New house, more choices.

[paulbates]

I've had good luck with PLMs as well. If starting over in a new house and using Insteon, the I would do these things

• Have a whole house power conditioner installed in the panel. They cost ~$125 + installation. I would do this with any PLC technology; its an insurance policy for any/all electronics.
   
• If you can find one, also install a phase coupler. The Insteon signalinc wired coupler is no longer available, but this is the one I would pick today

I agree that a lot of people have reported problems in "the thread" and that there have been regular requests for help here that get debugged as a broken plm. At the same time, there are people that don't have problems, and chances are that they don't report in that they are working. We don't have real stats on the members that don't have problems or the percentage of each. 

Paul

[larryllix]

31 minutes ago, mwester said:

I'm laughing myself silly, larrylix!      Seriously, you're trying now to tell us that everyone who suffers from the PLM failure problem has been throwing their PLMs against the wall, dropping them in pails of water, putting them in freezers and ovens, and/or has unusual electrical noise on their power lines?  I think we can safely rule out all of those issues, with the only possible point-of-argument being what one would consider to be "unusual" electrical noise.  I'd maintain that if the problem is the quality of power (which I don't believe for an instant - see below), then given the number of folks experiencing the issue, it's far more likely that those who do NOT have a failure are the ones with "unusual" power.

Now the issue is, as has been CLEARLY identified by others and documented in the lengthy PLM repair thread, that Insteon has used the wrong type of capacitors in the PLM (and in the hub, for that matter) -- the capacitors used are not designed for high-frequency switching power-supply use, and fail as one would expect them to fail when  used in an application for which they were not designed.  So, I respectfully reject both your and lilyoyo1's theories that it's about water, temperature, noise, surges, or just plain "fit" (whatever that means)!  The problem is simply that they use (present tense) the WRONG components.

BTW, I have a whole-house surge suppressor -- multiple actually (one on each panel).  Solves a lot of issues, and highly recommended -- but it doesn't solve this problem.

I think you will find I didn't post any of those gross exaggerations to support your arguments. We don't know what people have done with their PLMs inside closed closets and unvented cabinets.

 

 

[mwester]

Ok, whatever.  Go ahead and ignore the capacitor issue, all you Insteon apologists!     My opinion is that there's far too much evidence that this is a real issue, and one that needs to be considered when equipping someone else's house with an ISY...   But I stand corrected: as long as the OP handles the PLM with care, ensures that it has nice clean power, and ensures that the new house is "a good fit", then there'll be no problem, I'm sure.

 

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, mwester said:

Your implication is that all those who've been suffering from the "two-years-and-dead" PLM problem should believe that the issue IS THAT THEIR HOME IS NOT A GOOD FIT for Insteon??!!   And you base this on the fact that you, one individual, haven't experienced this problem???

I've re-read your post several times, but I just can't parse that sentence any other way.  Perhaps you can clarify what you really mean?

I'm not saying that. My response was specifically towards how you came across. Your statement (as well as other statements from you with your knocks)comes across as saying everyone's plm will fail no matter what in x amount of time in addition to other issues. 

Just because you interpret my statement one way doesn't change the validity of it. A home can have issues with Insteon just as well as a home can have issues with zwave.  

[lilyoyo1]

4 minutes ago, mwester said:

Ok, whatever.  Go ahead and ignore the capacitor issue, all you Insteon apologists!     My opinion is that there's far too much evidence that this is a real issue, and one that needs to be considered when equipping someone else's house with an ISY...   But I stand corrected: as long as the OP handles the PLM with care, ensures that it has nice clean power, and ensures that the new house is "a good fit", then there'll be no problem, I'm sure.

 

We get it, you had a bad experience with Insteon. Obviously the op has not nor have many on here. It is well known that people will voice their complaints much faster than compliments. 

That's not to say issues haven't plagued some users. It's obvious that it has. However there are many out there with great running systems. While I speak for myself (I'm sure many others would concur), I'd rather buy a new plm every 3 years and have light turn on/off in sync vs zwave popcorn effect

[asbril]

13 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

We get it, you had a bad experience with Insteon. Obviously the op has not nor have many on here. It is well known that people will voice their complaints much faster than compliments. 

That's not to say issues haven't plagued some users. It's obvious that it has. However there are many out there with great running systems. While I speak for myself (I'm sure many others would concur), I'd rather buy a new plm every 3 years and have light turn on/off in sync vs zwave popcorn effect

I have learned my lesson that the Insteon vs Zwave is a painful debate. Some like it hot, others like it cold. When someone asks about the options for a new home, he/she should be given a choice between (or a combination of) the various technologies. Some arguments are factual, other arguments are more emotional or based on one's comfort level,.

[larryllix]

26 minutes ago, asbril said:

I have learned my lesson that the Insteon vs Zwave is a painful debate. Some like it hot, others like it cold. When someone asks about the options for a new home, he/she should be given a choice between (or a combination of) the various technologies. Some arguments are factual, other arguments are more emotional or based on one's comfort level,.

Decent Zwave is very new yet. Time will tell. I have considered some Zwave migration but I have never had a problem with an Insteon device that connects to AC yet. Battery devices? A few but most were DOA. 
Wait! Not completely  true I have an iRLinc that had it's iR wired backwards and has never worked with ISY. Would have cost me more to return to SH than it's worth.

At least ISY has diversified to support those two and more. My Ethernet devices are starting to take over anyway.  I bought another 10 bulbs to add to my 14 previous units. You can't beat the $10-$14 CAD price. The MiLights and Philips Hue garbage may go out due to Hubs required.

Edited February 25, 2019 by larryllix

[TrojanHorse]

I've had good luck with PLMs as well. If starting over in a new house and using Insteon, the I would do these things

• Have a whole house power conditioner installed in the panel. They cost ~$125 + installation. I would do this with any PLC technology; its an insurance policy for any/all electronics.
   
• If you can find one, also install a phase coupler. The Insteon signalinc wired coupler is no longer available, but this is the one I would pick today

I agree that a lot of people have reported problems in "the thread" and that there have been regular requests for help here that get debugged as a broken plm. At the same time, there are people that don't have problems, and chances are that they don't report in that they are working. We don't have real stats on the members that don't have problems or the percentage of each. 
Paul

Paul,

Can you please suggest a whole house power conditioner model and/or specs to look for? I have a nice surge protector but would be interested in the conditioner.

Thanks




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[paulbates]

13 minutes ago, TrojanHorse said:

Paul,

Can you please suggest a whole house power conditioner model and/or specs to look for? I have a nice surge protector but would be interested in the conditioner.

Thanks

 

 

I have the distant ancestor of this one.  I put mine in in the 2002 time frame, it has 2 LEDs lights instead of one, but same package and idea. 

Edit: Mine is a surge protector... that's what I meant. The key feature is managing surges.

Paul

Edited February 25, 2019 by paulbates

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

I have learned my lesson that the Insteon vs Zwave is a painful debate. Some like it hot, others like it cold. When someone asks about the options for a new home, he/she should be given a choice between (or a combination of) the various technologies. Some arguments are factual, other arguments are more emotional or based on one's comfort level,.

I agree that using the isy gives a person options that they should know about. Once mentioned, the pros and cons should be discussed/debated. I personally don't take issue with debating the merits of either system. It trips me out though when persons act as if one is better simply due to a bad experience without making the op aware of the shortfalls of another system they push them towards. 

[Scottmichaelj]

We get it, you had a bad experience with Insteon. Obviously the op has not nor have many on here. It is well known that people will voice their complaints much faster than compliments. 
That's not to say issues haven't plagued some users. It's obvious that it has. However there are many out there with great running systems. While I speak for myself (I'm sure many others would concur), I'd rather buy a new plm every 3 years and have light turn on/off in sync vs zwave popcorn effect

Insteon has the “popcorn effect” too. I have it in my home. Ramp rates help some but with larger homes like mine with an open floor plan it’s noticeable.

Paul,

Can you please suggest a whole house power conditioner model and/or specs to look for? I have a nice surge protector but would be interested in the conditioner.

Thanks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have used this one personally and have recommended it to many customers.

Leviton 51120-1 Panel Protector, 120/240-Volt

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00081K55Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_cQ2CCbS15B7A0

[lilyoyo1]

12 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Insteon has the “popcorn effect” too. I have it in my home. Ramp rates help some but with larger homes like mine with an open floor plan it’s noticeable

 

The popcorn effect with zwave is different than how different bulbs (namely led) respond to dimming/ramping which is what you're referring

When the popcorn effect is mentioned it's each device turning on 1 at a time without rhyme or reason vs simultaneously.  

[Ajax]

Ok so still leaning towards insteon just bc of familiarity. My only concern is that Menards discontinued carrying them and they don't seem to coming out with anything new. But reading the news etc seem like they are sticking around. Thoughts?  Does anyone have a contact for a good sale?

[lilyoyo1]

15 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Ok so still leaning towards insteon just bc of familiarity. My only concern is that Menards discontinued carrying them and they don't seem to coming out with anything new. But reading the news etc seem like they are sticking around. Thoughts?  Does anyone have a contact for a good sale?

When do you need the switches by? Smarthome's big sales are usually around major holidays

[Bumbershoot]

5 hours ago, paulbates said:

If you can find one, also install a phase coupler. The Insteon signalinc wired coupler is no longer available, but this is the one I would pick today

At present, I'm very happy with my Insteon network -- it responds quickly and reliably.  What I'm hoping for is long-term viability.  Reading the description of this phase coupler makes me think that if my Insteon mesh degrades over time ( --why is everything like that-- ) this device will help reduce signal attenuation/degradation.

<unfair questions>
Gazing a few years into the future, what would a phase coupler provide that my SwitchLincs, OutletLincs, and ApplianceLincs don't already provide?  Long term reliability?  Will the quality of the Insteon mesh degrade, after years of service, without these?  I kind of expect that the incremental introduction of noise into the network will eventually overwhelm it, though I haven't seen any sign of it yet.  Could a dedicated phase coupler help overcome that?  Is degradation of the Insteon mesh a problem?
</unfair questions>

BTW - I just swapped out a 3 year old PLM as a simple maintenance practice - AFIK it was still working perfectly.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Bumbershoot

[lilyoyo1]

52 minutes ago, Bumbershoot said:

At present, I'm very happy with my Insteon network -- it responds quickly and reliably.  What I'm hoping for is long-term viability.  Reading the description of this phase coupler makes me think that if my Insteon mesh degrades over time ( --why is everything like that-- ) this device will help reduce signal attenuation/degradation.

<unfair questions>
Gazing a few years into the future, what would a phase coupler provide that my SwitchLincs, OutletLincs, and ApplianceLincs don't already provide?  Long term reliability?  Will the quality of the Insteon mesh degrade, after years of service, without these?  I kind of expect that the incremental introduction of noise into the network will eventually overwhelm it, though I haven't seen any sign of it yet.  Could a dedicated phase coupler help overcome that?  Is degradation of the Insteon mesh a problem?
</unfair questions>

BTW - I just swapped out a 3 year old PLM as a simple maintenance practice - AFIK it was still working perfectly.

With a house full of dual band devices, I highly doubt a phase coupler can do what standard insteon devices aren't already doing. Since all insteon devices broadcasts it's messages instead of using routing tables any degredation (if there was some) would be irrelevant since the signal would be repeated by another anyway. 

[hum099]

18 hours ago, palayman said:

I am also building a new house and have been considering the same questions.

Decided to go with Insteon for all switches and dimmers (2477S/2477D). Have a lot of success with them in previous homes. Decision was made easy by a half price sale at Christmas time. With about 100 devices it was a considerable saving!

Have used a number of 6 button switches in the past but have no plan for these in the new house.  Find that we both pretty well exclusively use Google Home voice commands and the buttons don't get pushed very often. Plan is to have at least one google home device, probably the home hub, in each room.

Have not had much success with the Insteon Ceiling fan controller.  Had problems with the light flashing intermittently and replace with an inline module. Also find we don't change fan speeds often (never) and decided to got with 2477S/2477D combos for all fans - about 20.

Found I don't use dimmers in hallways or the basement or garage so they are all 2477S.

Still haven't settled on duplex outlets. Have recently added Z-Wave devices on my sump pump and water heater.  Seems to work well and I like the power monitoring.  Don't have a concern over synchronization with Insteon lights.

Also still considering Motion Sensors.  I tried a few of the original Insteon devices and had trouble programming.  Should have consulted this forum a long time ago.  However, I don't like lights that turn on/off when I enter/leave a room and don't want to spend my life tweaking programs to stop them from waking wife in the middle of the night when I use the bathroom. With LED lights using so little power I tend to leave the lights on all night if necessary and my cameras do I a good job without them anyways.

Maybe someone can convince me to use motion sensors with a killer app?

Have also started using polyglot to integrate Wireless Tags (temp and water montior - house, fridge, freezer, sumps), alarm (DCS) and Door lock (Schlage Sense).

Still need to investigate pool equipment integration (recommendation needed!) and appliance monitoring (Thermador anyone?).

Not sure how old you parents are, but I'm over 60 and have been doing all this without too much effort. I'm sure you parents will like whatever solution you chose.

Paul

 

 

I noticed that you are using polygot with the schlage sense. I have been looking for a way to do this. Can you please share how you integrated it.

[paulbates]

4 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

At present, I'm very happy with my Insteon network -- it responds quickly and reliably.  What I'm hoping for is long-term viability.  Reading the description of this phase coupler makes me think that if my Insteon mesh degrades over time ( --why is everything like that-- ) this device will help reduce signal attenuation/degradation.

<unfair questions>
Gazing a few years into the future, what would a phase coupler provide that my SwitchLincs, OutletLincs, and ApplianceLincs don't already provide?  Long term reliability?  Will the quality of the Insteon mesh degrade, after years of service, without these?  I kind of expect that the incremental introduction of noise into the network will eventually overwhelm it, though I haven't seen any sign of it yet.  Could a dedicated phase coupler help overcome that?  Is degradation of the Insteon mesh a problem?
</unfair questions>

BTW - I just swapped out a 3 year old PLM as a simple maintenance practice - AFIK it was still working perfectly.

I’d have to dig out the doc later this week when I’m back home, but I’d did a before and after “throwing the breakers”  view of device hops using Mark Sandler’s homeseer Insteon  plug-in when installing the Insteon signalinc in my panel. It made a large, measureable difference that I can show. Mark’s plugin has a device by device signal performance and hops consumed report that I ran several times before and after turning it on.

Rf bridging consumes hops, while the signalinc passively puts all powerline devices as PL neighbors. I don’t see it as a longevity play, just another way to strengthen the network. Having to work in the panel makes it a pain to install

Paul

[palayman]

2 hours ago, hum099 said:

I noticed that you are using polygot with the schlage sense.

My bad.  Should have said myQ  using polyglot.  Schlage Sense is integrated directly into Google Home.

Paul

[Ajax]

10 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

When do you need the switches by? Smarthome's big sales are usually around major holidays

I would guess about 5 weeks or so.

[Bumbershoot]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

With a house full of dual band devices, I highly doubt a phase coupler can do what standard insteon devices aren't already doing.

That's my initial thought as well.

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Since all insteon devices broadcasts it's messages instead of using routing tables any degredation (if there was some) would be irrelevant since the signal would be repeated by another anyway.

This also makes sense.  Powerline noise might bring down a mesh fairly quickly if these devices weren't designed to have immediate RF/PL communications with their peers. 

What I'm hoping for with a phase coupler is to buffer against the analog of what people see happening with their PLMs; a degradation over time -- as devices begin to weaken and fail, noise (both PL and RF) increases, and the mesh begins to collapse.

 Maybe the question I'm asking is wrong: if PL/RF noise is managed, the mesh should stay as robust as ever if individual devices are swapped out as they begin to fail?  This network was essentially built all at once -- providing for adequate maintenance and replacement parts, should it last indefinitely?

We're becoming less eager for wholesale technology swaps in this house (not getting younger), though I hope to be able to swap out individual devices for years to come.

Thanks.

[Bumbershoot]

3 hours ago, paulbates said:

It made a large, measureable difference that I can show

That is interesting.  I'll take you at your word.

3 hours ago, paulbates said:

I don’t see it as a longevity play, just another way to strengthen the network.

I'm neither an electrician nor an engineer (so I can't reason a technical answer to this), but wouldn't signal robustness somehow enhance mesh durability?  I would hope that a passive device like a phase coupler could be counted on for decades of service?  I do have surge protection in the panel.

3 hours ago, paulbates said:

Having to work in the panel makes it a pain to install

I don't personally touch the panel.  I do maintain a small budget for electricians, however.

Thanks very much.  I may get one of these.

[larryllix]

8 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

<snippage>

Since all insteon devices broadcasts it's messages instead of using routing tables any degredation (if there was some) would be irrelevant since the signal would be repeated by another anyway. 

I don't believe the background for this is understood by many. Insteon is not just a dual-band mesh network, it is a dual-band simultaneously repeating mesh network.

This means, when you send a signal....all your Insteon devices repeat that message simultaneously like a super-powered transmitter. Any noise can easily be drowned out by this Insteon techique.

I believe Insteon to be the only protocol to do this.  It requires the usage of the AC powerline signal to synchronise all devices. Radio frequency only devices (like Zwave and UPB) cannot perform this feature as they cannot synchronise easily. Of course this can make Insteon a little slower than some other protocols.

Edited February 25, 2019 by larryllix

[Scottmichaelj]

The popcorn effect with zwave is different than how different bulbs (namely led) respond to dimming/ramping which is what you're referring
When the popcorn effect is mentioned it's each device turning on 1 at a time without rhyme or reason vs simultaneously.  

I was not referring to zwave, Insteon has this too. Your an installer so you know regardless if its a Insteon or ZWave scene you get a popcorn effect. The only protocol that I found that works 100% is Lutron RadioRa2 which is not DIY or cheap. I have Insteon installed in my home right now with filters, phase coupler, whole home surge and I have no communication or plm issues, but the “popcorn effect” does also happen with Insteon.

Within the next couple months I am removing my Insteon devices and going with Lutron RadioRa2. Lutron Select and Caseta also don’t have this issue and are cheaper, DIY and work in smaller installs.

[Scottmichaelj]

At present, I'm very happy with my Insteon network -- it responds quickly and reliably.  What I'm hoping for is long-term viability.  Reading the description of this phase coupler makes me think that if my Insteon mesh degrades over time ( --why is everything like that-- ) this device will help reduce signal attenuation/degradation.

Gazing a few years into the future, what would a phase coupler provide that my SwitchLincs, OutletLincs, and ApplianceLincs don't already provide?  Long term reliability?  Will the quality of the Insteon mesh degrade, after years of service, without these?  I kind of expect that the incremental introduction of noise into the network will eventually overwhelm it, though I haven't seen any sign of it yet.  Could a dedicated phase coupler help overcome that?  Is degradation of the Insteon mesh a problem?
questions>
BTW - I just swapped out a 3 year old PLM as a simple maintenance practice - AFIK it was still working perfectly.

With a house full of dual band devices, I highly doubt a phase coupler can do what standard insteon devices aren't already doing. Since all insteon devices broadcasts it's messages instead of using routing tables any degredation (if there was some) would be irrelevant since the signal would be repeated by another anyway. 

I disagree with@lilyoyo1 about the phase coupler. I recently installed Insteon on a customers home outside Seattle with dual band devices, but his basement was having issues (3 exterior walls were concrete). He had a phase coupler and a whole home surge installed and now his system is rock solid. The house was 3-stories and 2300 sq ft, so nothing huge but there was an issue that a phase coupler resolved. I can’t say with certainty when a home would need one, but I have seen it help more times than not.