Where to next

[smokegrub]

2 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

As a Mac user myself, I'm not sure which part part of the thread you're referring to, but I don't see anything that'll affect Mac users any differently than anyone else.  It's all good, especially if you're interested in extending your ISY's capabilities with node servers but have hesitated due to the complexities of setting them up.  Currently, there are 36 node servers in the Polyglot NodeServer Store, which means there are a lot of devices you can bring into your ISY as native residents. 

Of particular interest to you might be the Wireless Tag node server -- it makes integrating CAO Wireless Tags into your ISY so much easier than fussing around with Kumoapps and variables.

I think Michel gave us a glimpse into his thinking about the future with this:

1. Instead of discussing INSTEON vs. Z-Wave, may I humbly suggest spending more time discussing node servers (will replace both INSTEON and Z-Wave )
2. Enjoy whichever you have till one or both of them go away!

I'm getting jazzed about this new Polyglot device.  I don't need it, but I'll buy it.

 

Thanks, Bumbershoot for the detailed feedback. Frequently, the technical language used to discuss such evolving assets exceeds my knowledge level. Thus, the reason for my question. If this new asset can make integration of the Tags into my ISY relatively easy, I will buy it! I love the Tags; they are amazing tools but integrating them with the ISY definitely exceeds my skill level.

[firstone]

On 7/31/2018 at 9:30 PM, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi @lilyoyo1,

Currently yes. This said, we are also in the middle of investigating porting ISY over. We will definitely provide more accurate information with milestones and deadlines before we take your money!

With kind regards,

Michel

So if this an add-on to ISY, rather than a replacement (at least for now), what separates it from a generic Alibaba $200 box with some software pre-installed? Or is it still not ready for public announcement?

[Mustang65]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 10:57 AM, Michel Kohanim said:

@asbril,

VHS vs. Beta is not a good analogy because one was chosen as the winner. Same as DVD vs. Blueray. Windows vs. Mac, on the other hand, has continued forever! 

And, from first hand experience, I can tell you that no one on this forum is going to convince the other of which is better. So:
1. Instead of discussing INSTEON vs. Z-Wave, may I humbly suggest spending more time discussing node servers (will replace both INSTEON and Z-Wave ?)
2. Enjoy whichever you have till one or both of them go away!

With kind regards,
Michel

Since there are so many complaints regarding not supporting or coming out with new products, it may be because they see the writing on the wall.. the demise of both down the road.

[Michel Kohanim]

@firstone,

1. In the case of HomeBridge and Polyglot, if one does not mind maintaining all the drivers bugs/packages/patches/ports, absolutely nothing
2. In the case of ISY framework itself, that's a completely different story and will not run without proper hardware configuration 
3. We really do not have the resources to handle support for things we have not tested, retested, burnt in, and developed for. This comes with UDI warranty and support. The other does not

With kind regards,
Michel

 

 

[Autonow]

This has been an interesting discussion. I want to be more specific as to the problems I face and what I am thinking. 

With regards to Insteon in general and the ISY. The PLM seems to be a weak link and has been prone to failures. Fortunately this is actually one device that has not failed for me. But its primary purpose is to link the ISY or other controller via the power line as its communication media. While convenient, it could be replaced with a wireless topology. The down side is lack of "basic" devices running on a wireless network and a plm failure takes your entire system down.. One problem I ran into is the current version of NEC requires a power pair in every switch box. However in older homes they simply brought the switched leg into each box for lights which creates a  problem powering any switch. The 8 button switches have been good to me and the fanlinc. I have had a basic on/off switch fail. I have had multiple "appliance modules" fail. One Key problem they are not designed to handle LED loads and last checked no plans to fix them  (they leak current)  I invested money in lock sets but insteon dropped the interface module within a year of its release. Not acceptable practice from a manufacturer.  Other bits and pieces are junk for example the 8 button remote failed the first time the battery died. The thermostat failed in a year. The above summarized the basic home automation functions. 

So what I consider BASIC HA functions are Lights, Locks and HVAC control ie (thermostat), Insteon or zwave may still be the best solution. Advanced Automation adds Power monitoring, irrigation control, freeze protection,  advance HVAC, animal feeding, and advanced Control A problem for most systems.

Now we get to add the security aspect to the system. I like the elk and it seems to be a solid system. I am looking to expand its reach into my devices. Insteon motion sensors and leak sensors are a problem because there is no "error" check to make sure they are working. I have had many missed battery low signals . The new insteon motion modules have had less than stellar reviews. So Im going to try to expand the elk wirelessly. And possibly include the locks. I also use the Intsteon IO module to control some advance alarming features. Voices messages and sirens/lights. It too has failed.  So again going back to use more physical IO from the elk. 

I have yet to discuss advanced automation such as HVAC, irrigation and power management. Clearly the ISY or most home automation systems do not know how to deal with analog signals, Temperatures, moisture, power, voltage, and weather data. I have had 3 of the insteon sprinkler modules fail at $200 each.  I can do the same with a $100 plc that will last 20 years.

So Zwave Insteon / what ever are still not where they need to be.The best feature of the ISY is the great job they did with mobilinc But it is just an HMI and there may be a DIY solution I am thinking Codesys or a DIY web based server.

 

 

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi all,

My comment was not to insinuate that INSTEON/Z-Wave are going away. My comment was, ISY/Polyglot can do a lot more things and thus, to me, the question of which is better (INSTEON vs. Z-Wave) is subjective. 

@Autonow, thanks for the feedback. I just have to correct you since this following statement is absolutely false with regards to ISY:

"I have yet to discuss advanced automation such as HVAC, irrigation and power management. Clearly the ISY or most home automation systems do not know how to deal with analog signals, Temperatures, moisture, power, voltage, and weather data"

With kind regards,
Michel

[lilyoyo1]

18 hours ago, Autonow said:

This has been an interesting discussion. I want to be more specific as to the problems I face and what I am thinking. 

With regards to Insteon in general and the ISY. The PLM seems to be a weak link and has been prone to failures. Fortunately this is actually one device that has not failed for me. But its primary purpose is to link the ISY or other controller via the power line as its communication media. While convenient, it could be replaced with a wireless topology. The down side is lack of "basic" devices running on a wireless network and a plm failure takes your entire system down.. One problem I ran into is the current version of NEC requires a power pair in every switch box. However in older homes they simply brought the switched leg into each box for lights which creates a  problem powering any switch. The 8 button switches have been good to me and the fanlinc. I have had a basic on/off switch fail. I have had multiple "appliance modules" fail. One Key problem they are not designed to handle LED loads and last checked no plans to fix them  (they leak current)  I invested money in lock sets but insteon dropped the interface module within a year of its release. Not acceptable practice from a manufacturer.  Other bits and pieces are junk for example the 8 button remote failed the first time the battery died. The thermostat failed in a year. The above summarized the basic home automation functions. 

So what I consider BASIC HA functions are Lights, Locks and HVAC control ie (thermostat), Insteon or zwave may still be the best solution. Advanced Automation adds Power monitoring, irrigation control, freeze protection,  advance HVAC, animal feeding, and advanced Control A problem for most systems.

Now we get to add the security aspect to the system. I like the elk and it seems to be a solid system. I am looking to expand its reach into my devices. Insteon motion sensors and leak sensors are a problem because there is no "error" check to make sure they are working. I have had many missed battery low signals . The new insteon motion modules have had less than stellar reviews. So Im going to try to expand the elk wirelessly. And possibly include the locks. I also use the Intsteon IO module to control some advance alarming features. Voices messages and sirens/lights. It too has failed.  So again going back to use more physical IO from the elk. 

I have yet to discuss advanced automation such as HVAC, irrigation and power management. Clearly the ISY or most home automation systems do not know how to deal with analog signals, Temperatures, moisture, power, voltage, and weather data. I have had 3 of the insteon sprinkler modules fail at $200 each.  I can do the same with a $100 plc that will last 20 years.

So Zwave Insteon / what ever are still not where they need to be.The best feature of the ISY is the great job they did with mobilinc But it is just an HMI and there may be a DIY solution I am thinking Codesys or a DIY web based server.

 

 

Older insteon devices have been prone to premature failure. Newer insteon devices are much better built. With that said, I allows implore people to look beyond simple device failures and look at the root cause. While financially not everyone can do everything to protect their devices; at a minimum, I always install a whole home surge protector. We protect out 1k TV's but will spend the same amount on switches and do nothing for those. Then complain when issues arise. 

Insteon nor any other automation tool not designed for security should NOT be used for security. They can be used as an addition to but not replacement for a true alarm system. I use my zwave motion sensors in conjunction with my elk to provide convenience features along with the security aspect.

The use of Elk sensors for the elk system is Paramount for a multitude of reasons. As you have already found out missing low battery warnings is very easy. By default, I replace my batteries yearly. While my motion sensors have a glass break sensor in it, I don't use it with my elk. I use elk sensors with it because of the 2 way communication. If there's a problem I know about it vs finding out later I haven't been protected. When my system is unarmed, they are used just in case someone does break a window 

The ISY is simply a controller that talks to HVAC devices. All that you claimed as Michel has stated is blatantly false. With the proper devices along with proper setup of those devices you can accomplish all that you say you cannot. Will it do what a standalone system designed from the ground up for that specific task? The answer of course is no! But, neither can those systems do what the ISY does. My approach to my system was to use the best products available for that task. I don't try to use the ISY for my sprinklers. One day I may add my rain machine to it but for now, it does what I need on its own. The same functions I would program using the ISY, I can do in 5 minutes from the unit itself. The same with my thermostats. I use the ecobee3. Once again, I can program the same things in 5 minutes that I would do in the ISY. 

All systems have issues with LED loads except for specific cases. I'm using a multitude of led devices with my insteon devices and have been for years. Right now, if you were to buy low voltage lighting, they will try to sell you specific transformers with them. They will have a disclaimer about using other 3rd party transformers. They do this for a reason. Even Litton low voltage dimmer switch has issues with some led loads. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast. Compatibility has improved greatly over the years in regards to newer switches as well as LED bulb design. We are still in the early stages of this technology. We had 100 years to perfect incandescents. We will get there with LEDs.