New Insteon Motion Sensor 2844-222 set up and test

[ctviggen1]

I have an "old" (bought last year) Insteon Motion Sensor, 2844-222, which is the newer model.  I have version 5.0.14 running on my ISY 994i.  I'm trying to determine whether this motion sensor works or whether it is bad (was outside for the last year, but has a new battery). The manual for the sensor assumes you have an app, so it's basically useless.

Is there a tutorial that tells you (me) how to set up and test this?  If not, how do I set it up?   For instance, do I manually have to enter the address?  Or can I search?  If I set the sensor to only come on at night, but it's during the day and I hit the "set" button, will the ISY 994 receive this signal?

Thank you.

By the way, does anyone like this model over the old model?  I like the old model better.  I thought it was easier to use, was easier to get batteries for, and seemed to last longer. 

[Bumbershoot]

25 minutes ago, ctviggen1 said:

I have an "old" (bought last year) Insteon Motion Sensor, 2844-222, which is the newer model.  I have version 5.0.14 running on my ISY 994i.  I'm trying to determine whether this motion sensor works or whether it is bad (was outside for the last year, but has a new battery). The manual for the sensor assumes you have an app, so it's basically useless.

Is there a tutorial that tells you (me) how to set up and test this?  If not, how do I set it up?   For instance, do I manually have to enter the address?  Or can I search?  If I set the sensor to only come on at night, but it's during the day and I hit the "set" button, will the ISY 994 receive this signal?

Thank you.

By the way, does anyone like this model over the old model?  I like the old model better.  I thought it was easier to use, was easier to get batteries for, and seemed to last longer. 

You need to manually enter the address of the sensor, but follow the menu listing shown in the attached screenshot.  I haven't set one up in a while, but it works much like the previous model, with more configuration options and data available from the device.

Yes, you can place the sensor into linking mode at any time using the "set" button, and the ISY will receive the message.

Personally, I like this motion sensor better, so far, with the following caveat: I haven't been able to make the green LED stop flashing upon motion detection when on battery power.  It's too bright to be unobtrusive/unnoticed when it's in complete darkness.  I couldn't even get the LED to stop blinking when I configured it with a hub.

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Brian H said:

2842-222 is not the new model Motion Sensor II.

It is a later revision of the older 2420M Motion Sensor. I would try the Motion Sensor choice in the drop down menu.

 

He said 2844-222 is the sensor he has not the 2842.

[Brian H]

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

He said 2844-222 is the sensor he has not the 2842.

I read the part number incorrectly. So my post is removed by me.

Thank you for pointing out the error so bad information was not posted.

[cpinvt]

Re: LED too bright - did you check the 'options' to reduce the brightness ?

[Bumbershoot]

4 hours ago, cpinvt said:

Re: LED too bright - did you check the 'options' to reduce the brightness ?

Oh yes, tried that, and anything else I can think of.  The interesting thing with this sensor is that it also blinks at random times, when there's no activity that shows in the event viewer, but only on battery.

[redridge]

Excuse my ignorance I am still running the latest 4.x version.  I just received a couple of these from their "sensor sale" @ $20/each.  I am just getting errors trying to get them to appear in the device list (if they do that).  Can I link my Motion II's to an unused relay within a keypad-linc and have it's change-of-state trigger a program?  I'm still working through replacing a lot of PCS X-10 but have had my ISY for a few years running flawless, considering all the junk in my house.

[lilyoyo1]

Whats your firmware and UI

 

[redridge]

v.4.7.3.  (just loaded) and my unit is the ISY994i/IR PRO.  I think I put the Z-Wave module in there a year ago or so.

[kclenden]

Since you're on V4, you have to add the 2844-222 as a 2842.  See this thread:

 

With V4 you can't change any of the MS options, so you're stuck with it sending an OFF command 30 seconds after it sends an ON.

And to answer your question, you could manually link it to a KeypadLinc and use the state of the Keypadlinc as a trigger, but that would be no better than adding it to the ISY as a 2842.

[redridge]

Ok I think I'm following you somewhat.  I can set a flag waving my hand in front of it, then I wait to see some code appear in the log (30 seconds no sooner) and I can wave my hand in front of it again to unset the flag, which has allowed me to turn a light on and off.  This is certainly good enough for energy management general occupancy right?

[kclenden]

1 hour ago, redridge said:

Ok I think I'm following you somewhat.  I can set a flag waving my hand in front of it, then I wait to see some code appear in the log (30 seconds no sooner) and I can wave my hand in front of it again to unset the flag, which has allowed me to turn a light on and off.  This is certainly good enough for energy management general occupancy right?

You could certainly set a state variable any time the MS was "switched on" (i.e. you waved your hand in front of it), and then control devices based on that variable.  After 30 seconds without any motion, the MS II will send a "switched off" message to the ISY.  You could choose to do something with that information, or not.  The problem with 30 seconds is that it's entirely possible for people to not move enough in that time period for the MS to detect them.  So most people choose a longer period of time.  Under V4, you can't change that 30 second period on the MS II, so if you want a longer time period, you have to ignore the "switched off" coming from the MS II, and use your own timing program.

[redridge]

Gotcha.  Not sure I'd recognize that message in the log and since I am not using 5.x do I have that in the conditional logic?  My wife was complaining that sometimes she gets up in the middle of the night and goes out to the living room and reads.  Then my routines would kick in on the hour and do a global lights off.  I think this flag would work especially if followed by that particular reading light (or any one of the three chair focused recessed spots in the ceiling) could prevent her being frustrated in the dark. (she calls it the "crazy house")

(btw I do see the conditional logic in there for on, off or responding). How is "responding" used, like a toggle?

[kclenden]

Commands from devices don't really appear in the "logs", just device status changes.  In my V5 Log, I don't actually see any direct indication that my MS II has detected motion.  What I do see is that the status of devices to which it is linked change to ON, so I know that it sent an ON command.

If you actually want to see commands that come from Devices, you need to use the Event Viewer (Tools>Diagnostics>Event Viewer).  While hard to read, if you know the 3-digit hex address of the device (which appears below its name in the Admin Console), you can easily see the device commands that the ISY sees.

The conditional logic in V4 is the same as in V5.  When adding the condition to the IF command, simply choose the MS and choose "Control" instead of "Status".  That will result in a "switched on" appearing in the actual IF instead of a "status is on".

If you have a routine that does an hourly global lights off, then using a MS to preempt that routine for a couple iterations would certainly make life more livable for your wife.

[redridge]

Hey thanks again.  I did mean the event viewer sorry.  That's what I was watching.  

Way back in the 90's I replaced all the manual load controlling switches and dimmers, fished wires around and moved them to centralized locations.  I replaced them physically with the decora style X-10 transmitter-only keypads surrounded by screw-less faceplates.  They still do a good job of messaging the ISY and controlling the loads directly albeit X-10 or insteon.  Their address wiper contacts are susceptible but I have such a back stock from "the great liquidation". Their addresses can actually be soldered permanent too.  The ISY sends out strings rather then direct commands so I don't create those pesky endless command loops when a transmitter button is manually pressed.  It allows me to bank all the data in the ISY, and all the button LED's can be updated in strings without affecting the loads when needed. Crude some say but it works.

I always thought Smarthome would come out with an elegant transmitter-only keypad-linc that would be more affordable so I could go around the house and replace every one of the wall transmitters.....but they never did.  Who knew?

[kclenden]

15 minutes ago, redridge said:

Crude some say but it works.

In my HA experience, whatever works is standard operating procedure.  Having said that, having also come from X-10, the combination of the ISY and Insteon devices makes for much more reliable and sophisticated solutions, but I never had transmit-capable X10 devices.

[paulbates]

I retired a number of 4 button leviton wall transmitters a number of years ago switching to Insteon. By far the most powerful x10 transmitter I had. They were also traffic smart and would re-transmit when they saw a collision.

I thought I had sold them all off but found a couple cleaning up a parts box a few weeks ago, one of them is a rebranded IBM unit.

Paul

[redridge]

My memory is fading but I think those in your link (without the LED’s) were the X-10/PCS brands. Here is a photo of the passage from our bedroom to our sitting room that illustrates my dilemma.  I favored the two button versions in a lot of areas.  Labels easier to read and symmetry with my flush mount alarm keypad.  Here a single 14 gauge romex fed a three gang box, with basically 5 transmitter/LED buttons and a dimmer that applies to any or all the loads there in that house code.  My dilemma is (3) Keypad-lincs would waste the three physical load control elements within them, plus I need to figure out and create at a minimum 18 buttons for that location!

i have another cabin project coming up Smarthome needs to step it up with a few new keypad transmit-only variations to accommodate those wanting to use centralized, home run load control with those gorgeous DIN-Rail modules.  They have the benefit of the extra hard-wire trigger inputs!

[paulbates]

That setup looks great, that's what I went for with the levitons.  I get what you mean about 18 buttons.. that can be overwhelming to the occupants and not really functional.  You may want to think about (1) 6 button (maybe 2 depending on functions you can automate) and 2 switchlincs...  or 2 switchlincs and an 8.

Here's some general design things I think about:

• 6 buttons are good for major living space lighting... its intuitive the the big button is the room lighting.
• You can support a multiple gang box with one Keypad and multiple switchlincs. I've even blank plated some gangs.
• Keep small button use consistent.. for us, the lowest right button is always "all off / goodnight" for whatever living space its in
• Expose other convenience items that are helpful through buttons, even though they may not be located there:
  • Our garage door cannot be seen from the master bed room... was it left up?
  • Our attic fan cools the whole house and its convenient to have control from multiple living spaces without having to change floors.
  • There's a button in the stairway near the attic door to remotely turn on the attic light. 
  • A "party" button near the kitchen/living room that overrides the next scheduled ISY lighting programs . If we're entertaining, I don't want late night automated lights out. Anyone can press that, I don't need to be called or be there.
  • Kill the current sprinkler cycle. Sprinkling is fully automated, but occasionally runs in the day. This gives the family a way to kill it if the yard is being used... without me being called.

FWIW, I'm not using the load feature of any of my keypads and use them as "transmit only". Getting the customized buttons and being able to create virtual circuits (similar to sharing a HC/UC between multiple devices) and having consistent common sense button labeling across keypads at multiple room entrances was the priority. I would have used it if there was a way to do it with consistent button use, but functionality came first.

I get it that keypads are more expensive... I planned the projects out and waited for holiday and other sales when Insteon items were heavily discounted.  

I had the LED Leviton versions (below), that link was all I could find. It surprised me that they are still being sold. It turns out mine are both the IBM branded, Leviton OEM... identical outside of the sticker.

[redridge]

Ok I forgot that the switchlincs can be used as transmit-only too, and the new single LED relay switchlinc will reflect status of what-ever it's linked to right?  Is that what you meant?  A lot of my wall transmitter locations are completely new, so they were fed with a single circuit 15 amp wire. Also I removed a lot of the switch lead wiring for relocation.  X-10 was/is a completely different animal as far as keeping a clean signal path to the load and controller/mcp

Is it true that one of the keypadlinc buttons is dedicated to the internal switch/dimmer device and that the only way around it is a scene designation to get out and control another device?  Here's a spot where I could definitely use (4) 6 button Keypadlincs!

[paulbates]

Switchlincs have 9 led lights up the side. For dimmers, the lit led will move as dimming level changes. For the relay, it will hop between the top and bottoms. If you use insteon switches transmitter only, either the relay or dimmer version of keypads and switches will transmit on/off and dim to dimming module. So you could use either for your "transmitter only" application. However, the other functional difference is that the relay versions of insteon switches make a noticeable click from its relay, not quite as imposing as an X10 relay clunk, but you'll hear it. You'll probably want the dimmer..  But when when you press and hold, both versions send dimming commands to dimmer modules.

Insteon has both powerline signalling and rf. If you buy and install an number of new switches, they will communicate over the air. Their signal is stronger then x10.

The red load lead of a keypad is dedicated to the A button of an 8 button keypad, or the On/Off button pair of a 6 button. You can't specify that you want the load controlled by another button. However, the insteon network features are the same outside of that. All buttons can be added to scenes, and can either control, be controlled or both by the network. I have 3 keypads that are at 3 entrances to our family room, kitchen and living room. A number of buttons are the same function on the three switches and all turn each other on and off as well as the corresponding loads which are mostly low voltage electric lighting.  

Just like your leviton example... you use the keypad keys to control a receiving device like another switchlinc, an inlinelinc, lamp module or micromodule. You use the ISY as insteon network manager to program links one time into the devices that cause them to send messages to each other.(don't follow the linking directions to manually link that come with the switches)

A way to think of scene... its the same a setting one or more devices to the same HC/UC in x10. In your picture, lets say one of the buttons turned on 3 lamps... you'd set the lamp modules for the lamps to the same HC/UC as the leviton button, and they'd all go on/off at the same time. The procedure for insteon scenes does the same thing, but is a little more involved... in that each device has its own unique unchangeable code, so individual devices are added to scenes, and then the scene is turned on and off.... but functionally its the same. The other benefits to insteon is faster response due to tighter grouping of the bits in its messages than x10, and also, controlled insteon devices automatically send a response and things are retried several times automatically. Though some x10 devices were called 2 way, the 2 way feature has to be called with a controller, x10 switches don't automatically validate transmissions between themselves like insteon.

For your picture, I might think about one or two 6 button keypads and one or two switch lincs between those 2 boxes... depending how functionality is split between that room, adjoining rooms and upstairs. Potentially only one keypad and 3 switchlincs across the two boxes.

If my eyes are not deceiving me, that looks like at TX15B up on the wall there! I had one of those and its close cousin the tx10b. ~10 years good years of service out of them and able to sell both at the end.

Paul

 

[redridge]

You are correct sir!  With the control module attached to the furnace.  I like it’s full time illumination but it will probably be a Nest or something similar soon.  You are actually not aware of the new single LED relay Switchlincs?  I just got a box of them during the 30% sale. 

Paul, thanks for your explanations and great ideas, I have a lot of lab to do before diving into this.  I am finding you really need a working knowledge of Insteon before you can really plan it out.  BTW would love to see some photos of your current configs.

[redridge]

Paul one last question.  Would it be possible to assimilate the X-10 transmitters since I have so many buttons with the keypadlincs?  As it is now I can manually select a load button or a small group of buttons and then brighten or dim them all with the non-LED single bright/dim button.  This would be a user selected scene implementation rather than a PROM resident scene in the device.  I would have to use some of the up and down button caps from the A/V buttons that I see are available.  I have my doubts about this but thought I would ask.  Maybe the ISY could assist in this with sub-routines.

[paulbates]

53 minutes ago, redridge said:

You are correct sir!  With the control module attached to the furnace.  I like it’s full time illumination but it will probably be a Nest or something similar soon.  You are actually not aware of the new single LED relay Switchlincs?  I just got a box of them during the 30% sale. 

Paul, thanks for your explanations and great ideas, I have a lot of lab to do before diving into this.  BTW would love to see some photos of your current configs.

No hadn't seen that model, just looked now. It says it still does brighten and dim commands, however smarthome have made copy / paste errors on new products before. I'm guessing that still works. But haven't bought switches in a while. 

Here's the bottom and top of my stairwell. The bottom used to have 2 Leviton 4 buttons and 1 at the top. I was able to do more helpful things with the keypad

The swtichlinc is closest to the stair well and turns it on and off. This was one of the most left-on lights in my house. An ISY program watches, and after 6 minutes of it turning on, it dims to 50%, and then waits another minute and then turns off. A double tap on will keep it on for 6 hours when cleaning, etc

The Keypad mostly controls the lamps. Two of the lamps turn on themselves 40 minutes before sunset and off early am, but this allows manual control of them.

Porch manually turns the porch light on and off, which goes on with all of the yard lights, but this gives manual control, eg unlikely middle of the night caller. Decor turns on decorations and seasonal lights around the house which are on a schedule, but also have special program timing around Christmas. They also turn themselves on and off with ISY programs, but this allows manual control. The on/off is for the lamps, primarily if someone wants to switch them off.

This is at the top of the stairwell. On/off is for the stairwell lights.

Attic fan can be on/off, or On 45 minutes then off when going to bed so it doesn't run all night

Good night shuts off all downstairs lights that aren't under schedule control, in case we forget at bed time

Attic light is for me so the attic is lit before I even pull the door down which is right there. Its on a program that dims after an hour or so, waits 20 minutes, and then off. Its an insteon light bulb that acts flaky after brown/black outs and turns itself on. I basically don't want it on for no reason, but our attic has several partitions and I don't want it shutting the lights off if I'm way back there inspecting or doing something!

Paul

 

[redridge]

Very cool.  I'm usually hung up on symmetry to a fault but that looks great!  I am long past that stage now but I can see how the legalization of pot could help HA.  You could literally sit around and dream up ideas (waste time) for programming.  Thanks for taking the time to snap some photos and explain the rational.