ISY User Manual for Motion Sensor II (2844-222)

[CPRail1]

Tjkintz,

Thank you for posting this. I've been following this thread with interest and always like to see how others do things.

That said, I don't think I'm understanding the purpose of the middle "AND" . Unless values other than 0 or 1 are possible, will that AND not always be TRUE ? And, regardless, doesn't the last AND dictate that, regardless of everything else, $Master_bath_night_light_status must be 0 for anything to happen ?

I'm wondering if you truly intended to use the variable $Master_bath_night_light_status in both AND statements or if you have an additional variable in play but accidentally not used. Or brackets in the wrong place. By my reading, you could remove the middle AND with absolutely no impact.

But it is Monday AM...

Cheers, Peter

[tjkintz]

It was intentional but maybe not necessary. More than a year ago, and therefore I can't find them anymore, I was part of some threads relating to IF/THEN/ELSE tests. I think larryllix was part of those threads. I have a background in programming and in pseudo code, I expected something like the following to work:

IF light_status is 1 THEN

<do something>

ELSE

<do something else>

I thought it was an ISY bug in that the ELSE clause would never execute if the light_status was not 1.  It was explained to me that the IF clause needs to capture all the things necessary to drive the logic. So, in pseudo code again, I would need something like:

If light_status is 1 or light_status is not 1

AND light_status  is 1

THEN 

<do something>

ELSE 

<do something  else>

I think the explanation had  something to do with state machines.  In fact, it proved to be true so I am now in the habit of putting in what seems to be unnecessary things so the ELSE clause executes. I do not know if this changed with V5 of the ISY software and it still bothers me that I have to do this but better to be safe. Does anybody know if the ISY V5 software still requires this and/or can give the explanation why it does/did?

 

[larryllix]

4 hours ago, tjkintz said:

It was intentional but maybe not necessary. More than a year ago, and therefore I can't find them anymore, I was part of some threads relating to IF/THEN/ELSE tests. I think larryllix was part of those threads. I have a background in programming and in pseudo code, I expected something like the following to work:

IF light_status is 1 THEN

<do something>

ELSE

<do something else>

I thought it was an ISY bug in that the ELSE clause would never execute if the light_status was not 1.  It was explained to me that the IF clause needs to capture all the things necessary to drive the logic. So, in pseudo code again, I would need something like:

If light_status is 1 or light_status is not 1

AND light_status  is 1

THEN 

<do something>

ELSE 

<do something  else>

I think the explanation had  something to do with state machines.  In fact, it proved to be true so I am now in the habit of putting in what seems to be unnecessary things so the ELSE clause executes. I do not know if this changed with V5 of the ISY software and it still bothers me that I have to do this but better to be safe. Does anybody know if the ISY V5 software still requires this and/or can give the explanation why it does/did?

 

Just to complicate things here

If status of SwitchLinc is On
Then turn On light
Else turn Off light
 

Functions almost the same as

If SwitchLinc is switched On
AND SwitchLinc is NOT switched Off <------ when switched off becomes NOT True
Then turn on light
Else turn off light

Except for one small point
..SwitchLinc is Switched ON/Off tells you when a finger is on the switch first depressing it.

..SwitchLinc status tells you level of the dimmer electronics no matter what changes the level.

State variables present both a status level and a changes trigger. A SwitchLinc line in a program is only True when being called by the ISY event and always False any other time (the button is not likely pressed, anyway). Status can be true or false anytime.

Hopefully my ramblings help somewhat.

 

 

[tjkintz]

 

Larryllix refreshed my memory. Using a dimmer switch as an example, there are multiple control signals; ON, OFF, DIM, etc. For the program

IF switch is switched ON then 

<do something>

Else

<do something else>

the ELSE clause will never execute because the program will only run when there is an ON control (that was all that was tested for) and that is handle by the THEN clause.

For my MS II, configured for only ON, there is only one possible control; ON. $master_bath_night_light_status is an integer variable, not a state variable, so changes in its value will not cause the program to run. The program only runs when there is an ON control and then I can test the integer variable. Therefore I was able to simplify the program to what is above.

[CPRail1]

Ok, that version does make more sense to me and looks like many of mine  

I can empathise with your logic of adding 'just in case' components as, like you, I've a programming background but still find things in the ISY, or maybe it is Insteon, that don't work as I would expect intuitively.  I honestly would not have been at all surprised to find out your original version was correct and I'd "missed a memo".

The experiences of others on these forums clear those up in many cases. Of course the MII is one of the Insteon side mysteries and this thread is a wonderful example of what can be learned through the patient experiments and experiences of others

 

[tjkintz]

Maybe off topic, my MS II that controls a scene causes log entries when there is an ON or OFF control. My MS II that controls a program does not generate any log entries when their is an ON control. I can figure out motion was sensed by seeing log entries for the lights in the bathroom scene being turned on or off but an explicit entry in the log for an ON (or OFF if that is how the sensor is configured) control would  sure make life easier and make for consistent behavior. 

[shunsader]

I'm quite new to this forum, first direct post. I've recently started a 'Motion  Sensor Project', seeing that Insteon's MS II has the ability to be plugged into something other than a battery. I plan on having perhaps 20 of these scattered through my property and home. The problem I'm having though is that apparently none of the options I check or set make any difference. Of course, I put the product in SET mode so that my ISY 994i Pro can write to it, and it indicates that it has (when I query it, it comes back the same way as I've set it), BUT, the product ALWAYS times out after 30 seconds....activity or not, and I can't seem to change the default time of 30 seconds, NOR will it Send ON Only. I'm running ISY Version 8.6.0 and UI 4.7.5.

Also, the amount of options in my ISY for this  product are SHORT relative to the screenshots I've seen with others using the product. 

I would HOPE that I don't need to upgrade to V 5.x since I have a pretty large setup, including some 100 programs and features, including over 200 switches. BUT, if that's the solution, I'm up for it.

A little help?

- Steve

[gzahar]

1 hour ago, shunsader said:

I'm quite new to this forum, first direct post. I've recently started a 'Motion  Sensor Project', seeing that Insteon's MS II has the ability to be plugged into something other than a battery. I plan on having perhaps 20 of these scattered through my property and home. The problem I'm having though is that apparently none of the options I check or set make any difference. Of course, I put the product in SET mode so that my ISY 994i Pro can write to it, and it indicates that it has (when I query it, it comes back the same way as I've set it), BUT, the product ALWAYS times out after 30 seconds....activity or not, and I can't seem to change the default time of 30 seconds, NOR will it Send ON Only. I'm running ISY Version 8.6.0 and UI 4.7.5.

Also, the amount of options in my ISY for this  product are SHORT relative to the screenshots I've seen with others using the product. 

I would HOPE that I don't need to upgrade to V 5.x since I have a pretty large setup, including some 100 programs and features, including over 200 switches. BUT, if that's the solution, I'm up for it.

A little help?

- Steve

Unless you move to 5.x you will only get the features of the MS I.  Per your screen shot, the ISY thinks it is an MS I (2842); and this is the only support for it in 4.x.

Out of curiosity, what is ISY version 8.6.0?  You should have a firmware and UI version that match.  Assuming 8.6.0 is not a firmware number?

[shunsader]

My apologies, running version 4.8.0

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, shunsader said:

My apologies, running version 4.8.0

Firmware and UI must match. Clear your Java cache

[shunsader]

LilYoyo and Michel, thanks for the information. I've upgraded to V5.0.14 (both Firmware and UI match now). I've tried removing and re-installing one of my motion sensors, and things look MUCH better. I also have the same "Options" window that others have shown in this thread. 

QUESTION: Is there some documentation as to what some of these settings do? For instance, what does the "Nodes" in the "Motion" section of the Options do? One or Two are the choices. 

 

[Papa C]

3 hours ago, shunsader said:

LilYoyo and Michel, thanks for the information. I've upgraded to V5.0.14 (both Firmware and UI match now). I've tried removing and re-installing one of my motion sensors, and things look MUCH better. I also have the same "Options" window that others have shown in this thread. 

QUESTION: Is there some documentation as to what some of these settings do? For instance, what does the "Nodes" in the "Motion" section of the Options do? One or Two are the choices. 

 

So, why did you go to 5.014?  Was going to tell you to make the jump, I did a few weeks ago to 5.016c and got to tell you, it really was painless!  As for the rest about documentation, I've been searching as well and what you're finding right here seems to be THE BEST and only documentation I've been able to find.....I've had a couple of the MS2's since they came out and now thinking there are newer versions of what I have, there for sure is newer firmware.  I tried the On only settings and seems like things just seem to work better if you do the On and Off, just letting the sensor handle it rather than programming.

[shunsader]

Papa,

Thanks for the reply. V 5.0.14 is what I've read to be stable, and in the past (going on 21 years of Insteon), stable is better than latest. I'll upgrade to the most recent, but wanted to ensure that I wasn't going to need to deal with any issues, since available time is the most difficult for me. Do you know what the "Nodes" choices in the Options are?

I believe you're right about the On/Off. I've actually dropped everything else I'm doing, and have been working on one of the motion sensors this morning. Initially I had everything running with a program, because the timeout used to be FIXED @ 30 seconds, and is why I needed to use programs. When I added the motion sensor to a Scene, it's very quick, but need to confirm that it doesn't forget about someone in the room. My tiny wife often has the lights go out on her, and it's been a big complaint. Does the "Nodes" have anything to do with multiple Motion Sensors? My kitchen has 2, and unsure how I'll be handling that. 

Also, do you or anyone else reading know what I can do with the QUERY feature? I'd like to be able to adjust the scene at a specific time of evening so that lights work differently at night. THUS, if someone double clicks on a light switch, how do I read that the lights are on FULL, so that the next time the motion sensor comes on, that it changes it from what someone FORCED with a switch? - Steve

[Bleo]

On 8/16/2020 at 9:59 AM, greazer said:

• To do something like preventing a light from coming on during the day or having it come on dim between certain hours of the evening, I DO use a program. But the program is only designed to set the light level of the scene in question. So in other words, if say you don't want a motion sensor that is directly connected to a light via a scene during the day, then here's what the program looks like:

 

On 8/16/2020 at 9:59 AM, greazer said:

• THEN you also have a program that sets the light levels for *scenes* given whatever criteria, like this: Note that this capability requires 5.x version of the ISY firmware but it does work with the original Insteon Motion sensors.

• This program, is called "Set Scenes" and is called by other programs (like the one above) depending on the criteria I'm using to set the light levels. Note that scenes can be adjusted in devices WITHOUT having to put them into write mode (waking them up, or whatever you want to call it).

First thank you for posting this! As a new user i'm looking to accomplish this same thing. My goal is to have the motion sensor in a scene with my dimmer switch for instant activation, but I only want the motion sensor to toggle the switch on from sunset to sunrise. During the day I don't want the light turning on automatically. I understand the time logic however I'm not able to decipher how you entered some of these variables. In the top screenshot for program "Basic Light Levels" with "$LightLevelBackPatio = 100" - is this an integer variable created under Programs > Variables > Integer?

For the 2nd screenshot calling the "set scene" command: I've been completely unable to replicate this syntax. I'm unable to figure out any way of inserting any of the "$lightLevel" options. Are you creating these lines with Action > Adjust Scene or some other way? I greatly appreciate any help!

[tjkintz]

The syntax in the subroutine is strange to me too, such as "In", the delay and the use of the variable. It obviously is right but I have never seen it. Awaiting that explanation, you can arguably simplify the program by a creating a program folder, specifying the conditions when the  programs in the folder can run and putting the program(s) in that folder. That is how I only have my sensor controlled programs run from sunset to sunrise. That way each program does not have to do the time check.

Edited December 14, 2020 by tjkintz

[MrBill]

TH

15 hours ago, Bleo said:

 

First thank you for posting this! As a new user i'm looking to accomplish this same thing. My goal is to have the motion sensor in a scene with my dimmer switch for instant activation, but I only want the motion sensor to toggle the switch on from sunset to sunrise. During the day I don't want the light turning on automatically. I understand the time logic however I'm not able to decipher how you entered some of these variables. In the top screenshot for program "Basic Light Levels" with "$LightLevelBackPatio = 100" - is this an integer variable created under Programs > Variables > Integer?

For the 2nd screenshot calling the "set scene" command: I've been completely unable to replicate this syntax. I'm unable to figure out any way of inserting any of the "$lightLevel" options. Are you creating these lines with Action > Adjust Scene or some other way? I greatly appreciate any help!

This is an overly complicated example using Light percents stored in variables and Adjust Scene to adjust scenes.  Do you need to changes levels in the scene?  Note that the ISY as a scene controller can be set for one set of values, yet a switch as a scene controller could have another, and the motion as a scene controller another.   

[shunsader]

TJKintz, I agree with Mr Bill. Now that I've been doing this for about 3 months, things are stable. When I upgraded my ISY firmware, a whole heap of configuration options were now available to me, including telling the motion sensor to ONLY provide an ON/OFF during the Night. If you really want to get picky, you could change the threshold light intensity to trigger a bit earlier or later. AND, since I CONTINUE TO get an email every 5 minutes during sunset/rise to see light intensity, I think you'll find that you won't need to change that default level. Currently, I have 2 different methods of manipulating lighting...

1. INSIDE, where I have the sensor be part of a scene, tell the sensor to broadcast ON and OFF signals. I set the timeout to the minimum number of minutes that I'd like to leave the light on. For bathrooms, I make this number longer so that the light doesn't go off during a 'standard' shower. (10 minutes). 

2. OUTSIDE, I make the sensor part of a SEPARATE SCENE, and tell it to turn ON ONLY, and only during the night. I set the timeout to 10 seconds, and decide myself when to turn off the lights. I have "Main Loop" that checks counters each minute to determine whether a light needs to be turned off or not. When a motion trigger (or a light switch) is turned on, I set a variable with the number of minutes I'd like the light to stay on. I also set another variable (Binary) that the light is on. (you can use a single variable for the time and whether on, but sometimes it'll miss a command, and the light will stay on all day. ONLY when I turn the light off, do I set the bLightON = 0. Why such a short timeout? Because once the motion sensor times out, if someone is still in the area, it'll trigger again. Each time I get a Motion ON command, I re-initialize the timer to the default, which is 3 minutes. I find that most of the time, I'm walking around the building, and may not come back. Thus, 3 minutes being ON is good, AND, if I come back through that area after 10 seconds, I get another 3 minutes of time. The ONLY time this method doesn't work well is if I'm standing around for awhile talking to someone. BUT, and easy fix to this is to create a quick variable called FREEZE. If Freeze = 1, then DO NOT count down the timer. AND, since I have a lot of echo devices around my home, if I'm chatting with someone, I simply say "Echo, Turn FREEZE ON", which not only sets the variable to 1, but also turns on a keypad button on a number of keypads throughout the house.

By the way, when initially testing these ( I currently have 10 motion sensors, and have another 10 ready for deployment, but too busy at the moment), I tried to control everything programmatically. DELAY was the largest problem. I could be 1/2 way into a room before the lights would go on, the same outside in the darkness. The solution was to add the sensor to a scene, and tweak how one would like to get the light to turn off. INSIDE, turning  off the light with a program was problematic. Outside, much easier if I control when to turn off. The COOL part of this project was that I used some of my coding to send me an email EACH TIME the light is turned off, how long the light was on, and a running total of how long that light's been on. I was VERY surprised to find how long our kitchen light was on each week. I would have thought it was about 1/4 of the time it was on. 

Hope this helps.

Steve

[milodorr]

@JacktheRipper, did you ever find any information about item (6) in your original post in this topic (what do the Polling Interval and Hysteresis fields in the Light section do)?  Thanks

[JacktheRipper]

Quote

did you ever find any information about item (6) in your original post in this topic (what do the Polling Interval and Hysteresis fields in the Light section do)? 

No, sir, I did not. My MS II gradually lost range to just a few feet over a period of a few months, and I ultimately removed it from my installation and did not replace it. I have followed this thread with interest, though. I do most home automation things now with Arduinos, specifically ESP32s. That way I'm in complete control of things.

Here is an excellent tutorial on how to use a HC-SR501 PIR motion sensor in a simple Arduino program. In particular, read the "Advanced Uses" section at the bottom of the tutorial for insights on how these sensors work.:

https://arduinogetstarted.com/tutorials/arduino-motion-sensor

In that advanced section, there's a good discussion on two sensor adjustment pots (range and time delay) and a jumper that controls single event vs. repeated event signal outputs from the sensors.

 

[ncoig]

On 3/24/2019 at 4:33 PM, lilyoyo1 said:

Motion sensors (as all sensors) are controllers only. They cannot be responders.

I don't mean to disagree, but I'm trying to do so without being disagreeable!

 

I have an open/close sensor (TriggerLinc v.43) on my pantry door -- I had setup a scene for the light with two members: the light, and the sensor, both as controllers.  If I left the door open and turned the light off, the sensor would change status to "off" or "closed" according to ISY.  As a result, I removed the light switch and re-added it as a responder only so that I could see from the ISY if the door was actually open or not.

 

Hopefully this helps someone if they happen upon this information.

 

-N

Edited February 28, 2021 by ncoig
Clarification

[larryllix]

On 12/19/2020 at 4:45 PM, milodorr said:

@JacktheRipper, did you ever find any information about item (6) in your original post in this topic (what do the Polling Interval and Hysteresis fields in the Light section do)?  Thanks

They are settings to poll the light sensor for night time. Note the layout of the options is not very indicative of function. UDI did a lot of guessing and hacking to make the MS II work with ISY at all.