Is anyone here afraid of Insteon disapearing?

Mustang65 · October 20, 2019

10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Mainstream doesn't want a hub at all.

I think Mainstream will purchase a hub, but it needs to be "Transparent" to the end user.

lilyoyo1 · October 20, 2019

4 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I think Mainstream will purchase a hub, but it needs to be "Transparent" to the end user.

Some will but I don't think the majority will. When you look around, it's the companies where hubs aren't needed that gets the most press. Hue Bluetooth, lifx, wemo, Yeelight....the list goes on. Where do you hear anything about hubs? Sure, smartthings gets some press. Maybe Wemo gets a quick mention. Other than that where's the press? Where are the new hubs in general? Even the major companies are hubless. Ecobee doesn't use one for their switches. Amazon built it into their speaker and the standard echo still outsells the plus. If hubs mattered that much, more companies would be rushing to fill in that space. That alone speaks volumes.

One only needs to look at Philips Hue to see that. Despite all of the limitations with their Bluetooth bulb, the press is raving about it. When they talk about the regular lineup, they speak down on the need of a hub. Then you have Alexa, Google, Apple connection without a hub. Each with their own app. Mainstream consumers go by what they read, see, and hear. They rarely research or see the bigger picture. Because of those Dynamics hubs are on their way to being a niche market.

apostolakisl · October 20, 2019

@Mustang65 @larryllix

I disagree. Most home routers can not handle that many devices. With every switch in your house on the system, you could easily be way up over 100 devices including all the other stuff you might have. I have over 50 things on my wifi as it is. It makes more sense to have a hub. The process of adding a device to your hub needs to be simple. Really there is nothing different to the end use between registering a device to their hub vs registering it to their router. Either way, you need to run some app that takes you through the linking process. ISY and Insteon is pretty easy . . .right? I mean you just push a button on your ISY console and push a button on the device. The issue with ISY is just that the console is not the greatest. Hopefully we will get a new one soon.

lilyoyo1 · October 20, 2019

17 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

@Mustang65 @larryllix

I disagree. Most home routers can not handle that many devices. With every switch in your house on the system, you could easily be way up over 100 devices including all the other stuff you might have. I have over 50 things on my wifi as it is. It makes more sense to have a hub. The process of adding a device to your hub needs to be simple. Really there is nothing different to the end use between registering a device to their hub vs registering it to their router. Either way, you need to run some app that takes you through the linking process. ISY and Insteon is pretty easy . . .right? I mean you just push a button on your ISY console and push a button on the device. The issue with ISY is just that the console is not the greatest. Hopefully we will get a new one soon.

Your knowledge as well as the fact that you use the isy takes you out of the mainstream argument.

The avg person doesn't understand routers, and such. How often do you see people with a 50 dollar router (if they bought their own at that) in a 2500 sq foot home wondering why they have dead spots and sorry internet speeds.

Most likely they aren't outfitting their whole house at once. They are buying a couple of things here and there.

Mustang65 · October 20, 2019

I believe we are only focusing on the "Retrofit" segment of the vast housing market. We are at a point in time where we need to piece part the home Automation/Home control to come up with a system that we want and maybe works. If you look at the new homes, and there will probably be around 1 million new starts this year, in the future this is the area that the Home Automation/Control and Energy Management product design will more than likely get the most attention. If the builders associations ever get their act together and come up with a set of new home automation guidelines, at a reasonable price, the home automation/control/energy management segment will really take off. But, with all these different Wi-Fi solutions, and each of them saying they are the best solution, I do not see that happening soon.

In the new home sector, I think you will see a Home Automation hub(s) of some sort, that will interface with an Energy Management hub and they will work together. I do not believe this is wishful thinking, it is just a matter of time before one of the large national home builders puts this into motion. Who will benefit from this... all of us.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Mustang65

lilyoyo1 · October 20, 2019

8 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I believe we are only focusing on the "Retrofit" segment of the vast housing market. We are at a point in time where we need to piece part the home Automation/Home control to come up with a system that we want and maybe works. If you look at the new homes, and there will probably be around 1 million new starts this year, in the future this is the area that the Home Automation/Control and Energy Management product design will more than likely get the most attention. If the builders associations ever get their act together and come up with a set of new home automation guidelines, at a reasonable price, the home automation/control/energy management segment will really take off. But, with all these different Wi-Fi solutions, and each of them saying they are the best solution, I do not see that happening soon.

In the new home sector, I think you will see a Home Automation hub(s) of some sort, that will interface with an Energy Management hub and they will work together. I do not believe this is wishful thinking, it is just a matter of time before one of the large national home builders puts this into motion. Who will benefit from this... all of us.

A new build vs retrofits are 2 different markets and situations. The market Dynamics are different.

With a new build, a specialist is generally doing the work since it's generally part of a package that the homeowner adds while retrofits are generally people already living somewhere simply wanting to add something. A specialist doing an installation isn't mainstream and knows what he needs and how to accomplish what he wants. Hubs won't disappear. They have a place. I just think it'll be a niche market

Mustang65 · October 20, 2019

18 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

A new build vs retrofits are 2 different markets and situations. The market Dynamics are different.

Agree with that, but the end result is the same, a happy end user. If the new housing industry ever gets its act together and gets all the compatibility issues resolved, what is the difference then of buying a new house with everything that talks to each other, with little or no interaction and is transparent to the end user or the ability to purchase the individual parts of the bundled new house system that has all the different modules, sensors..... that are designed to work together as one system and is transparent to the end user. You purchase their hub(s), and the individual needed parts.

Today, we are trying to get everything to talk to each other by tying them together using what ever means possible and the result is... well just look at the posts for interfacing these other systems.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Mustang65

larryllix · October 21, 2019

2 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

@Mustang65 @larryllix

I disagree. Most home routers can not handle that many devices. With every switch in your house on the system, you could easily be way up over 100 devices including all the other stuff you might have. I have over 50 things on my wifi as it is. It makes more sense to have a hub. The process of adding a device to your hub needs to be simple. Really there is nothing different to the end use between registering a device to their hub vs registering it to their router. Either way, you need to run some app that takes you through the linking process. ISY and Insteon is pretty easy . . .right? I mean you just push a button on your ISY console and push a button on the device. The issue with ISY is just that the console is not the greatest. Hopefully we will get a new one soon.

I see a lot of flaws in that due to two different types of users.

I was referring to the remote control crowd. You can't compare the HA enthusiast with the "remote control crowd" although the lines are being blurred in order to sell product.

The "remote control crowd" does not want a hub, they just want an app and a device and no setup. This is what made Nest and a dozen other brands of thermostats, and so many other products popular with the non-technical crowd. The "remote control crowd" does not want to push a button or link anything. That is too complicated and they may have to hire somebody to do it. WiFi Smart bulbs do not have any buttons to push. The five or six different branded apps just find the bulbs automatically, and offer total control. If this lay mentality had to dig into their router and find an IP address they would return the bulbs and find another brand. Plug and Pray made Windows more popular as they promoted and supported the trend. Sign of the times for the lay crowd.

I love the freedom of control I have with ISY and think Insteon protocol is still the best of any system, but still have WiFi bulbs that Insteon will not allow on the market with their passive aggressive control. I have 148 devices showing on my DHCP router table. I can, and have, animated my bulbs and the WiFi traffic is insignificant now that my WiFi does almost a 1 Gbps.

I am a HA type but WiFi is a means to an end that Insteon hasn't bothered to fill. I already have more than a dozen MiLight bulbs and Hue bulbs that became garbage without hubs.

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

56 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Agree with that, but the end result is the same, a happy end user. If the new housing industry ever gets its act together and gets all the compatibility issues resolved, what is the difference then of buying a new house with everything that talks to each other, with little or no interaction and is transparent to the end user or the ability to purchase the individual parts of the bundled new house system that has all the different modules, sensors..... that are designed to work together as one system and is transparent to the end user. You purchase their hub(s), and the individual needed parts.

Today, we are trying to get everything to talk to each other by tying them together using what ever means possible and the result is... well just look at the posts for interfacing these other systems.

The difference is in who's doing the setup. That changes things alot

apostolakisl · October 21, 2019

59 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I see a lot of flaws in that due to two different types of users.

I was referring to the remote control crowd. You can't compare the HA enthusiast with the "remote control crowd" although the lines are being blurred in order to sell product.

The "remote control crowd" does not want a hub, they just want an app and a device and no setup. This is what made Nest and a dozen other brands of thermostats, and so many other products popular with the non-technical crowd. The "remote control crowd" does not want to push a button or link anything. That is too complicated and they may have to hire somebody to do it. WiFi Smart bulbs do not have any buttons to push. The five or six different branded apps just find the bulbs automatically, and offer total control. If this lay mentality had to dig into their router and find an IP address they would return the bulbs and find another brand. Plug and Pray made Windows more popular as they promoted and supported the trend. Sign of the times for the lay crowd.

I love the freedom of control I have with ISY and think Insteon protocol is still the best of any system, but still have WiFi bulbs that Insteon will not allow on the market with their passive aggressive control. I have 148 devices showing on my DHCP router table. I can, and have, animated my bulbs and the WiFi traffic is insignificant now that my WiFi does almost a 1 Gbps.

I am a HA type but WiFi is a means to an end that Insteon hasn't bothered to fill. I already have more than a dozen MiLight bulbs and Hue bulbs that became garbage without hubs.

What is the difference if your ISY finds the device or your Google home finds it? You still have to manually acknowledge the device and somewhere in there have physical contact with the device (push a button, scan it or something to prove it is your device). Otherwise, just like the earlier post with the thermostat, your neighbor might accidentally (or on purpose) take control of your devices. The ISY, for example, is just a slightly better user interface away from being as convenient as any method. An automated light switch is never going to be plug and play. No matter what, you need to remove the old one and wire in the new one. If you can do that, you can certainly push a button on it . . . and that will be the easiest part of the whole thing. I guess you could have the lamplinc type device for plug and play, but how many table lamps do people want to automate (or I should say remote control since those plug and play setups pretty much aren't automating anything).

Again, you can't start having 200 devices on your wifi.

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

23 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

What is the difference if your ISY finds the device or your Google home finds it? You still have to manually acknowledge the device and somewhere in there have physical contact with the device (push a button, scan it or something to prove it is your device). Otherwise, just like the earlier post with the thermostat, your neighbor might accidentally (or on purpose) take control of your devices. The ISY, for example, is just a slightly better user interface away from being as convenient as any method. An automated light switch is never going to be plug and play. No matter what, you need to remove the old one and wire in the new one. If you can do that, you can certainly push a button on it . . . and that will be the easiest part of the whole thing. I guess you could have the lamplinc type device for plug and play, but how many table lamps do people want to automate (or I should say remote control since those plug and play setups pretty much aren't automating anything).

Again, you can't start having 200 devices on your wifi.

You're looking at things with your mindset not realizing you are not the avg person. The fact that you use the Isy means you took time to do the research, found a product that met your needs and was willing to take the time to configure and set up your system. Regardless of how complex your system is, it's more than most are willing to do.

The difference is what it takes to set something up. With the ISY, homeseer, or any hub; you're connecting it to your router, configuring something and adding devices. These simple wifi devices are much easier. Download an app, plug something in, app finds device (or scan device, and your done.

apostolakisl · October 21, 2019

1 minute ago, lilyoyo1 said:

You're looking at things with your mindset not realizing you are not the avg person. The fact that you use the Isy means you took time to do the research, found a product that met your needs and was willing to take the time to configure and set up your system. Regardless of how complex your system is, it's more than most are willing to do.

The difference is what it takes to set something up. With the ISY, homeseer, or any hub; you're connecting it to your router, configuring something and adding devices. These simple wifi devices are much easier. Download an app, plug something in, app finds device (or scan device, and your done.

A system like that would only be valuable to someone who wanted a few lights automated er, I mean remote controlled. That is great and there are lots or people who want just that. But you hardly take over the home automation market when you aren't selling home automation. So I don't argue that there is a place for that. I just argue that it is a different product all together. Just like put put courses do a fine business, they aren't selling golf and real golf doesn't worry that it is losing market share to put put.

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

25 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

A system like that would only be valuable to someone who wanted a few lights automated er, I mean remote controlled. That is great and there are lots or people who want just that. But you hardly take over the home automation market when you aren't selling home automation. So I don't argue that there is a place for that. I just argue that it is a different product all together. Just like put put courses do a fine business, they aren't selling golf and real golf doesn't worry that it is losing market share to put put.

I'm not sure the point you're trying to make. This segment of the discussion was about hubs and simplicity. What the general public wants.

Puttputt and golf are 2 different things which is why neither worries about market share. That's why you don't see puttputt making millionaires unlike golf. The same as automation vs control crowd. The control crowd isn't aware they are the control crowd. In their minds they have automation. Control and automation is one in the same to them so there is nothing for someone to "take over" which is why automation will be a niche market

Builders that focus on building homes and providing a comprehensive package will use a specialist to wire in an automation system. Whether they use lutron, Control4, crestron is irrelevant. They are selling a package to someone willing to pay for it and do the work for them.

Some builders will add some smart devices such as a Sonos component, thermostat, and Ring camera to say they are doing something. Its a quick and easy way to claim smart home without investing alot.

This is a far cry from Joe Schmo who simply wants to turn a few lights on in his man cave. He or she will start with that small project, love it and add more to another area. They aren't aware or understandof the impact of adding too many devices to their Network.

The fact is, if hub usage/desire were growing, more companies would be looking at building hubs. They arent. Its a niche market. The ones in that space will fight amongst each other for their respective market just like the home control crowd will do the same for theirs. The control crowd will just be much larger

Edited October 21, 2019 by lilyoyo1

larryllix · October 21, 2019

11 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

A system like that would only be valuable to someone who wanted a few lights automated er, I mean remote controlled. That is great and there are lots or people who want just that. But you hardly take over the home automation market when you aren't selling home automation. So I don't argue that there is a place for that. I just argue that it is a different product all together. Just like put put courses do a fine business, they aren't selling golf and real golf doesn't worry that it is losing market share to put put.

One of my son's has a larger home with about 40 smart devices installed so far . He has purchased an Insteon Hub to control the Insteon switches and devices I gave him years ago. The rest are all WiFi, mostly wall switches. Despite being a 5 year university computer scientist, and travelling the world, selling his software package in a multi-billion dollar company, he refuses to accept an ISY994 from me. He does NOT want to do any code writing. He wants to plug things in and have them work with the least effort. He does use timers and schedules on Alexa, and that is the extent of it. He uses remote and vocal commands to controls lights, his pool, massive Sonos system, and a few other gadgets. He is not a HA guy and never wants to be, even though he gives me python3 and PHP advice.

My WiFi bulbs have no buttons and require no approval to connect to. They are not accessible outside my LAN address so my neighbour cannot access them without that password. LAN apps can access them automatically, knowing nothing about them, except the protocol but like you posted, who would bother to attempt to hack them?

Edited October 21, 2019 by larryllix

upstatemike · October 21, 2019

So what would be the best technology to migrate to if Insteon were to fade away? I see Lifx now has candle bulbs and a switch coming out and their bulbs give you options not available from any other product (like polychrome bulbs) so maybe Wi-Fi is the way to go. My concern though is that WiFi is not keeping up with the rate of expansion of IoT devices so might be another dead end as folks scale out their Smart Homes. ISY users might be doing things on a scale larger than mainstream folks do today but our "cutting edge" will be business as usual before you know it. The new 802.11ax Wi-Fi standard (aka Wi-Fi 6) is supposed to help with the expansion of IoT but it was designed when that meant switches, locks, and thermostats. In this new age of individual bulbs, window sensors, leak sensor, etc, etc, it is going to already have fallen behind on day one of its release. And as others have pointed out, consumer routers are not coming anywhere close to ramping up to the processing power needed to handle what could be several hundred HA devices in even a modest sized house (don't forget the smart appliances, smart plumbing fixtures, and Wi-Fi enabled mouse traps.) I could point out similar shortcomings in every other protocol option out there today as well.

The sad truth is that while all of the different protocols are fine for casual "starter systems" there is no protocol available today that has the full spectrum of devices that folks want combined with the horsepower and scaleability needed to justify a full blown commitment. Maybe the safest bet is X-10 since it at least has the track record of being a good investment based on it having been around more than 40 years now. Plus many of your older Insteon devices speak X-10 so you can re-purpose them when SmartHome goes under.

larryllix · October 21, 2019

5G

When you read up on the specs, IMHO it will be coming to a home near you and WiFi will disappear eventually, but that doesn't help anybody now.

upstatemike · October 21, 2019

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

5G

When you read up on the specs, IMHO it will be coming to a home near you and WiFi will disappear eventually, but that doesn't help anybody now.

Where I live we are still waiting for the full build out of 4G or fiber or fast cable even. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for 5G to do anything.

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

5 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

So what would be the best technology to migrate to if Insteon were to fade away? I see Lifx now has candle bulbs and a switch coming out and their bulbs give you options not available from any other product (like polychrome bulbs) so maybe Wi-Fi is the way to go. My concern though is that WiFi is not keeping up with the rate of expansion of IoT devices so might be another dead end as folks scale out their Smart Homes. ISY users might be doing things on a scale larger than mainstream folks do today but our "cutting edge" will be business as usual before you know it. The new 802.11ax Wi-Fi standard (aka Wi-Fi 6) is supposed to help with the expansion of IoT but it was designed when that meant switches, locks, and thermostats. In this new age of individual bulbs, window sensors, leak sensor, etc, etc, it is going to already have fallen behind on day one of its release. And as others have pointed out, consumer routers are not coming anywhere close to ramping up to the processing power needed to handle what could be several hundred HA devices in even a modest sized house (don't forget the smart appliances, smart plumbing fixtures, and Wi-Fi enabled mouse traps.) I could point out similar shortcomings in every other protocol option out there today as well.

The sad truth is that while all of the different protocols are fine for casual "starter systems" there is no protocol available today that has the full spectrum of devices that folks want combined with the horsepower and scaleability needed to justify a full blown commitment. Maybe the safest bet is X-10 since it at least has the track record of being a good investment based on it having been around more than 40 years now. Plus many of your older Insteon devices speak X-10 so you can re-purpose them when SmartHome goes under.

At this point I think anyone looking at a singular technology as best is selling themselves short. With the ISY and nodeservers, best should be looked at from the device level.

For example, I look at lights, lamps, accent, etc as separate entities. For that I use insteon because I feel there are no better options in that price range for what I want to do.

At one time, I chose fibaro for my motion sensors as I felt no other sensors were better. Subsequently, I grown to like Dome's motion sensors more. You won't go wrong with either one but the general gist is that zwave has better sensors so I go with them.

I have a mixture of insteon and zwave outlets. I use zwave outlets to build my zwave network as well as places I don't need dual outlets. Insteon for the rest.

For lamps and accent light, I use Philips hue bulbs. I like their ecosystem and the fact that it's more customizable than lifx (though lifx has better colors and so forth).

If insteon goes under, when I redo the house, I'd probably go with Control4 since there are drivers to integrate it with the ISY.

For scalability and full home automation nothing beats a full scale dedicated home automation system. This applies whether tone uses insteon, zwave, lutron, Control4, Savant, or Crestron. Those looking for full scale are no longer the avg consumer. Mainstream users tend to have a specialized interest vs a control everything mindset like we do. They wouldn't know AX from wifi6 (which is the same thing) and probably don't care. They just want their stuff to work and be done with it.

Scottmichaelj · October 21, 2019

Lutron...

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

13 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Lutron...

Welcome back. Haven't seen you on the forums in a while

upstatemike · October 21, 2019

31 minutes ago, Scottmichaelj said:

Lutron...

Great technology, super limited range of devices. Insteon, UPB, and Lutron Clearwave all suffer from a thin product catalog with lots of gaps. None of them offer bulbs or even socket modules. No power monitoring within the modules. Lutron limits certain options to certain lines so no Caseta Thermostat or wired keypad, None offers RGB indicator LEDs on their switches and keypads. etc. Not what you want to see if you are picking a new standard to invest in and use for many years.

Edited October 21, 2019 by upstatemike

lilyoyo1 · October 21, 2019

1 hour ago, upstatemike said:

Great technology, super limited range of devices. Insteon, UPB, and Lutron Clearwave all suffer from a thin product catalog with lots of gaps. None of them offer bulbs or even socket modules. No power monitoring within the modules. Lutron limits certain options to certain lines so no Caseta Thermostat or wired keypad, None offers RGB indicator LEDs on their switches and keypads. etc. Not what you want to see if you are picking a new standard to invest in and use for many years.

What protocol do you think has everything? Every company/protocol has holes in it's product line. This could be devices, product features, or experience. There is no 1 size fits all. The best system is the one which does what a person is looking for.

For example, I have no desire for energy monitoring. I know if I turn something on its using electricity. How much it uses isn't going to make me stop using that device, so energy monitoring (or lack of) isn't going to make or break it for me.

In the DYI space, the controller is more important to me than the underlying devices. I'd want something that allows me to mix and match (ISY is my favorite) devices to get the most out of my system. While nothing on your list matters to me, the right controller would allow me to fill in missing devices from other protocols

jec6613 · October 21, 2019

4 hours ago, upstatemike said:

Great technology, super limited range of devices. Insteon, UPB, and Lutron Clearwave all suffer from a thin product catalog with lots of gaps. None of them offer bulbs or even socket modules. No power monitoring within the modules. Lutron limits certain options to certain lines so no Caseta Thermostat or wired keypad, None offers RGB indicator LEDs on their switches and keypads. etc. Not what you want to see if you are picking a new standard to invest in and use for many years.

But if Insteon went away tomorrow, I'd also use Lutron for lighting. Z-Wave to replace the Insteon sensors … and neither of them immediately, I'm 95% built out so there's no rush to move to another platform until things stop working. And I have a spare PLM, and a spare USB PLM for when the Polisy eventually takes it all over.

The fit and finish on Lutron are even better than Insteon, and Z-Wave aren't there yet. It'd have to be RA2Select though, since Caseta can't handle as many devices as I have. And hopefully if this ever happens, there will be a Lutron NodeServer.