Geddy Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 UI/Firmware 4.7.3 Products: Fanlink, 6 button keypad, and Weather module I would like help in fixing a program that I thought worked, but found a flaw that I need to fix... Situation: A bedroom gets a lot of daytime sun and runs warm. It has a ceiling fan in it that I would like to turn run on high when the outside temp exceeds 90. We usually leave it on during the summer, but I have found it to be off and it's just too warm in there late in the day for it to be off. Current program: (works for desired response) BR Fan-Summer - [ID 003D][Parent 003C] If From 10:35:00AM To 7:45:00PM (same day) And Module 'Climate' Temperature > 90 °F And ( Status 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' is Off Or Status 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' is Low ) Then Set 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' High Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') PROBLEM: If the program is triggered on, but I need to turn the fan off for any reason it won't turn off and stay off. I had to go into mobilink to disable the program to get the fan to stay off. Even though I was turning it off at the keypad (switch). Keypad has "a" = high, "b" = medium, and "c" = low and toggle on/off as the "on/off" control the light on the fan. My hope is to be able to control this with only one program, but perhaps it has to be a two step process. It's rare to really have to turn the fan off, but it is something that I find that it's not easy to do if I'm not the one trying to turn it off. Nobody else in my family has the app or admin console to be able to disable the program. Is there a simple option to add to this to make it possible to turn the fan off, but then maybe an hour later to re-trigger the program? Thanks!
lilyoyo1 Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 Create a second program If control fan is switched off Then disable fan program Wait 1 hr enable program 1
larryllix Posted September 9, 2019 Posted September 9, 2019 6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: Create a second program If control fan is switched off Then disable fan program Wait 1 hr enable program In addition, add a following line to run the program (if) in case it needs to respond to the conditions immediately, instead of waiting for a temperature change that could take hours.
Geddy Posted September 10, 2019 Author Posted September 10, 2019 Thanks for the replies.... 17 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said: Create a second program If control fan is switched off Then disable fan program Wait 1 hr enable program I figured it might be something like that. I actually went another route of disabling the primary program all together. Created a second program to call on the "IF" of the primary program with a "wait 1 hour" in the trigger. Trigger program: BR-Fan-Trigger - [ID 0042][Parent 003C] If From Sunrise + 1 hour To Sunset + 1 hour (same day) And Status 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' is Off Then Wait 1 hour Run Program 'BR-Fan-Summer' (If) Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') Hopefully this will check hourly, but might have to add repeat, but I'm not 100% comfortable with that command. Would this trigger again during the day if the fan is off and the time is between the schedule? 17 hours ago, larryllix said: In addition, add a following line to run the program (if) in case it needs to respond to the conditions immediately, instead of waiting for a temperature change that could take hours. Temp change isn't overly important. If it's over 90 outside it won't fall below 90 for quite a while. But the weather module should poll hourly anyway so I'm fine with it being off for an hour. It's rare that it would need to be off anyway, but just in case it does get turned off I just wanted a way to turn it back on to try to help keep the room more comfortable. Thanks for the replies and help!
larryllix Posted September 10, 2019 Posted September 10, 2019 Thanks for the replies.... I figured it might be something like that. I actually went another route of disabling the primary program all together. Created a second program to call on the "IF" of the primary program with a "wait 1 hour" in the trigger. Trigger program: BR-Fan-Trigger - [iD 0042][Parent 003C] If From Sunrise + 1 hour To Sunset + 1 hour (same day) And Status 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' is Off Then Wait 1 hour Run Program 'BR-Fan-Summer' (If) Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') Hopefully this will check hourly, but might have to add repeat, but I'm not 100% comfortable with that command. Would this trigger again during the day if the fan is off and the time is between the schedule? Temp change isn't overly important. If it's over 90 outside it won't fall below 90 for quite a while. But the weather module should poll hourly anyway so I'm fine with it being off for an hour. It's rare that it would need to be off anyway, but just in case it does get turned off I just wanted a way to turn it back on to try to help keep the room more comfortable. Thanks for the replies and help! Your program will only run once at sunset + 2 hours. You have no Repeat line.It also does not address your first post request. Re-enable your first program and follow lilyoyo1's suggestions. ISY is a trigger event based processing and easier to use natively instead of creating time delay looping. 1
apostolakisl Posted September 10, 2019 Posted September 10, 2019 Aside from any program issues, your physics is wrong. Ceiling fans do not cool rooms, they heat rooms. The electricity running the motor makes heat. Ceiling fans are for the purpose of creating wind chill. Wind chill only works on warm objects located in cooler environments (ie human bodies), not empty bedrooms. The fan moves the warm envelop of air that surrounds your 98 degree body away from your body so that your skin is in contact with cooler air (assuming the actual temp is less than 98). In addition, the air around your body is more humid from evaporating perspiration, and the fan moves that humid air away exposing your skin to drier air allowing for more evaporative cooling. So I would scrap the whole program, you don't want the fan running unless someone is in the room. Either turn the fan on manually when you enter the room and off when you leave, or use an occupancy detector. 1 1
oberkc Posted September 10, 2019 Posted September 10, 2019 Perhaps you could get by with a single program, but it may depend on for how long you want the fan to stay off when manually toggled...until the next temperature cycle to exceed 90?..next day?...indefinitely? Also, why do you care whether the fan is off (or on low) as a decision factor? If it is hot, turn on the fan! 1
larryllix Posted September 10, 2019 Posted September 10, 2019 @Geddy Try something like this. I always use a time out with manual overrides because people get familiar with being lazy and expect it to reset itself. BR Fan-Summer - [ID 003D][Parent 003C] If From 10:35:00AM To 7:45:00PM (same day) And Module 'Climate' Temperature > 90 °F Then Set 'Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor' High Else - No Actions - (To add one, press 'Action') BR Fan-Summer - Manual If whatever trigger or condition you want, maybe a double tap on one of the speed buttons? Then Program BR Fan_Summer disable Set Bedroom / BR Linc - Motor Off Wait 1 hour Program BR Fan_Summer enable run (if) Program BR Fan_Summer Else ----- 1
Geddy Posted September 10, 2019 Author Posted September 10, 2019 Thanks again all. Got it working the way I want with the suggestion by @lilyoyo1. As for the physics of it and why have it on...because it's in a bedroom, and even though it might not "cool" the room it greatly increases the comfort level of the room when you enter it during the day and at night to go to sleep. So that's the reason to run fans. You must not live in a hot (and humid) location or else you would run ceiling fans all the time too.
lilyoyo1 Posted September 10, 2019 Posted September 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Geddy said: Thanks again all. Got it working the way I want with the suggestion by @lilyoyo1. As for the physics of it and why have it on...because it's in a bedroom, and even though it might not "cool" the room it greatly increases the comfort level of the room when you enter it during the day and at night to go to sleep. So that's the reason to run fans. You must not live in a hot (and humid) location or else you would run ceiling fans all the time too. I do live in a hot/humid place but leave mine off until I utilize the room Edited September 10, 2019 by lilyoyo1
apostolakisl Posted September 11, 2019 Posted September 11, 2019 6 hours ago, Geddy said: Thanks again all. Got it working the way I want with the suggestion by @lilyoyo1. As for the physics of it and why have it on...because it's in a bedroom, and even though it might not "cool" the room it greatly increases the comfort level of the room when you enter it during the day and at night to go to sleep. So that's the reason to run fans. You must not live in a hot (and humid) location or else you would run ceiling fans all the time too. I guess physics is different where you live.
mwester Posted September 11, 2019 Posted September 11, 2019 Physics is certainly different in my house. Even (especially, actually) when people aren't present, the temperature stratifies... so comfort in my house is improved by running ceiling fans in several of the rooms during the times of the year when the forced air isn't running often...
apostolakisl Posted September 11, 2019 Posted September 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, mwester said: Physics is certainly different in my house. Even (especially, actually) when people aren't present, the temperature stratifies... so comfort in my house is improved by running ceiling fans in several of the rooms during the times of the year when the forced air isn't running often... It would be an odd home that running a bedroom ceiling fan would cause air to circulate beyond the room itself in any meaningful quantity. . . to say, move cooler air from a different room into that room. But even so, why would you want to move cooler air from the part of the house you are in, to a room you are not in. Considering that you have then moved the warm from the room you are not in, to the room you are in. And again, made all of the house hotter on average. If indeed your ceiling fan does draw cooler air from other parts of the house into your bedroom, then it would only be logical to run the ceiling starting shortly before you plan on going to bed (assuming you are mostly only in the room to be in bed).
larryllix Posted September 11, 2019 Posted September 11, 2019 Fans can alleviate stratification, bring cooler air, or warmer air, down, especially in very high ceiling spaces. Continuous circulation can even out temperatures found in furniture and other high thermal mass items, especially floors. Fans can also dry out beds from the sweaty bodies sleeping in the beds each night. Circulating fans would need to be turned on an hour or two before room entry. On really cold winter days I find parts of the floor can be cold, if they are restricted from heated air circulation by furniture. Something I discovered years after building my own home is the space between the floating ceiling in the basement, and the main floor surface gets no heated air circulation and the joist pockets can cause accumulation of colder air, making the main floor surface cold. Circulating air via fan helps this greatly. I suppose this is why commercial buildings use that air gap for return air. It can even eliminate raining above the ceiling tiles after months of condensation forming above the ceiling tiles. Insulation does not stop heat loss, it only slows it down. With no replacement heat, even insulated spaces will freeze eventually. Fans in proper places can alleviate some of this effect. Economy of energy must also be considered, though.
apostolakisl Posted September 11, 2019 Posted September 11, 2019 This is a bedroom ceiling fan being used for comfort in hot months, lets not confuse the subject. No bedroom ceiling fan I have ever seen does anything but move the air in the bedroom around in circles, within the bedroom. There is one reason and one reason only that a bedroom ceiling fan such as that would be a comfort item and that is because it causes windchill and aids in evaporative cooling of skin. While I suppose it could help dry out a sweaty bed, I have my doubts that a bed would be so full of sweat that in 16 hours it wouldn't dry out by itself. Maybe if you lived in a swamp with no AC. And all I have to say about that is ewwww. The fact is, the fan is going to burn about 100 watts. 100% of those 100 watts is going to end up as heat. If no one is in the room, then there is no one to feel the wind chill and the room has what amounts to a 100 watt space heater running.
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