New house, more choices.

[palayman]

25 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

I was not referring to zwave, Insteon has this too. Your an installer so you know regardless if its a Insteon or ZWave scene you get a popcorn effect. The only protocol that I found that works 100% is Lutron RadioRa2 which is not DIY or cheap. I have Insteon installed in my home right now with filters, phase coupler, whole home surge and I have no communication or plm issues, but the “popcorn effect” does also happen with Insteon.

Within the next couple months I am removing my Insteon devices and going with Lutron RadioRa2. Lutron Select and Caseta also don’t have this issue and are cheaper, DIY and work in smaller installs.

 

Are you saying no popcorn with RadioRa2?  Is this true if you need to transmit more that 30' and need to install one (or more) repeaters? Sorry, no idea how the repeaters are connected.

Paul

[larryllix]

Insteon has a Scene style operation in it's protocol. 

With Insteon Scene protocol commands, all Insteon devices involved get operated at the same time. There should be no individual responses other than protocol delays but I doubt you can see that.

When I operate 30 Insteon devices at the same time in a scene and then turn them off again I see no delays. If there were delays cycling them this fast some would get behind or not operate.

[Scottmichaelj]

19 minutes ago, palayman said:

Are you saying no popcorn with RadioRa2?  Is this true if you need to transmit more that 30' and need to install one (or more) repeaters? Sorry, no idea how the repeaters are connected.

Paul

That is correct. Lutron has some proprietary "magic" that stops the "popcorn" effect from happening. If you do some research elsewhere you will find many posts about this. Also Lutron shades will open "in sync" of each other rather than Hunter Douglas Powerviews even if they are grouped as one. What I have found is it all comes down to the communication path for these devices. Since Insteon and ZWave jump to each other and communicate via powerline/rf the devices are not getting the signal at the same time. The "magic" in Lutron is your sending all the commands to the devices at the same time via RF and when you program the Lutron main hub (from what I can tell) it can sense the time needed for the device to respond back and automatically calibrates for this. Don't mean to take this off topic but if I was doing a new home, depending on the size and budget I would go with Lutron Radio RA2 for larger home. For a smaller install Caseta or Select may work. I spoke with @xKing last August about possibly supplying him with a small Lutron RadioRA2 system so that he and I could create a NodeServer for Lutron. Michel also liked this idea and I think it would be a great "addon" for the ISY going forward to be compatible with more devices. I just haven't had time to circle back around to @XKing to move forward.

[Scottmichaelj]

10 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Insteon has a Scene style operation in it's protocol. 

With Insteon Scene protocol commands, all Insteon devices involved get operated at the same time. There should be no individual responses other than protocol delays but I doubt you can see that.

When I operate 30 Insteon devices at the same time in a scene and then turn them off again I see no delays. If there were delays cycling them this fast some would get behind or not operate.

@larryllix I can easily take and post a video from my home where Insteon has the "popcorn effect" It happens everyday for my "Sunset Scene". Not sure if its the size of the house or the scene.

[simplextech]

2 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

For a smaller install Caseta or Select may work. I spoke with @xKing last August about possibly supplying him with a small Lutron RadioRA2 system so that he and I could create a NodeServer for Lutron. Michel also liked this idea and I think it would be a great "addon" for the ISY going forward to be compatible with more devices. I just haven't had time to circle back around to @XKing to move forward.

I have also thought about a NodeServer for Lutron.  The Caseta Pro, RA2 Select and RA2 share the same integration interface which makes the development easier to support the primary systems.  I've not worked with a QS system but I believe it still shares the same interface.

[Scottmichaelj]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I have also thought about a NodeServer for Lutron.  The Caseta Pro, RA2 Select and RA2 share the same integration interface which makes the development easier to support the primary systems.  I've not worked with a QS system but I believe it still shares the same interface.

A business colleague of mine has access to QS and I think your right the only difference is the size of the system (and access to a couple other devices). I am sure I could get him to test or supply me with the required devices if need be. Most installers don't go out and do the QS Homeworks due to the even "higher" cost of the system, plus would that installer really be putting in a ISY too? I think Caseta Pro, RA2 Select and RA2 would be sufficient.

[palayman]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

That is correct. Lutron has some proprietary "magic" that stops the "popcorn" effect from happening. If you do some research elsewhere you will find many posts about this. Also Lutron shades will open "in sync" of each other rather than Hunter Douglas Powerviews even if they are grouped as one. What I have found is it all comes down to the communication path for these devices. Since Insteon and ZWave jump to each other and communicate via powerline/rf the devices are not getting the signal at the same time. The "magic" in Lutron is your sending all the commands to the devices at the same time via RF and when you program the Lutron main hub (from what I can tell) it can sense the time needed for the device to respond back and automatically calibrates for this. Don't mean to take this off topic but if I was doing a new home, depending on the size and budget I would go with Lutron Radio RA2 for larger home. For a smaller install Caseta or Select may work. I spoke with @xKing last August about possibly supplying him with a small Lutron RadioRA2 system so that he and I could create a NodeServer for Lutron. Michel also liked this idea and I think it would be a great "addon" for the ISY going forward to be compatible with more devices. I just haven't had time to circle back around to @XKing to move forward.

Thanks for the explanation. Must be some kind of delay calibration for each device. WIll have to do some more digging.

Not sure that I can justify the additional cost (just the 100 or so dimmers would be $13,000+ vs $2,500 for insteon) to get rid of the popcorn. Actually, I don't  notice it much.  I have my plm at the panel and have a phase coupler right next to it so I think there aren't too many hops going on. Some day I'll pull  out a scope and see if I'm right.

Paul

[Bumbershoot]

1 hour ago, Scottmichaelj said:

I disagree with@lilyoyo1 about the phase coupler. I recently installed Insteon on a customers home outside Seattle with dual band devices, but his basement was having issues (3 exterior walls were concrete). He had a phase coupler and a whole home surge installed and now his system is rock solid. The house was 3-stories and 2300 sq ft, so nothing huge but there was an issue that a phase coupler resolved. I can’t say with certainty when a home would need one, but I have seen it help more times than not.

Thanks, that's a useful observation.  Can you recall what device you had installed (or maybe provide a link)?

[lilyoyo1]

4 hours ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

I was not referring to zwave, Insteon has this too. Your an installer so you know regardless if its a Insteon or ZWave scene you get a popcorn effect. The only protocol that I found that works 100% is Lutron RadioRa2 which is not DIY or cheap. I have Insteon installed in my home right now with filters, phase coupler, whole home surge and I have no communication or plm issues, but the “popcorn effect” does also happen with Insteon.

Within the next couple months I am removing my Insteon devices and going with Lutron RadioRa2. Lutron Select and Caseta also don’t have this issue and are cheaper, DIY and work in smaller installs.

 

I'm speaking about devices themselves  specifically. Not how a load itself behaves. Popcorn describes a very specific occurance which is not what you are describing. With you being an installer you should know that as well. Put 5 insteon light switches into a scene together without a load and all will work simultaneously. Do the same with zwave and each device will turn on 1 at a time in no particular order.

How a load (led bulbs for the most part) responds cannot be helped for the most part regardless of technology used. Yes, even with lutron this happens at times. But then again you're comparing technology that costs 5 times that of insteon and zwave. I would expect it to happen at a lesser extent

[Scottmichaelj]

Just now, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm speaking about devices themselves  specifically. Not how a load itself behaves. Popcorn describes a very specific occurance which is not what you are describing. With you being an installer you should know that as well. Put 5 insteon light switches into a scene together without a load and all will work simultaneously. Do the same with zwave and each device will turn on 1 at a time in no particular order.

How a load (led bulbs for the most part) responds cannot be helped for the most part regardless of technology used

For the phase coupler I been using the...

Leviton 39A00-1 Phase Coupler

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/39a00-1

For the electrical panel, Smarthome tech support years back recommended and preferred the...

Leviton 51120-1 Panel Protector, 120/240-Volt

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00081K55Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_cQ2CCbS15B7A0

Both items have given me solid results.

[simplextech]

5 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

For the phase coupler I been using the...

Leviton 39A00-1 Phase Coupler

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/39a00-1

For the electrical panel, Smarthome tech support years back recommended and preferred the...

Leviton 51120-1 Panel Protector, 120/240-Volt

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00081K55Q/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_cQ2CCbS15B7A0

Both items have given me solid results.

The Phase Coupler link is great.  I was looking at SmartHome but the hard wired one they used to carry is now discontinued?  Or maybe just out of stock for a long time?

[lilyoyo1]

6 hours ago, Bumbershoot said:

That's my initial thought as well.

This also makes sense.  Powerline noise might bring down a mesh fairly quickly if these devices weren't designed to have immediate RF/PL communications with their peers. 

What I'm hoping for with a phase coupler is to buffer against the analog of what people see happening with their PLMs; a degradation over time -- as devices begin to weaken and fail, noise (both PL and RF) increases, and the mesh begins to collapse.

 Maybe the question I'm asking is wrong: if PL/RF noise is managed, the mesh should stay as robust as ever if individual devices are swapped out as they begin to fail?  This network was essentially built all at once -- providing for adequate maintenance and replacement parts, should it last indefinitely?

We're becoming less eager for wholesale technology swaps in this house (not getting younger), though I hope to be able to swap out individual devices for years to come.

Thanks.

The plm going bad is a different story. This is especially so since everything with the controller starts there. Since links are stored inside individual devices, you can get away with the plm going bad for standard control. Anything your controller handles would be affected though. 

Any system degradation or swapping of individual devices should not cause any issues since all devices repeat. 1 loss should not take out your entire system. Obviously there can be outliers which can impact things but for the most part you should be ok.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, simplextech said:

The Phase Coupler link is great.  I was looking at SmartHome but the hard wired one they used to carry is now discontinued?  Or maybe just out of stock for a long time?

They discontinued it unfortunately. I loved that little thing. I tried to talk them out of doing it but was unsuccessful

[palayman]

5 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Leviton 51120-1 Panel Protector, 120/240-Volt

I started using an Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA

https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ultimate-Protection-Length-Height/dp/B01AQAKRSS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1551131394&sr=8-1&keywords=EATON+CHSPT2ULTRA

after reading

https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/10/whats-the-best-whole-house-surge-protection/

The Leviton, although good, does not protect against L-G and N-G faults among other things.

Paul

 

[Scottmichaelj]

3 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I'm speaking about devices themselves  specifically. Not how a load itself behaves. Popcorn describes a very specific occurance which is not what you are describing. With you being an installer you should know that as well. Put 5 insteon light switches into a scene together without a load and all will work simultaneously. Do the same with zwave and each device will turn on 1 at a time in no particular order.

How a load (led bulbs for the most part) responds cannot be helped for the most part regardless of technology used

I may agree with you that IF there were multiple Insteon devices are on the same circuit the COULD turn on at the same time, however I am not going to get into the semantics with you. In the real world Insteon with scenes can have a popcorn effect. If you like your welcome to come over to my place and see for yourself. Not all devices (loads) for a scene are on the same circuit therefore the popcorn effect can be seen. Lutron does not have this, and I am not trying to sell anyone to Lutron as its an installer only product and expensive. I am just saying that you can get the popcorn effect on ZWAVE AND INSTEON.

[Scottmichaelj]

21 minutes ago, palayman said:

I started using an Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA

https://www.amazon.com/CHSPT2ULTRA-Ultimate-Protection-Length-Height/dp/B01AQAKRSS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1551131394&sr=8-1&keywords=EATON+CHSPT2ULTRA

after reading

https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/2014/10/whats-the-best-whole-house-surge-protection/

The Leviton, although good, does not protect against L-G and N-G faults among other things.

Paul

 

Thanks for the link and info. Things constantly are changing and sometimes when you use something that has been working, you never think about changing until it breaks. Quick read I would say the Eaton looks nice plus due to the extra protections and as of this post, it is half the cost of the Leviton.

[lilyoyo1]

13 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

I may agree with you that IF there were multiple Insteon devices are on the same circuit the COULD turn on at the same time, however I am not going to get into the semantics with you. In the real world Insteon with scenes can have a popcorn effect. If you like your welcome to come over to my place and see for yourself. Not all devices (loads) for a scene are on the same circuit therefore the popcorn effect can be seen. Lutron does not have this, and I am not trying to sell anyone to Lutron as its an installer only product and expensive. I am just saying that you can get the popcorn effect on ZWAVE AND INSTEON.

If you say so. Call it what you want. I stand by what I say as what you are describing has more to do with the load itself rather than the devices. What you are experiencing happens with all technologies including lutrons (though not to the same degree with bulbs on their compatibility lists)

[palayman]

6 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If you say so. Call it what you want. I stand by what I say as what you are describing has more to do with the load itself rather than the devices. What you are experiencing happens with all technologies including lutrons (though not to the same degree with bulbs on their compatibility lists)

Perhaps. Even if several lights are in the same scene that could still take 3 message periods for insteon signal to propagate. Each message period is 6 zero crossings (5 +1 blank). This means worst case 2 message periods between first and last light coming on or about 10 ms.  Since most people can sense a frame rate of 30 fps and some can sense 120 fps, this time delay is very perceptible. If you don't use scenes, it only gets worse. A slow ramp will make it seem better.

To bad the insteon designers didn't keep track of hops and just have everything trigger at the end of the last possible message period.

[lilyoyo1]

5 minutes ago, palayman said:

Perhaps. Even if several lights are in the same scene that could still take 4 message periods for insteon signal to propagate. Each message period is 4 zero crossings (3 +1 blank). This means worst case 3 message periods between first and last light coming on or about 10 ms.  Since most people can sense a frame rate of 30 fps and some can sense 120 fps, this time delay is very perceptible. If you don't use scenes, it only gets worse. 

Scenes is the only way to achieve that. Any other way of messaging means you are sending the signal 1 at a time. If all devices are working optimally they would respond at the very first command and would not need subsequent messages. Granted the farther away a device was, the longer it would take the signal to reach. In the end it gets down to nitpicking an argument

[simplextech]

Hamburger, cheeseburger but I want a Hot Dog!

With Onions....

[Scottmichaelj]

Granted the farther away a device was, the longer it would take the signal to reach. In the end it gets down to nitpicking an argument

Which is to our point, it can cause devices not to respond at the same time in a real life situation. Call it what you will, I’ll call it

[lilyoyo1]

43 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

 

Which is to our point, it can cause devices not to respond at the same time in a real life situation. Call it what you will, I’ll call it

 

You're splitting hairs with your argument. The same things stands with any system. There's a huge difference between different factors causing something to happen vs how any particular technology works.

This isn't about fine detail which effects everything in life. Im not going to start making long winded posts to cover every detail because someone feels the needs to cover every minute. Detail on any given topic. 

With all things being equal (for those without issues) insteon devices generally do not turn on 1 at a time while zwave devices will always turn on in some erratic way.

 

[larryllix]

Wait! I can see how this popcorn effect could happen. I doubt the Insteon delay of hops are being seen though, given the usage of any ramp on rate.. 
Having said that, most can see the speed of light delay on a long street full of street lights that all turn on with the same circuit.  

If a scene uses a ramp on rate,with  different LED bulb brands and LED lights trips have different power supplies and different lux linearity curves. I have a fine example in my dining room chandelier. One of the five Cree bulbs went bad and I returned it to HD (The Borg), only to have a newer style Cree bulb handed to me as a replacement. At 100% all bubs look the same but anything below 60% that bulbs is much brighter than the other four. (lesson there? Always buy an extra bulb and mark the spare for multiple bulbs visible from each other)

Now apply this to a slow and long ramping up voltage coming from various Insteon dimmers. They may all put out the same average voltage, at the same time, but the difference in bulb linearities may make them look like the popcorn effect.

 

@ScottmichaeljAs an experiment I would be interested to have you set all the devices involved (cheap popcorn bulbs you bought  ) set to fast On, and document if the effect goes away, or is reduced, or changes in any way.
I assume you have various brands of bulbs in your "popcorn" scene. Can you describe this in more detail. I find this interesting and it would be nice to know for future reference and reduction or elimination of the effect.

 

[palayman]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

If all devices are working optimally they would respond at the very first command and would not need subsequent messages.

This is why I have my PLM next the electrical panel so that the distances to devices are as evenly distributed as possible and why I have a a phase coupler so that I don't have to wait for the RF bridging to take place. As I said, I don't notice the popcorn even without adjusting ramp rates.

[paulbates]

@Bumbershoot

Here is the comparison file of 2 pages. It was here on the forum. Its a before and after turning the breakers for the signalinc on. 

Paul

 

Insteon Bridge.pdf