelier comes on but the remote switch (toggle switch) doesn't come on? How about when you operate the remote switch (toggle switch) manually, does the chandelier come on then?

 

If I operate the Chandelier scene and turn it on from the admin console, the fixture comes on but the toggle switch LED doesn't go out and no click is heard at the switch. If I operate the toggle switch manually, the LED status on the switch changes as expected but it has no impact on the fixture itself. If I operate the toggle switch in the admin console, it clicks at the switch and the LED status indicator changes but it has no impact on the fixture.

[Goose66]

If you operate the toggle switch (Chandelier Switch Non Dimmer) directly from the Admin Console, I wouldn't expect the chandelier or the Chandelier Dimmer switch to respond, so that's normal.

 

As to the other scenarios, try right-mouse clicking on the Chandelier Switch Non Dimmer device in the Admin Console and selecting "Restore Device." You can try it for the Chandelier Dimmer device as well. 

[stusviews]

If you manually control the primary switch (wired to the load), then the chandelier should turn on. It does. If you control the primary switch from the Admin Console, then the chandelier should turn on. It does.

 

If you manually control the secondary switch (load wire capped), then the chandelier should turn on. It does not. If you control the secondary switch from the Admin Console, the switch should turn on (it does), but the load should not turn on. It doesn't.

 

Is the above all correct?

 

If you control the scene from the Admin Console, then both switches and the chandelier should turn on. If that's not happening, then the most likely culprit is the scene itself. Delete the scene. Recreate the scene with both the primary and secondary switches as controllers. They should both appear in red. What's the result?

[watson524]

If you operate the toggle switch (Chandelier Switch Non Dimmer) directly from the Admin Console, I wouldn't expect the chandelier or the Chandelier Dimmer switch to respond, so that's normal.

 

As to the other scenarios, try right-mouse clicking on the Chandelier Switch Non Dimmer device in the Admin Console and selecting "Restore Device." You can try it for the Chandelier Dimmer device as well. 

That worked! I did a restore on both and now I can control the toggle locally. It brings the chandelier at full power which I expect since it's only a toggle, not a dimmer but it works. Going to try to sort out the garage scenario (two toggles, one not working locally) and will let you know. Then I just have that one pesky, non 3 way circuit toggle switch I can't get to be found by the ISY but I'll play with that one and see what's what. I almost wonder if the switch is going bad.

[watson524]

Garage 3 way switch scene works now too! Woot woot! And I have my x10 window candles programmed to come on and go off on a schedule. Just need to sort out the pesky living room switch and then see what other gadgets I can integrate into this system

[larryllix]

Garage 3 way switch scene works now too! Woot woot! And I have my x10 window candles programmed to come on and go off on a schedule. Just need to sort out the pesky living room switch and then see what other gadgets I can integrate into this system

There are ways using v5.0.10 to create schedules that are year independent. My Christmas lights, trees, and light sequencer needed no maintenance this year as they just started on schedule after I strung them and plugged in the same plug-in modules.

[watson524]

Good to know! I'm also looking for something for the garage door (an open/closed sensor) that could alert me if it's open more than X minutes. Or even when I do pull in and open it, turn on the kitchen lights so I never walk into a dark house.

 

I'd LOVE to come up with a way to alert to something (car, person, etc) coming in the driveway and maybe turn on some lights or blast a horn. Driveway is about 250' long but I have power at the end on two poles across from each other. Got broken into in broad daylight several years ago so I'm sort of paranoid.