Keypadlinc as Timer for Whole House Fan

[David_31262]

Setting up my first Keypadlinc and it's a bit confusing. What events can trigger programs and what must be controlled by a scene (the sub button lights?).

I want to use the A-D buttons to turn the fan on for different time intervals. There was an old thread that did the same thing, but the discussion was mosly around gettin the lights to work correctly (and the thread is closed so I can't ask there).  (https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/10782-keypadlinc-2487s/)

I've been trying different things and will probably get there eventually, but it's eating a lot of time. Perhaps someone can give me the basic steps.

Example, can I simply us the "A" button to fire off a program ("Turn on Fan", "Wait 2 hours", "Turn off fan", "Turn off keypad light"). Or must I use a scene to turn on the fan, then have the turn on event start the timer program? Can the scene start the timer?

I found the instructions for setting up a fanlinc, but this is different since those don't involve any program usage.

Any steps (or maybe screen shots) the community would provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

PS: Spent way too much on modules during the Labor Day sale.... Now I have to figure out what to do with them. :)

 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, David_31262 said:

Setting up my first Keypadlinc and it's a bit confusing. What events can trigger programs and what must be controlled by a scene (the sub button lights?).

I want to use the A-D buttons to turn the fan on for different time intervals. There was an old thread that did the same thing, but the discussion was mosly around gettin the lights to work correctly (and the thread is closed so I can't ask there).  (https://forum.universal-devices.com/topic/10782-keypadlinc-2487s/)

I've been trying different things and will probably get there eventually, but it's eating a lot of time. Perhaps someone can give me the basic steps.

Example, can I simply us the "A" button to fire off a program ("Turn on Fan", "Wait 2 hours", "Turn off fan", "Turn off keypad light"). Or must I use a scene to turn on the fan, then have the turn on event start the timer program? Can the scene start the timer?

I found the instructions for setting up a fanlinc, but this is different since those don't involve any program usage.

Any steps (or maybe screen shots) the community would provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

PS: Spent way too much on modules during the Labor Day sale.... Now I have to figure out what to do with them.

 

There is no right or wrong way to program the isy. You have those such as myself that prefer scenes enhanced by programs and others that prefer programs over scenes for some crazy reason @larryllix. In the end both ways work and it comes down to user preference.

I'm always hesitant to tell a newbie how to program because it doesn't help them learn the nuances to the isy. The reasons as to why a scene is used over a program and vice versa. While it may save time for you, the knowledge needed simply isn't gained. It's much better for you to try different ways post what you've come up with (once it's close just not close enough) and let others help you correct it. That method will give you a better understanding of the hows and whys long term. 

In regards to your actual questions, anything can be programed or controlled by a scene. As stated earlier it's user preference and there is no right or wrong way: only does it work!!?? You can activate a program for a scene based off the controlling device being turned on or off. 

My approach to programming and method I use is to start with my overall goal. What am I trying to accomplish??? How does that tie into other things I'm doing today and I may do tomorrow. For example, some scenes are created directly with my devices in a controller/responder setup. This allows my devices to talk to my lights without the isy. They'll still have programs asso6with them but remove the isy and they'll still work. Others may be added to a scene with all devices as a responder. This requires the isy to send the command to the scene when a button is pressed but I have additional capabilities added as I can now do a double tap for secondary actions with the same button. My relax scene does this. A single press sets the mood. A double press sets the mood with music added. 

If I were programming your setup, I would create scenes and add all of the buttons to each scene. A scene for A button, B button, C button, and D button. I would add the device that is attached to the fan to each button so that it turns on when I hit one of those buttons. I would also add the other buttons to that scene and set them to off. It would look like this:

A-controller

B-responder- off

C- responder- off

D- responder-off

2477s- On

Scene2

A-responder-off

B- controller

C- responder- off

D- responder- off

2477s- On

You'll repeat the same for Buttons C and D. What this does is turns the other buttons whenever one is pressed. 

I would then write a program that says 

If control Button A (or any other button) is switched on

Then stop program button B, C, D

Wait 30 minutes 

Set scene Fan A off

 

The programs for each button would be the same

If control Button B is switched on

Then stop program button A, C, D

Wait 60 minutes

Set scene Fan B off

There are other considerations at play for any situation. That's where thinking through everything comes into play. However this will get you started

 

[David_31262]

Wow, THANKS, lilyoyo1.  That's a huge amount of help.  I got something working, though I may tweak it some more.  I've already worked a lot with programs (timer based events, so I guess I'm just more used to being in that interface).  I originally came over from the (now defunct) house linc software so the "program" method seemed famaliar.  At the moment I'm leaning more towards program control.

Here's all the steps I did:

1)  Install the 2487S KeypadLinc and link it to the isy994.

2) In the "Main" tab select the KeypadLinc.
    Select "Buttons Toggle Mode" and set all buttons to  "Non-Toggle [On]"
    Select "Buttons Grouping" and and "Reset" all groupings (probably not needed for a new switch)

3)  Create two scenes in support of the button A Timer for setting button lights on and off
    "Scn WGF Timer A - ON"
          Add all 4 Buttons as responders
               Select the Scene Title and in the main windows set the Button A action to ON
                                                Set the buttons B-D actions to Off

    "Scn WGF Timer A - OFF"
          Add all 4 Buttons as responders
               Select the Scene Title and in the main windows set all buttn actions to OFF

 

4) Under programs I created the program "A - On 1 Hour" as follows:
      IF
              (And/Control) "Switch A" is switched On

     THEN
            Set "Scn WGF Timer A - ON" On (scene to turn on the A button light and others off)
            Set  "Whole House Fan" ON (main load swtich)
            Wait 1 hour
            Set  "Whole House Fan" OFF (main load swtich)
            Set "Scn WGF Timer A - OFF" On  (scene to turn off all the button lights)
            

[lilyoyo1]

I wouldn't have done it that way but if it works for you then that's what matters. There's no right or wrong way.  I don't use any of the button groupings feature nor the non toggle modes. 

[kclenden]

5 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

There is no right or wrong way to program the isy.

There may be no right or wrong way, but some ways are definitely better.  For example...

2 hours ago, David_31262 said:

"Scn WGF Timer A - ON"
          Add all 4 Buttons as responders
               Select the Scene Title and in the main windows set the Button A action to ON
                                                Set the buttons B-D actions to Off

    "Scn WGF Timer A - OFF"
          Add all 4 Buttons as responders
               Select the Scene Title and in the main windows set all buttn actions to OFF

This will work, but the second scene "Scn WGF Timer A - OFF" is not needed.  Scenes can be turned OFF as well as ON.  So your first scene "Scn WGF Timer A - ON" can be used two ways.  First you can turn it ON which will light Button A, and turn off Buttons B-D.  Second you can turn the scene OFF which will turn off all of the responders (i.e. Buttons A-D).  So you can accomplish with your first scene (by turning it ON and OFF) exactly the same thing you can accomplish with the two scenes (by turning them ON).

Even though using two scenes will work, I consider using only one scene better.  Why?  Because each device has only so much memory available in which to hold scene definitions.  While you may never use up all the scene memory in the individual devices, you may eventually use up all the scene memory in the PLM because it holds an entry for every scene to which every device belongs.

[lilyoyo1]

That is true what you say. However some people like having separate on/off buttons. I personally don't as I like to make use of all my buttons for different tasks but I understand that desire. 

[larryllix]

Clarity to understand what you are doing a few years later has to weigh heavily for me. This is one of the main reasons I try to avoid scenes in my system. I use scenes where I need massive quantities of Insteon devices to activate simultaneously, (eg. intrusion annoyance), where I need the speed (eg. MS to lamp) and where I want several different lighting level balances in my Gathering room, combined with many WiFi bulbs, to get away from so much popcorn bulb lighting effect.

Programs are easier to understand, and find when needed for troubleshooting. You can't inject a condition into a scene or record specific items about it easily.

@David_31262 with KPLs, be careful not to receive a signal and fire a signal right back at the LED, especially in conjunction with an MS or other battery Insteon device. Always leave a few second Wait in between. You can cause RF clashes that can cause you random scene activations, most know as the "ALL ON" phenomenon.

[David_31262]

Thanks for all the help and comments from everyone.  I'm an old FPGA/ASIC designer and frequently have to unarchive and support old designs.  I'm kinda with larryllix in that programs may be easier to bring back up and understand down the road.

Scenes seem to have an advantage in that the isy is not needed to make the scene work (is setting up multiple switches as a 3-way switch basically a basic use of a scene?).

lilyoyo1:  Toggle mode.  Hmmm, maybe I should go back to toggle as a way to abort and turn off the fan early.  But, in my case, the big OFF button can also do that.  If anything I'd rather re-hitting an A-D button reset the timer to the initial value.

kclenden:  Thanks for the comment that the separate "OFF" Scene to get the button lights off is not needed.  I'll give that a shot -> no point to the added complexity.

 

[lilyoyo1]

40 minutes ago, David_31262 said:

Thanks for all the help and comments from everyone.  I'm an old FPGA/ASIC designer and frequently have to unarchive and support old designs.  I'm kinda with larryllix in that programs may be easier to bring back up and understand down the road.

 

 

This is why I said you should try both approaches to see what works best for you. Both styles are pretty easy if you're accustomed to it. I feel the opposite in that scenes are easier to manage. 

Overall there is a time and place for both ways as there are pros and cons. For me, I don't want to depend on my ISY. If you're too heavy into programming, you are at the mercy of the isy. Scenes will always work.

[oberkc]

I find scenes easier to manage when it is necessary to swap or add/delete devices for whatever reason.  I tend to design my programs, as much as possible, without reference to individual devices.  So long as my scenes are up-to-date, I generally don’t have to change programs when a different device s introduced.

[larryllix]

I think you guys are just trying to make a scene here, and that isn't on the OP's program.



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[larryllix]

10 hours ago, David_31262 said:

<snipped>

lilyoyo1:  Toggle mode.  Hmmm, maybe I should go back to toggle as a way to abort and turn off the fan early.  But, in my case, the big OFF button can also do that.  If anything I'd rather re-hitting an A-D button reset the timer to the initial value.

<snipped>

 

Careful with the KPL toggle mode. I can't remember exactly the what or why, but if you check your ISY log file you will find Insteon KPLs do not send the correct status from the buttons. IIRC they send On and Off toggling regardless of setting???? After having a long interaction with @Michel Kohanim I discovered what he was trying to tell me about KPLs statuses. (statii? )