Insteon and new house construction - which way to go????

[Tuckerdude]

Hey folks...and Happy Holidays!

I stuck this topic in the "Communications Issues" section for a reason. Over the past 10+ years of using Insteon switches, modules, range extenders, motion detectors, (etc, etc), I've been generally ok with their functionality. However, as with many others on this forum...there are sometimes issues with communication between devices, or commands only making it to some of the devices in a scene, but not all. And it's fairly random too...so hard (sometimes) to trace.

Which leads me to my main question. I will be starting the construction of a new home from the ground up. First time I get to design everything from scratch and just the way I want it. And this goes for all the home control systems as well. The house will be pretty large (approx 9000 square feet), with a separate detached shop, and resting on about 20 acres. I'm not building out nearly that much acreage, but the usable space will likely be around 4-5 acres.

So...if you folks were going to start from scratch like this, would you still go with Insteon/ISY? Or are there other products with more features and/or more robust in terms of connection over long distances? Ideally, Id like to be able to control lights, outlets, switches, and get status on sensors from locations almost 1000 feet away from the base controller (The ISY).

Any ideas, thoughts, or suggestions are most welcome!

Thank you

[Scottmichaelj]

Theres a few threads about this already.@Teken has some great ideas how and what to install when building a new home. Some of the top things to do is add a Insteon phase coupler by the electrical panel and also a electrical outlet for the Insteon PLM. This allows the closest line of communication to the panel. Lastly you will need to run a Cat/internet cable back to wherever you plan on having your ISY. I have helped my clients do this on their new homes and it works well. You can also install an Leviton 51120-1 Panel Protector, 120/240-Volt whole home surge that has been tested not to affect Insteon signal loss.

Feel free to ask anything else. Maybe security sensors too (which can do water detection).

[lilyoyo1]

Depends on how much money you want to spend. With what you've said, I'd have a pro do my home vs making it a DIY system. If it must be insteon or zwave then I would go with Insteon since the Powerline signal can definitely travel the distance that you need from different buildings and areas. RF may or may not reach. 

I know someone with multiple guest homes on his property. Instead of trying to tie everything into 1 system, he went with separate controllers for each location so that's a thought as well. Without exact details of what you are trying to do and what things will look like it's hard to say what the best route is exactly. 

Some things I did in my home was wire it like a standard/non-automated house. That way regardless of what direction I chose in the future, I know how it's going to play out. This includes going back to manual switches. I also used oversized switch boxes (your electrician will thank you). I also use whole house surge protectors. I have a panel one like ScottmichaelJ talked about and a meter protector. 

I did install a 2406h insteon phase coupler to my panel. Not really to combine the phases but because it also clears noise off the Powerline. 

Keep it simple. When building your own home, it's easy to get caught up with wanting to do everything. While it sounds good on paper, it can be a bigger headache in the long run. While I did put the infrastructure in for every idea I had (I recommend the same), I didn't do all I wanted. 1.5 years later I still haven't done them and honestly problably won't. 

Should you choose insteon, I do recommend at least 1 zwave outlet in each room. This will help you long term with strengthening your network should you decide to use zwave locks and sensors in your build. 

The rest goes without saying. Solid copper rg6 for cable lines and cat 6a for Ethernet. 

[Tuckerdude]

Much appreciated for the feedback!

I had not considered the idea of having the PLM right next to the electrical panel...makes alot of sense! I guess that means I need to have the ISY right next to it? Or as you say a dedicated ethernet jack for it that runs to my server room inside the house. No issues with distance in that scenario? Or should I just locate the ISY and PLM near the panel?

lilyoyo1...you asked if it "Must be Insteon", and the answer is no. Is there another product line that works better? I don't mind spending the money if there's a better solution. Bingo on the oversized switch boxes, I always do that whenever I am retro-fitting. So it's a given that we will use them for this project. You mentioned zwave outlets...and it made me wonder if I should consider mixing Insteon and Zwave together? I guess as far as the ISY is concerned, it doesn't matter. I've just never made the leap to trying out zwave devices. Mostly because I've spent so much on dozens (and dozens) or Insteon products.

 

[Scottmichaelj]

2 hours ago, Tuckerdude said:

Much appreciated for the feedback!

I had not considered the idea of having the PLM right next to the electrical panel...makes alot of sense! I guess that means I need to have the ISY right next to it? Or as you say a dedicated ethernet jack for it that runs to my server room inside the house. No issues with distance in that scenario? Or should I just locate the ISY and PLM near the panel?

Distance doesn't matter for the PLM to the ISY connection via the network cable. That said if you want, you could keep the ISY close and run the "network" cable back to the server room. If your OCD like I am you could use a Middle Atlantic Proximity Series In Wall box with a cover. I would also add a Digital Loggers Web Switch for remote access to turn on the outlet on/off. You could even toss in a EZFlorz irrigation control in there too. Another option is you could just put a full structured wiring panel there too. Toss the internet modem etc inside and then do one "homerun" back to the rack.

https://www.middleatlantic.com/products/display-mounts/av-storage-solutions/proximity-in-wall-boxes.aspx

https://dlidirect.com/products/new-pro-switch

There're other products like Lutron RadioRA2 you could use instead of the ISY/Insteon/ZWave, however the price is more and you may need a professional.

http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/WholeHomeSystems/RadioRA2/Overview.aspx

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, Tuckerdude said:

Much appreciated for the feedback!

I had not considered the idea of having the PLM right next to the electrical panel...makes alot of sense! I guess that means I need to have the ISY right next to it? Or as you say a dedicated ethernet jack for it that runs to my server room inside the house. No issues with distance in that scenario? Or should I just locate the ISY and PLM near the panel?

lilyoyo1...you asked if it "Must be Insteon", and the answer is no. Is there another product line that works better? I don't mind spending the money if there's a better solution. Bingo on the oversized switch boxes, I always do that whenever I am retro-fitting. So it's a given that we will use them for this project. You mentioned zwave outlets...and it made me wonder if I should consider mixing Insteon and Zwave together? I guess as far as the ISY is concerned, it doesn't matter. I've just never made the leap to trying out zwave devices. Mostly because I've spent so much on dozens (and dozens) or Insteon products.

 

I prefer insteon switches and zwave sensors. For my alarm, I use dedicated hardwired recessed sensors for my alarm. 

My preference for insteon comes down to looks. I haven't seen any zwave switches that I like more than them. Zwave has come a long way in the last 10 years but my preference is still insteon for looks, feel, and ease of use. In the end, you won't be disappointed in either one. 

I have zwave outlets because I knew that I would be using some zwave devices such as sensors and locks. I have a few of the insteon motion  sensors and I like them. I just prefer how the zwave sensors look more. I hate wallworts so while plug in modules probably give the best range I didn't want stuff sticking out of the walls. 

 

[Tuckerdude]

Thanks for all the great feedback!

lilyoyo1, I agree with you about the "looks" of the insteon devices. It's another reason I've stayed with them over anything else. I just want to ensure that I have super reliable communication so that commands ALWAYS WORK! ? I'm curious which zwave sensors do you like?

Scottmichaelj, thanks for the links. I like those enclosures....and always on the hunt for new ones. That will also be on the list for this new property, in particular waterproof outdoor housings that I can use to put equipment into like POE switches for security cameras around the perimeter of the property. So, that's in the mix as well. And....WOW, I love that "Pro-Switch". Already ordered one to try out!

 

[MWareman]

Personally, if starting from scratch I would consider a home run for every switch, outlet and light fitting. Then use DIN rail dimmers and relays at a central location (either Insteon or Zwave I believe are available in DIN rail versions).

 

Then, any switch of your taste can be used independently of the dimming technology.

 

Expensive up front for sure. But all the smarts are located in one place (rather than distributed over a large property).

 

[Tuckerdude]

Hey Mwareman...thanks for chiming in!

Just looked at the DIN Rail insteon options, and I "sort-of" get it. But how/why is it better? Sorry, I've just never used the Din Rail stuff before. I'll do some research on it...thanks for the suggestion.

[MWareman]

I don’t currently use them myself. Fundamentally, they allow you a high density method of centraly mounting your dimmers and switches. The light fittings are individually wired to dimmers and outlets individually wired to relays. Then, conventional switches wire to the input side of dimmers - so ultimately the switch controls the dimmer and the dimmer dims the light, and ISY can get the status of the dimmer as well as control it.

 

Benefit is all the tech is in one place in your property - easier to guard against power surges etc... Down side is the expense.

 

[apostolakisl]

I sort of get the din rail thing, but personally, I don't think I would do it.  First off, once wired this way, the house is pretty much forever wired this way.  It can not easily be wired conventionally.  You would still need Insteon switches/kpls at all of the control locations.  More or less, you would have din rail Insteon device for each fixture that would be the thing actually controlling the fixture.  Then, at each control location (ie like next to the door to a room) you would need another Insteon device that is linked to the din rail device as a scene member to tell the din rail device what to do.  In conventional wiring, that same device at the door to the room, would also actually control the device.  Essentially, you have all the same devices located around the house, plus, for each fixture, an additional din rail device.  Plus, you have a lot more wiring with all those extra home runs.  I don't know, just don't see how it is better.  I should add that it does offer you the option to install some of the super high-end systems like Crestron which require home runs.  But I think Crestron and the like have numbered days.  They charge waaaaaaaaaaay more money and the "consumer" grade stuff just keeps getting better and better, and is already better in a number of ways.  Especially that you don't need to pay a technician $200 every time something doesn't go just quite perfect.

[carealtor]

13 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I sort of get the din rail thing, but personally, I don't think I would do it.  First off, once wired this way, the house is pretty much forever wired this way.  It can not easily be wired conventionally.  You would still need Insteon switches/kpls at all of the control locations.  More or less, you would have din rail Insteon device for each fixture that would be the thing actually controlling the fixture.  Then, at each control location (ie like next to the door to a room) you would need another Insteon device that is linked to the din rail device as a scene member to tell the din rail device what to do.  In conventional wiring, that same device at the door to the room, would also actually control the device.  Essentially, you have all the same devices located around the house, plus, for each fixture, an additional din rail device.  Plus, you have a lot more wiring with all those extra home runs.  I don't know, just don't see how it is better.  I should add that it does offer you the option to install some of the super high-end systems like Crestron which require home runs.  But I think Crestron and the like have numbered days.  They charge waaaaaaaaaaay more money and the "consumer" grade stuff just keeps getting better and better, and is already better in a number of ways.  Especially that you don't need to pay a technician $200 every time something doesn't go just quite perfect.

For what it's worth, I completely agree with this and would not recommend home running the lighting.  As a Realtor, I can tell you this would be a very hard sell down the road.

[Tuckerdude]

Thanks apostolakisl...I think I agree with you! I looked at the DIN Rail stuff for the last hour or so, and came away with a similar conclusion.

Not thinking about resale, but then again you never know right? Another good point and something to consider now versus 10 years from now.

So I guess I am back to the idea of using Insteon property-wide, and doing everything I can to ensure that the electrical infrastructure is "Insteon-friendly". Given how much I have invested in the product line, I think it's the way to go. I was just wondering if there were other products out there with similar functionality that I should consider before pulling the trigger. So far, I've not heard of anything better which makes me feel better about proceeding.

[asbril]

Based on your described plans, and unless you take  pleasure to do it yourself, I would go for a professional design and implementation. As someone mentioned, you have to think about the resale value, and a future buyer might not enjoy d-i-y as much as you may.

But if your option is either Insteon or Zwave, I suggest that you consider Zwave over Insteon. This is a bit controversial as many in this forum prefer Insteon but I  see more future in Zwave.

Know that some disagree (strongly) with me, but the sole manufacturer aspect of Insteon, as well as the PLM dependency, has made me move all the way to Zwave, and I am not  looking back to my X10 and Insteon days.

But regardless, ISY should be your hub.

[Tuckerdude]

Hi asbril...

Appreciate the feedback, and maybe you can answer something for me then. Is Zwave more responsive than Insteon? And do you ever have to submit the same command more than once to get them to respond? That is the crux of my issues with Insteon. In some cases, I've added multiple on (and off) commands to each of my programs as the only way to ensure that the commands get through. Even then, there are times when (after 3-5 of the same command being sent) some devices in the scene don't respond. Like my outdoor lighting for example. It's not every time, but often enough where some of the outside lights have gone out at the pre-determined time of night, but others wind up staying on all night because they never received the commands. If I could solve this one issue, I'd be a much happier man.

Do you find those issues with Zwave?

 

Thanks!!!

[asbril]

21 minutes ago, Tuckerdude said:

Do you find those issues with Zwave?

Rarely, but make sure to use Zwave Plus devices.

My main issue with Insteon (again..... my opinion is not shared by all on this forum) is that you depend on one sole manufacturer with a limited range of devices.You also depend on a PLM that has a limited life-span.

There is a much wider range of Zwave devices and by far most are compatible with each other and with ISY.

Of course the advantage of ISY is that you can mix Insteon and Zwave but when starting from scratch my advise is to stick with 1 technology, in my case Zwave.

Note that Zwave is not perfect. This week two of my Zwave switches went rogue on me and needed to be replaced, but I used the opportunity to use the newer Zwave Plus switches.

In the case of my automatic curtains I use Mimolites for ON/OFF. These work well but (in my  case) they do not report the status to the ISY. When I control the curtains with the remote control that came with the curtains, the ISY won't know that I changed the status.Nothing is perfect.

 

[Scottmichaelj]

Another idea, is if you get an Elk alarm system you can use it to control devices/scenes and programs in the ISY. For example lets say you have a pantry in the kitchen with a light inside (switched). If you hardwire an alarm sensor you can make the light turn on and off automatically when you open and close the door (the zone is violated/normal). These zones can be independently configured of the actual alarm system.

[lilyoyo1]

I don't mind the insteon/zwave debate. I just get tired of the sole manufacturer argument part. At the end of the day, unless you want 10 different looking switches in your home, you will ALWAYS have a sole manufacturer.

The same fear of insteon going out of business is the same fear you should have of ANY manufacturer. Zwave or otherwise. If you use homeseer switches; they can shut down and then what? You'll buy someone else's devices. No different than using insteon and the same thing happening. BTW- How many zwave companies have shut down in the time that certain people have been calling for insteon's demise?

I like the fibaro sensors. The Dome motion sensors are cheaper and similar in appearance. However I like fibaro due to the mounting design. It allows for greater accuracy when trying to set it in the direction you want it to go. 

I think the home run looks are cool but would never do it nor buy a house designed that way. Besides being too "custom" and the limitations inherent in the design my biggest gripe is what do you do if something should go wrong. If my insteon keypad or any of my light switches in any given room goes bad, I still have other switches to turn on a light. If your controller goes bad, you're stuck in many ways. Having voice and app control mitigates that to a certain extent. However it's still something I would need to remedy immediately vs doing it at a more convenient time.

[apostolakisl]

10 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

 

I think the home run looks are cool but would never do it nor buy a house designed that way. Besides being too "custom" and the limitations inherent in the design my biggest gripe is what do you do if something should go wrong. If my insteon keypad or any of my light switches in any given room goes bad, I still have other switches to turn on a light. If your controller goes bad, you're stuck in many ways. Having voice and app control mitigates that to a certain extent. However it's still something I would need to remedy immediately vs doing it at a more convenient time.

I had a friend who had Crestron.  It regularly had issues and each time it had an issue, he literally could not turn the lights on.   He had to wait a day for someone to come, had to either be there himself or have someone else let them in, and had to pay them a few hundred dollars every time.  He actually sold the house just because of it.  At least with a conventionally wired system, you could replace the load switch in a few minutes and immediately have at least one switch working that was located in the room.

I also agree with the going out of business thing.  I am not really all that worried about Insteon going out of business, but it holds true for any company.  Even with some of these gigantic conglomerates that do z-wave, they might not go out of business, but they could easily just end their z-wave product line. . . and this has happened.  It is easy enough to future proof yourself just by buying a handful of spare switches.  If the company goes belly up, you likely are good for many years with spares on hand.

[Tuckerdude]

Hey everybody...

I agree (wholeheartedly) about the Crestron stuff. They and other's like them love to sell the sizzle, but I too have heard the horror stories. I am not easily scared off by stuff like this, and have spent tons of time doing these things myself. While I'm not adverse to have others come in and do the work, I always want to UNDERSTAND what is going on under the hood. It's the reason I have stuck with the ISY and Insteon.

Regarding the "Going out of business" debate, I can see asbril's point of view, but I'm not too worried about it myself. I WILL however look into a few z-wave devices and try them out over the next few months. Just to see how they work and if there's any obvious advantages.

But when it comes time to start implementing, I am going to follow the advice above regarding the main panel and use best practices in the build-out.

[kohai]

I think the single vendor problem is that if they do go out of business there isn't any way to integrate that equipment with another vendor.  You end up upgrading the entire system all at once if the system fails enough to warrant it.  If a z-wave company fails, you can still use the switches, etc, with another vendor's equipment.  

I have avoided Insteon because of the single vendor issue AND also because of dying PLMs.  If you have a single vendor and dying PLMs you really will have a shortage of replacements if they go out of business.  You know you will be replacing that PLM every 2 years.  Said another way, if Insteon goes out of business, you're always 2 years from your system possibly being useless if you can't find replacements or repair it yourself.  Building an entire house around a system that dies every 2 years is a yucky idea IMO.

[Tuckerdude]

Hey kohai...points well taken!

Although I must say that I've not had issues with the PLM's that I've bought over the past 10 years, and been using the same ones at 2 properties without having to replace them. Maybe I've been lucky on that front, but in all that time I've not had to replace one of them.

That being said, the other thing I am trying to steer clear from, is any REAL reliance on Cloud-based platforms. You wanna talk about the potential for "going out of business". These cloud services are even scarier in my opinion. So no matter what, I'm NOT going to be putting anything mission critical on any cloud dependent platform. That's just asking for trouble later-on down the road.

But again, thanks to everyone for all the great feedback. All good food for thought!

[lilyoyo1]

I haven't had plm issues either. In fact my test plm is a plm that was a customer return for the plm issue given to me to test. Years later it's still working. Not to say that there aren't failures but I think people are to quick to blame the plm versus troubleshooting and finding the real culprit.

I keep extra devices for all my things. If something goes out, I don't want to wait days to replace it. That goes for insteon and zwave

With the ISY, the vendor issue becomes a moot point since you can user both protocols. Hell, in 10 years there may be something completely different out. 

You can't go wrong with either insteon or zwave. I think zwave is growing into their own though they still have more to do to catch up. Insteon is still a tad bit faster in communicating with each another. It's definitely much easier to deal with as you don't have different implementations of insteon devices like you do with zwave. A single switch can talk to more devices directly which helps should your controller go down. Insteon is also more versatile and configurable (as a simple switch not including gimmicks).

[apostolakisl]

Speaking of cloud services.  I have an eyefi card in my camera at the office.  It works great, my photos get "beamed" up to the server in seconds.  After years of it just working, I have decided to upgrade my entire office to Ubiquiti networking.  So in the process, I am going to have new wifi ssid/password.  I go to log into the eyefi server (which is the only way to configure the eyefi sd cards ssid/password) and I can't seem to login.  Turns out, they went belly up.  So I had to use the same ssid/password.  The ubiquiti stuff is quite feature rich so I was able to lock down the ssid to just that device.  

Back to Insteon.  If they went belly up.  I can promise you someone would buy the technology rights.  They have a pretty large customer base out there meaning that someone would buy the rights to their technology and continue production.  And fortunately, we know how to fix the vast majority of failed Insteon devices.  It is almost always the capacitors, no matter what the dead device is (plm or otherwise).

[ELA]

On 12/11/2018 at 8:54 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

I did install a 2406h insteon phase coupler to my panel. Not really to combine the phases but because it also clears noise off the Powerline. 

 

That I have not heard before. Can you please explain how it clears noise off the line.