Do I need a 2nd ISY for a guest house?

[Tango]

We're renovating an old barn that was on the lot when we bought it and changing it into a guest house.  The distance from the house to the barn is beyond wifi range, so I'm connecting the two with a fiber optic cable.  The barn will be on the same LAN as the house, but the wifi node will have a different name.  (The range of the two may overlap, and I think just using a different name for each wifi network will eliminate confusion.)

I'm using an ISY-9944i ZW/IR-Pro in my house and still haven't added most of the devices I want to.  (I'm using something that fits in the light switches instead of just having Z-Wave light switches so we can use switches that fit the style of the house, so it's taking me awhile to get to installing all of them.)

I'm going to be using Z-Wave devices in the barn and maybe some Insteon devices there, too.

Do I need to add another ISY device in the barn, too, or will Z-Wave and Insteon devices connect to the one in the house as long as they're in range of a wifi that is on the same LAN as the ISY in my house?

[madcodger]

I have this same situation at a property. You will need a second device, IMO. There is no commercially available way to connect via z-wave using ISY, and Insteon is unlikely to bridge well as you have two electric panels and powerline as the only connection (no RF due to distance). Homeseer makes a device that allows for ethernet-based extension of z-wave if using their controller, but I find their controllers far less reliable vs. the ISY (“hangs” occasionally, requires a reboot far more often, etc). @simplextech is working on a similar solution for ISY but as I think he would agree, it is still in early days and not for the person who needs an “it just works” solution. I still run an ISY and a Homeseer solution, but that’s largely because I want to keep a foot in the Homeseer world as well, and have some ways of rebooting things remotely.

So, for reliability, I’d just go with two ISYs and be done with it. What I don’t know is how to access two systems easily via something like Mobilinc, but others can comment on that.

[apostolakisl]

@Tango

OPTION 1:  I have done this, but only for Insteon.  I made what amounts to a 150 foot extension cord and put an Insteon hub on the end of it.  It is plugged into building 1 and extends over to building two.  This does not connect the electrical systems of the two buildings.  It simply puts an Insteon radio at the end of a very long extension cord.  The cord carries nothing but a few milliamps to power the hub's circuits.  I fused the cord with an inline fuse at 200 ma to prevent someone from trying to actually plug something into it of substance.  This works perfectly at repeating Insteon.  Once the radio from the hub encounters its first Insteon device in building 2, it then is injected into the power line of that building as well.  The max length of this I do not know, perhaps a couple hundred feet?  Maybe if you did something crazy like use shielded coax cable instead of electric wire you could get super long runs without the PLC degrading.  Of course this would totally be non-code to put 120v on a coax wire.  If you chose to go there, I would definitely fuse it at the least amount of ma needed to keep the repeater running.  Why a hub and not a repeater?  I initially had a dual band lamplinc on the end of it and it was inconsistent.  I happened to have a hub that came as a package deal with a bunch of other stuff I actually wanted which in the end made the hub less than free, so I had it and thought to try it.  Turns out the hub is much better at repeating the PLC signal.  It works perfectly.  It is very important that you do not in any way connect building 1 and 2 electrically.  No conductor from building 1 can touch any conductor in building 2.

OPTION 2:  I have read on this forum that someone demonstrated linking two PLM's with an RS232 "crossover" wire plugged between each device's port.  Of course a copper wire between the two devices is not going to take an rs232 signal very far.  But they make rs232/fiber adapters.  So you could perhaps run this even a few miles.  This is all theory, I have never done it.  The fiber converters aren't cheap either.  EDIT:  maybe this?  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Siemens-Fiber-optic-RS232-interface-used-538-750/131635878117?epid=1401848480&hash=item1ea61c18e5:g:Ui4AAOSwYHxWKmEV

In summary, it is much nicer to have the two buildings on the same ISY.  Makes programming and control much easier.  You have to decide if it is more trouble to get the buildings on the same ISY than it is to synchronize two isy's.  

Edited November 30, 2019 by apostolakisl

[apostolakisl]

This thread has instructions on linking two PLM's via the RS232

[madcodger]

Which fails more often - An ISY or a PLM?

A PLM, by a long shot. So...

 

[Tango]

A few notes on this:

1) The direct distance from the house to the barn is 333' (closest point to closest point), but almost 500' via cable.  I dug a trench from the house to the barn.  That had to wind through the woods, then connect to the old dirt road connecting the two and cross over the creek, then, from there, follow the road on an indirect route to get to the barn.  I started with 500' pipes and ended up with about 10' out of the ground under the house and about 20' extra in the barn, so it's about 470' total distance.

2) The barn is on a subpanel from the main breaker panel in the house, with a 200 amp breaker.  From the breaker box in the house to the subpanel in the barn, there are 3 4/0 cables and a ground wire.

3) While the pipe is empty, I'll be running 2 (or 3, possibly) fiber optic cables from the house to the barn.  Other than the power line, there will be no wired connections.  All fiber.  (No power loss over distance and no threat of lightning - and I've known people who had systems burn out from the charge from lightning and an underground cable.)

So I can't run an extension cord, but it is on the same power circuit.  However, I do now know if any device using a signal over the power line will work or will be distorted after 500' of cable.  If I use an RS232 connection, I'd have to convert  the RS232 signals to ethernet and be able to send it over an ethernet connection.  Also, I'm using the Insteon modem.  That uses the RS232 port.

After reading some of the comments here, I think my best bet is to use a 2nd ISY hub in the barn and hope I can do all I need down there without an Insteon modem.  I do see that there may be an issue with 2 ISYs on the same LAN if I want to sign in to it or control the 2nd hub through a program like what I use on my mobile devices to handle two hubs, but I'm sure I can find a program that can handle it.

[madcodger]

At the risk of “bending” this thread to the OP’s likely solution path, what is the recommended strategy/toolset for managing two ISYs (two properties/buildings on separate ISYs) via mobile apps such as Mobilinc? @Michel Kohanim, any ideas or suggestions?

[jec6613]

Assuming the second building is smaller than the first by a substantial amount, I'd just use network resources to pass commands so that every single device is effectively controlled from one ISY.

[lilyoyo1]

Zwave definitely wouldn't reach the second building. The insteon Powerline signal can travel to to a mile uninterrupted so it's possible for it to be done with insteon.

Personally,  I'd just use a second isy and call it a day. That way, problems in 1 location doesn't affect the other

[dbuss]

3 hours ago, madcodger said:

At the risk of “bending” this thread to the OP’s likely solution path, what is the recommended strategy/toolset for managing two ISYs (two properties/buildings on separate ISYs) via mobile apps such as Mobilinc? @Michel Kohanim, any ideas or suggestions?

Mobilinc and Agave both accommodate multiple ISYs by setting up a separate profile for each ISY.

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by dbuss

[apostolakisl]

If building 2 is a sub panel of building 1, then you don't have to worry so much about surge/lightening issues.  Assuming your electrician did it right, then there will NOT be a ground on building 2 and building 2 panel will not bond ground to neutral. All the conductors in building 2 will be grounded at building 1 maintaining the two buildings at the same potential.

So no "extension cord" needed at all, the whole building is basically on one as is.  Have you tested Insteon comm from building 1 to 2 as is?  500 feet is pushing your luck, but it is certainly possible especially if you don't have any signal suckers.  And it may be that the conduit connecting power is shorter since your low voltage path took some detours that perhaps were not taken by the electricians.  

Connecting RS232 would need to be done via a dedicated fiber-rs232 device.  RS232 will not travel on copper more than maybe 50 feet at the absolute most.  I suspect that the devices I linked to on ebay would be a very viable option and keep the flaky risk to a minimum.  

I don't know of any tricks to repeat z-wave over that distance.  I can only think that you would need to have multiple z-wave repeaters every 100 feet or so?

If going 100% Insteon is an option, I would definitely start out by playing around with getting the power line comm to work over the sub-panel connection as it is.

And then there is just buying a second ISY.  If you want the two properties synchronized, then two ISY's is less than ideal.  The thing about two ISY's vs getting the two buildings on the same system is that two ISY's will continue to be a thorn in your side for every change you might want to make in the future vs getting both buildings on the same ISY is only an issue up front.

Edited December 1, 2019 by apostolakisl

[Tango]

Only time for a quick response, since my grandkid is on Facetime with my wife and I have to get down there.

Building code, at least here, requires a ground at the house and at the other building, due to the distance from the house.  So the barn (building 2) has to be grounded according to code.  However, there is a groundline (as well) running from the house to the barn.

Edited December 1, 2019 by Tango

[apostolakisl]

8 minutes ago, Tango said:

Only time for a quick response, since my grandkid is on Facetime with my wife and I have to get down there.

Building code, at least here, requires a ground at the house and at the other building, due to the distance from the house.  So the barn (building 2) has to be grounded according to code.  However, there is a groundline (as well) running from the house to the barn.

If building 2 is grounded, then you can not have any copper data connections between the two buildings.  But that is not so much of an issue since it appears the plan is to use fiber anyway.  Even though it is on the same electric service, you would need to consider it as being on a separate service from the standpoint of low voltage connections.  That would hold true for any audio wires, antenna wires, alarm system wires, and so on.

Edited December 1, 2019 by apostolakisl

[Tango]

Talked it over with the inspectors.  Both grounded, wire between them.

[jec6613]

9 hours ago, Tango said:

3) While the pipe is empty, I'll be running 2 (or 3, possibly) fiber optic cables from the house to the barn.  Other than the power line, there will be no wired connections.  All fiber.  (No power loss over distance and no threat of lightning - and I've known people who had systems burn out from the charge from lightning and an underground cable.)

Side note: I've done fiber before, run either 6 or 12 strands of singlemode (it'll come as a single cable) and terminate properly to a fiber patch panel, then run to whatever you want.  Don't even try and bother with individual pairs, and singlemode can run 100 Gbit later if you ever have the need.  Run it properly once and you'll never regret it.  Singlemode SFPs aren't much more expensive than multimode, but re-pulling that cable in 10 years is.

If you want some multimode to run things other than Ethernet, might as well run 6 or 12 of that as well, and be sure it's OM4.  RS232 over fiber, audio over fiber, and so on frequently will only work with multimode due to cost considerations.  But the way things are going, you'll probably be better off with just singlemode and dump everything down an Ethernet pipe.

And if you want to try linking the two PLMs via RS232, you can get RS232 over Ethernet adapters and just send it over TCP/IP with everything else.  Even a reasonably cheap Netgear switch will be more than enough to handle all of that going over it, their cheap evergreen GS716/724T switches will handle AV over Ethernet no problem, and if you need more bandwidth the M4300 series is designed for AV over Ethernet from the ground up with 10/40Gb support.  The tiny control signals will be no problem for any of them to handle.

[apostolakisl]

3 hours ago, jec6613 said:

And if you want to try linking the two PLMs via RS232, you can get RS232 over Ethernet adapters and just send it over TCP/IP with everything else.  Even a reasonably cheap Netgear switch will be more than enough to handle all of that going over it, their cheap evergreen GS716/724T switches will handle AV over Ethernet no problem, and if you need more bandwidth the M4300 series is designed for AV over Ethernet from the ground up with 10/40Gb support.  The tiny control signals will be no problem for any of them to handle.

I'd be very curious to see if this works with PLM's.  If indeed it does, and there aren't latency issues that screw with things or whatever, then you could set up Insteon networks all over the world that run on a single ISY.  I suppose you are referring to a device such as this? https://www.newegg.com/p/36X-0002-00013?item=9SIAF5H6JW1891&source=region&nm_mc=knc-googlemkp-pc&cm_mmc=knc-googlemkp-pc-_-pla-louis's+marketplace-_-network+-+device+server-_-9SIAF5H6JW1891&gclid=CjwKCAiA5o3vBRBUEiwA9PVzapmj5QEFnUjKAr93zXwFu8n-SR63yEADUEv2xc3vpyG71dMEbz8johoC_1YQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Personally, I wouldn't mind throwing in a few Insteon devices at my office and having my home ISY control them.

Found this:  https://www.usriot.com/download/M4/Transparent-transmission-between-USRIOT-Serial to Ethernet-products.pdf

Looks like it should work.  

Edited December 1, 2019 by apostolakisl

[Bumbershoot]

4 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

I'd be very curious to see if this works with PLM's.

With the new PLM in the FCC database (4000 links), then this might be practical, provided it works.

[apostolakisl]

1 minute ago, Bumbershoot said:

With the new PLM in the FCC database (4000 links), then this might be practical, provided it works.

Well that looks nice.  I guess then I could buy one of these new PLM's and then use my current plm and my spare plm to be the location linking devices.  My current plm is struggling a little with the 1000 links.

[Brian H]

Where did you see 4000 Links?

I know for a time the sales page did say a larger number but it quietly disappeared. The latest V2.5 being sold now is 1000+.

Note the Black Friday sale price of $43.99 ends tonight. Looks like they extended it to 12/03/2019 as Cyber Monday Sale.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Brian H
Add information

[Bumbershoot]

 

2 hours ago, Brian H said:

Where did you see 4000 Links?

 

[jec6613]

14 hours ago, apostolakisl said:

I'd be very curious to see if this works with PLM's.  If indeed it does, and there aren't latency issues that screw with things or whatever, then you could set up Insteon networks all over the world that run on a single ISY.  I suppose you are referring to a device such as this? https://www.newegg.com/p/36X-0002-00013?item=9SIAF5H6JW1891&source=region&nm_mc=knc-googlemkp-pc&cm_mmc=knc-googlemkp-pc-_-pla-louis's+marketplace-_-network+-+device+server-_-9SIAF5H6JW1891&gclid=CjwKCAiA5o3vBRBUEiwA9PVzapmj5QEFnUjKAr93zXwFu8n-SR63yEADUEv2xc3vpyG71dMEbz8johoC_1YQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Personally, I wouldn't mind throwing in a few Insteon devices at my office and having my home ISY control them.

Found this:  https://www.usriot.com/download/M4/Transparent-transmission-between-USRIOT-Serial to Ethernet-products.pdf

Looks like it should work.  

It should work just fine on a switched network.  Routed over the internet and tunneling through IPSec, on the other hand, may not be an acceptable situation.

[Brian H]

Thank you for the link to the not yet released 2234-223 RS232 module. I have seen no information on when it will be released.  Maybe that is why the 2413S PLM has been in sales like the $29 and Black Friday deals. Clear out the stock so the new ones will be released and have older models gathering dust.

Can the ISY994i setup go out to ~4000 Links?

 

[Bumbershoot]

57 minutes ago, Brian H said:

Can the ISY994i setup go out to ~4000 Links?

Currently, I don't think so, but I don't know, and with the current PLM, it's impossible to know.  But, there's a Polisy out now, and I understand that UDI wants to migrate the ISY to it.  More system resources equals more links?

Edited December 2, 2019 by Bumbershoot

[apostolakisl]

4 hours ago, jec6613 said:

It should work just fine on a switched network.  Routed over the internet and tunneling through IPSec, on the other hand, may not be an acceptable situation.

Yes, well that is what I would be doing.  The office and house are on a router-router vpn tunnel so it would be connected through that tunnel with the latency that comes with that.  I don't know if the PLM would be sensitive to that.

[Bumbershoot]

26 minutes ago, apostolakisl said:

Yes, well that is what I would be doing.  The office and house are on a router-router vpn tunnel so it would be connected through that tunnel with the latency that comes with that.  I don't know if the PLM would be sensitive to that.

You'd think that the ISY would be very tolerant, being event driven.  The PLM has to be at least somewhat tolerant, given the uncertain/unscheduled nature of the i/o environment it deals with. 

We're not running polled SCADA systems here.  Stuff happens with it happens.  I would think that this might come down to something as simple as the availability of buffers in the PLM (just speculation, I have no idea how the PLM actually works).  This could be an interesting experiment for someone with the right resources.