johnnyt Posted February 13, 2019 Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) I'm a long time user (and fan) of ISY that hasn't made the jump to 5.0 for lack of time to deal with alpha software, a need for stability, and no need for z-wave (yet). My ISY (running 4.7.3) has been rock solid over the years with very few unexplainable issues. Stability and reliability has clearly been a UDI priority, even in beta, at least pre 5.0 (I simply don't know for 5.0 beta) I'm at a crossroads though with 5.0 now in beta but stating in release notes (and elsewhere) that a lot of manual intervention may be needed. I have 178 devices (all insteon), 106 scenes, 923 programs, 275 variables and 77 network resources, and I'd like help assessing my options. 1. What are the chances there will be a 5.0 version that does not require a lot of manual intervention, or will a lot of manual intervention always be part of move from 4.x to 5.x? 2. How easy it is to know what needs manual intervention? Will I need to look through - or worse, monitor - all 900+ programs to know, or will there be some indication like "Not Saved" (due to changes) when I look in the console as to what programs have been affected? 3. My biggest problem with ISY is its performance. I have VenLink, DSCLink, ISYLogger, plus I had HomeSeer for a while (now out of the equation) and I constantly get reports of timeouts from ISY (even without HomeSeer polling or needing updates). See attached sample. I also find loading the console painfully slow, which I use/run all the time (until the memory leak forces me to restart it). My question is, will 5.0 speed things up or slow things down, as new s/w with added functionality often tends to do? Or is there new, more powerful hardware available or in the works? I realize this may be more a question for UDI, not forum users, but throwing it out there in case anyone has heard/read anything. (yes, I also realize performance problems is often a programmer issue but I've also seen horsepower help address less than optimal programming code time and time again.) As well, there can simply be lots happening at once requiring processing power even with highly optimized code. Any comments/feedback would be appreciated. Edited February 13, 2019 by johnnyt
Michel Kohanim Posted February 14, 2019 Posted February 14, 2019 @johnnyt, Since you have no Z-Wave, the only manual intervention is to go to your Programs tab and make sure everything is migrated to the new structure. Those with issues, are marked with 'not saved' or 'not loaded' in yellow. Fix those, and you'll be done. With regards to performance, not sure things will be better but with 5.0.x, DSC and Ven link devices can be ported to node servers and thus they won't need to keep polling to or posting variables to ISY. They become like first class citizens nodes in ISY. You might want to verify with @io_guy. With kind regards, Michel
io_guy Posted February 14, 2019 Posted February 14, 2019 I'd definitely recommend switching to NodeLink with V5. Venstar, DSC and Logger are all part of the same program which will be more efficient than the three programs all hitting the ISY separately. I have 11 devices running on my NodeLink and have no timeout issues. 1
johnnyt Posted February 18, 2019 Author Posted February 18, 2019 Thanks for the replies. Good to know it's easy to find what programs are affected, and that NodeLInk may help performance. What I don't quite have is a sense for whether I'm looking at a few or a lot of programs that need to be changed and what that means. So a couple of follow up questions, if I may: 1. statistically, overall, what's a ball park percentage of programs that end up needing intervention? 2. is there a type of program, or something(s) in particular, that doesn't do so well coming over to 5.0 from 4.x? 3. What is the impact when a program doesn't come over properly? is it just a question of re-saving it or something else? What are some of the things that cause problems? Thanks again.
Michel Kohanim Posted February 18, 2019 Posted February 18, 2019 @johnnyt, 1. Probably 5-10 programs (not percentage) that use old method of invoking commands. But, ALL your nodelink variables must be replaced with the actual nodes 2. Adjust scene 3. Yes, you will see it in Yellow in program summary tab. Then, when you edit, ISY will give you hints in the comment section With kind regards, Michel
johnjces Posted February 19, 2019 Posted February 19, 2019 @johnnyt Please report back and let us know how it goes! Like you, and maybe many others, I have been hesitant to upgrade due to possible issues. Thanks! John
johnnyt Posted February 21, 2019 Author Posted February 21, 2019 I don't think I'll be able to do an upgrade, migration to NodeLink, and fix everything that breaks in an afternoon. So to do this in the time chunks I'll have, as well as be able to maintain the high level of WAF I've managed to achieve, my plan is as follows: buy a second ISY that will go "on the bench" without a PLM load the latest 4.x firmware that can run without a PLM on new ISY restore a prod ISY backup to it (will this work or do I have to load a "no PLM" version on my prod system first and restore backup of that?) upgrade to "no PLM" version of 5.x install NodeLink somewhere and make the needed links between the devices and the new ISY Perform the following break-fix work: fix the programs that didn't migrate well adjust my 100+ scenes add NodeLink variables add needed network resources for NodeLink convert the many programs that used the older xxxLink vars and network resources to now use NodeLink versions Move new ISY to prod, do PLM restore, and see how things work Once established that I don't need to roll back, install a version of 5.x that needs a PLM Grab a beverage and pat myself on the back Am I missing or misunderstanding anything? (I toyed with the idea of grabbing a beverage before I start but figure I better wait until after.) 1
johnnyt Posted May 4, 2019 Author Posted May 4, 2019 About to buy a new ISY to start the process I outlined previously and would like to get one with Zwave right off the bat for future zwave use and have a few questions. Is there any difference between buying an ISY with Zwave "out of the box" vs. getting one without it and adding zwave to it later? (other than, of course, cost) Will there be any problem loading a 4.x backup from a unit without zwave? Will I need to disable or physically remove zwave to avoid problems with my upgrade plan, then add it back in later?
paulbates Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 30 minutes ago, johnnyt said: About to buy a new ISY to start the process I outlined previously and would like to get one with Zwave right off the bat for future zwave use and have a few questions. Is there any difference between buying an ISY with Zwave "out of the box" vs. getting one without it and adding zwave to it later? (other than, of course, cost) Will there be any problem loading a 4.x backup from a unit without zwave? Will I need to disable or physically remove zwave to avoid problems with my upgrade plan, then add it back in later? 24 minutes ago, larryllix said: A new ISY will come with v5 preinstalled. The same task will be ahead though.... the current running v4 environment must needs to be upgraded to 5.x. That is done one of 2 ways: Upgrade the existing ISY to v5, back that up and restore to the new ISY,... or Restore the the V4 backup of the old ISY on to new ISY, and then upgrade the new ISY to V5 I'd recommend #2 and do it this way: Make sure the new ISY has all of the modules (network, climate, etc) the old ISY does Alternatively work with UDI support to transfer the modules from old ISY UUID to new UUID Don't remove or do anything to z-wave on the new ISY at this time. Attach the PLM and network to the new ISY Restore the old v4 backup to the new ISY, makes sure its running. Add the new ISY to the portal, if there is a portal account, make sure everything's working Upgrade the new ISY to v5.015a z-wave version (not the one with zigbee, etc) Follow the 10 steps under Install on the first post of the V5.0.15 thread Ignore the section about migrating zwave from the 4.x branch since there is no existing zwave on the existing ISY After the upgrade, look through the programs tab for any yellow colored program icons that need attention, usually scene related Sometimes just saving them fixes them backup the working result Let it run for ~ 1 week to make sure existing functionality works. Back it up one more time When ready for zwave devices, configure set up zwave card, etc. Paul 1
larryllix Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, paulbates said: The same task will be ahead though.... the current running v4 environment must needs to be upgraded to 5.x. That is done one of 2 ways: Upgrade the existing ISY to v5, back that up and restore to the new ISY,... or Restore the the V4 backup of the old ISY on to new ISY, and then upgrade the new ISY to V5 I'd recommend #2 and do it this way: Make sure the new ISY has all of the modules (network, climate, etc) the old ISY does Alternatively work with UDI support to transfer the modules from old ISY UUID to new UUID Don't remove or do anything to z-wave on the new ISY at this time. Attach the PLM and network to the new ISY Restore the old v4 backup to the new ISY, makes sure its running. Add the new ISY to the portal, if there is a portal account, make sure everything's working Upgrade the new ISY to v5.015a z-wave version (not the one with zigbee, etc) Follow the 10 steps under Install on the first post of the V5.0.15 thread Ignore the section about migrating zwave from the 4.x branch since there is no existing zwave on the existing ISY After the upgrade, look through the programs tab for any yellow colored program icons that need attention, usually scene related Sometimes just saving them fixes them backup the working result Let it run for ~ 1 week to make sure existing functionality works. Back it up one more time When ready for zwave devices, configure set up zwave card, etc. Paul Are the backups from v4 loadable into a V5 system?
paulbates Posted May 4, 2019 Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, larryllix said: Are the backups from v4 loadable into a V5 system? Good point, I missed that one. The ISY needs to be factory reset prior to that. The updated steps are: Make sure the new ISY has all of the modules (network, climate, etc) the old ISY does Alternatively work with UDI support to transfer the modules from old ISY UUID to new UUID Don't remove or do anything to z-wave on the new ISY at this time. Attach the PLM and network to the new ISY Factory reset the new ISY Restore the old v4 backup to the new ISY, makes sure its running. Add the new ISY to the portal, if there is a portal account, make sure everything's working Upgrade the new ISY to v5.015a z-wave version (not the one with zigbee, etc) Follow the 10 steps under Install on the first post of the V5.0.15 thread Ignore the section about migrating zwave from the 4.x branch since there is no existing zwave on the existing ISY After the upgrade, look through the programs tab for any yellow colored program icons that need attention, usually scene related Sometimes just saving them fixes them backup the working result Let it run for ~ 1 week to make sure existing functionality works. Back it up one more time When ready for zwave devices, configure set up zwave card, etc. Edited May 4, 2019 by paulbates
johnnyt Posted May 4, 2019 Author Posted May 4, 2019 Thanks, Paul. I think you've largely validated the plan I posted, although I now realize I have to figure out how to deal with network and climate modules as I only need those temporarily (during upgrade and "burn in" phase). I don't really have a need for 2 ISY's after this, never mind 2 network modules and 2 climate modules... Let me know if I'm missing something. I don't have the portal setup On 2/21/2019 at 1:36 PM, johnnyt said: buy a second ISY that will go "on the bench" without a PLM load the latest 4.x firmware that can run without a PLM on new ISY restore a prod ISY backup to it (will this work or do I have to load a "no PLM" version on my prod system first and restore backup of that?) upgrade to "no PLM" version of 5.x install NodeLink somewhere and make the needed links between the devices and the new ISY Perform the following break-fix work: fix the programs that didn't migrate well adjust my 100+ scenes add NodeLink variables add needed network resources for NodeLink convert the many programs that used the older xxxLink vars and network resources to now use NodeLink versions Move new ISY to prod, do PLM restore, and see how things work Once established that I don't need to roll back, install a version of 5.x that needs a PLM
johnnyt Posted May 4, 2019 Author Posted May 4, 2019 yes, I will add factory reset ahead of my step 2
Michel Kohanim Posted May 5, 2019 Posted May 5, 2019 @johnnyt, Just to be clear, no difference between ISY with Z-Wave out of the box and adding it yourself. Please note that ONLY the ZW series come with 5.0.x firmware. With kind regards, Michel
johnnyt Posted May 5, 2019 Author Posted May 5, 2019 @Michel Kohanim, Thanks. Can you confirm I will be able to "downgrade" a new ZW to 4.x?
Michel Kohanim Posted May 6, 2019 Posted May 6, 2019 @johnnyt, Unfortunately you cannot. 500 series is filled with things that we could not put in 4.7.x without breaking everything. With kind regards, Michel
johnnyt Posted May 7, 2019 Author Posted May 7, 2019 On 5/6/2019 at 11:16 AM, Michel Kohanim said: @johnnyt, Unfortunately you cannot. 500 series is filled with things that we could not put in 4.7.x without breaking everything. Darn. Did not see that coming and it didn't come in time for me to stop delivery of my new "500 Series". What are my options now? How does one upgrade with one of these? Are they just met to be for new installs? Also, what does this mean for someone that goes from older "400 series" running 4.x to 5.x? What is the stuff one is going to be missing when they do that?
Michel Kohanim Posted May 8, 2019 Posted May 8, 2019 @johnnyt, You always have 30 days money back guarantee so you can return it. Alternatively, the following is pretty safe: 1. Take a Z-Wave | Tools | Backup | Full 2. Take an ISY backup (File | Backup ISY) 3. Replace 300 series with 500 series 4. Reboot with a different SD Card (just to be 100000% safe that you an get back) 5. Install 5.0.15A 6. Restore the backup from 2 (all your Z-Wave nodes will disappear) 7. Z-Wave | Tools | Restore | All … this will take Z-Wave nodes from the 300 and restores it into 500 If all fails, then: i. Factory reset ii. Install 4.7.3 iii. Either replace the SD Card with the original or restore your backup from 2 above With kind regards, Michel
johnnyt Posted May 8, 2019 Author Posted May 8, 2019 [mention=1785]johnnyt[/mention], 7. Z-Wave | Tools | Restore | All … this will take Z-Wave nodes from the 300 and restores it into 500 If all fails, then: i. Factory reset ii. Install 4.7.3 iii. Either replace the SD Card with the original or restore your backup from 2 above With kind regards, Michel I don’t yet have any zwave at this point but planning to start adding some after I’ve upgraded and stabilized things.I’m confused. Can I do factory reset and load 4.7.3 on new 500 series? I would rather to do this and upgrade on the bench / stabilize things before taking my current “300” out. What am I missing?Thanks.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
johnnyt Posted May 8, 2019 Author Posted May 8, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, mwester said: 4.7.3 does not support the 500-series z-wave chip. okay but if I don't have zwave and just need to load 4.7.3 (using "No PLM" version) to then do an upgrade to 5.x (also no PLM), will 4.7.3 work on the 500 series? or will 4.7.3 cause crash because of the zwave chip? Edited May 8, 2019 by johnnyt
Michel Kohanim Posted May 9, 2019 Posted May 9, 2019 @johnnyt, It will not crash but you will lose your Z-Wave menu. With kind regards, Michel
johnnyt Posted May 10, 2019 Author Posted May 10, 2019 A quick update up to this point. Got my new "500 series" ISY/IR PRO with Zwave and bought/installed needed modules: climate, X10, network. For the latter I went through the cheaper ISY portal subscription option and will ask UDI to transfer my older ISY's network module license after I've taken it out of prod since I don't need the portal Was able to take it back to 4.7.3 firmware without PLM no problem (FWIW, Zwave menu still showed up in 4.7.3 AC) then restored my 4.7.3 "prod" backup to it. Did the upgrade to 5.0.13D without PLM Unfortunately I have over 460 programs - about half - that need fixing. Mostly, it seems, because of need to move to new Nodelink. This could take some time. Am really hoping I'll be able to leverage the "replace all" functionality.
johnnyt Posted May 11, 2019 Author Posted May 11, 2019 Looking into the programs that ended up "Not Saved" after an upgrade from 4.7.3 to 5.0.13D I can't tell what the problem is for a great many of them, including very simple ones like turning a (Insteon) device off/on at a certain time, like this one: 1-Scheduled - Heated Mat OFF - [ID 02AB][Parent 01E4] If Time is 1:30:00AM on 2017/01/01 Then Set '1-MISC (Non Lighting) / Heated Mat / Heated Mat' Off Wait 10 seconds Set '1-MISC (Non Lighting) / Heated Mat / Heated Mat' Query Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') Could it be because the device was not found at boot up as a result of running without a PLM (using the no PLM version of the firmware)? Also, is there a way - like a CLI command or holding a key down - to save just one or a few specific program(s) at a time? The Save button saves them all and I'd like to only save them as I fix them and leave the others I haven't fixed in their easy-to-find "Not Saved" status. If not, is there an alternative to making a list of every one of them on a piece of paper (over 460 in my case) to be able to keep track of what's done and what's left? Any info would be appreciated.
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