arf1410 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 I am going to replace a pair of Smarthome X-10 switches on a 3-way circuit, with Insteon 2477D. The Smarthome website has a wiring diagram, along with instructions to directly link the switches. However, it also appear I can make a 3-way circuit via my ISY994. It seems a little more direct, and likely faster operation, if I keep the ISY out of the 3-way, and just do that direct link? Any reason why that isn't a preferred solution?
oberkc Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 I find it a good general rule to perform all linking operations through the ISY. I see no compelling reason to violate that rule here. I find it easier to do with the ISY, value having the link records of the switches match that of the ISY, and value being able to control the scene via ISY. I see no benefit of doing the linking directly. 1
paulbates Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The ISY becomes the insteon network manager. You want to use the ISY. Direct linking works at the switches... but the ISY will not see that, or be able to control it with programs .... nixing the benefit of having a smart controller running your network. Paul 1
arf1410 Posted December 22, 2019 Author Posted December 22, 2019 If I do direct linking, wont the ISY still see any activity of that switch, and also be able to control it? If for some reason the network is down, will the switches still work, or at least one of them?
simplextech Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, arf1410 said: If I do direct linking, wont the ISY still see any activity of that switch, and also be able to control it? If for some reason the network is down, will the switches still work, or at least one of them? Doing the linking from the ISY gives you the best of the technology. Without the ISY managing the switches you can't use them in a program. The devices are still inked and still work without the ISY being online just like they would with direct linking. So you lose nothing but gain the ability to use them with ISY programs.
larryllix Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 16 minutes ago, simplextech said: Doing the linking from the ISY gives you the best of the technology. Without the ISY managing the switches you can't use them in a program. The devices are still inked and still work without the ISY being online just like they would with direct linking. So you lose nothing but gain the ability to use them with ISY programs. @arf1410 ...and ISY controlled Scenes (direct linking) allows you to modify the settings easily, any time, without visiting the switch(es). The Insteon network is completely independent of your Ethernet LAN network. ISY can mange it a lot easier than manual linking.
carealtor Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 5 hours ago, arf1410 said: It seems a little more direct, and likely faster operation, if I keep the ISY out of the 3-way, and just do that direct link? No, this is not the case. It won't be any faster. The linking will be the same regardless of doing it direct or with the ISY. The ISY makes it easier to do the linking, and the links will be exactly the same between the two devices, so it won't be any faster, it will still be instantaneous. ? Plus, as already mentioned, if you use the ISY to do the linking, then the ISY will know the status of the switches. 2
paulbates Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 11 hours ago, arf1410 said: If for some reason the network is down, will the switches still work, or at least one of them? All of them. The ISY programs scene links into the devices that work across devices, just like manual linking... standard insteon. The PLM and ISY could die, and the three ways will continue to function. This was important to me as I traveled a lot for my work and wanted my family to have working lighting always.
lilyoyo1 Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 If the isy is not aware of what you've done then you'll have problems long term. If you feel better linking outside of the isy you can. Just know anything you do won't be captured by the isy properly. For some things this wouldn't matter but should you expand your system it may and that headache alone would make you wish you had followed the advice of others
arf1410 Posted December 22, 2019 Author Posted December 22, 2019 OK... so I will ignore the Smarthome instructions and try the ISY version ... can someone provide a link for the basic recommended physical wiring of the 3-way using my insteon switches? 1
oberkc Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The instructions that come with the various insteon devices have historically been based upon the assumption that there is no ISY (or, for that matter, no hub). I have not checked lately, but assume that this continues to be the case.
Brian H Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 The full users manuals you can download. Have some typical 3 way wiring information. You sometimes have to reuse the Traveler wires between the two modules. So both modules can get a Line and Neutral power connection. Then you cap off the Red load wires in the locations not connected to the Load. Then the ISY994i can do all the needed linking between the two modules. I have also seen the Insteon Module quick and full manuals. They do give the manual linking information you can ignore with the ISY994i in use.
oberkc Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 Of course, linking and physical wiring are two different issues. The original question and subsequent responses were in relationship to the linking operation. The general idea for wiring is to provide all insteon devices with unswitched power and neutral. The load can be connected to any of the insteon devices, it does not matter which. Unfortunately, there is no single wiring diagram. Standard three-way wiring can vary, depending on which box power is supplied (is it at the fixture, or one of the switch boxes), whether the travelers pass through the fixture box, and whether there is neutral at all box locations. To provide you with a diagram for your application would require a description of your wiring, at the two switch boxes and at the fixture. This includes number of cables at each location, along with number and color of conductors within each cable. 1
simplextech Posted December 22, 2019 Posted December 22, 2019 10 minutes ago, arf1410 said: OK... so I will ignore the Smarthome instructions and try the ISY version ... can someone provide a link for the basic recommended physical wiring of the 3-way using my insteon switches? The physical wiring is the same. Regardless of using an ISY or Insteon Hub or No hub/controller at all. Follow the wiring instructions but you can ignore the "configuration" instructions as they are intended for use with the Insteon Hub or direct linking. For a 3 way you will not wire the second switch with a traveler like a normal 3-way switch. You will wire the first switch controlling the load just like any normal switch with a load. The second switch will be wired with power/neutral but without a load. Cap off the red wire and any remaining wire in the box. (generally the traveller). Verify the first switch is physically controlling the load correctly. Then you can link the switches either via ISY or direct that is all up to you but I recommend using the ISY as it just makes it easier.
apostolakisl Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 He seems to be confused on the word "direct". You really should be using the word "manual" linking. The two switches will have the exact same linking (to each other) regardless of whether you use ISY to set up the links or do it manually at the switches. BUT, if you have an ISY, you will just be screwing things up to not use the ISY to do the links. ISY will not only link the switches to each other, but it will link them to the PLM and include the linking topography in the ISY database. Without the links included on the PLM and in the ISY database, then ISY will be out of the loop. You won't be able to see or control the lights from ISY. So that sort of defeats the whole idea of ISY. It is also just a big PITA to do it manually, especially if you want to tweak ramp rates, on levels, and stuff. And finally, if they aren't in ISY and you need to replace them or factory reset them, then you don't get to just click "restore" on ISY and be done with it. 1
arf1410 Posted December 23, 2019 Author Posted December 23, 2019 13 hours ago, apostolakisl said: He seems to be confused on the word "direct". You really should be using the word "manual" linking. The two switches will have the exact same linking (to each other) regardless of whether you use ISY to set up the links or do it manually at the switches. BUT, if you have an ISY, you will just be screwing things up to not use the ISY to do the links. ISY will not only link the switches to each other, but it will link them to the PLM and include the linking topography in the ISY database. Without the links included on the PLM and in the ISY database, then ISY will be out of the loop. You won't be able to see or control the lights from ISY. So that sort of defeats the whole idea of ISY. It is also just a big PITA to do it manually, especially if you want to tweak ramp rates, on levels, and stuff. And finally, if they aren't in ISY and you need to replace them or factory reset them, then you don't get to just click "restore" on ISY and be done with it. you may be correct. I was assuming (wrongly?) that if I followed the Smarthome linking process, the 2 switches would function as a 3-way by directly communicating with each other. No hub or external controller needed, and that if I followed the preferred process using the ISY, Switch A would not directly communicate with switch B, but only via an intermediary - ie the ISY. But are you stating my assumption is wrong? If I link via the ISY, but then unplug the ISY, the 2 switches will still function like a normal 3-way?
ThisIsTheWay Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 21 hours ago, simplextech said: For a 3 way you will not wire the second switch with a traveler like a normal 3-way switch. You will wire the first switch controlling the load just like any normal switch with a load. The second switch will be wired with power/neutral but without a load. Cap off the red wire and any remaining wire in the box. (generally the traveller). Verify the first switch is physically controlling the load correctly. Then you can link the switches either via ISY or direct that is all up to you but I recommend using the ISY as it just makes it easier. This is the method I used with the switches linked via ISY. It seemed confusing at first but the logic holds. The switching is no slower (to the human perception) than a regular 3-way switch. As others have stated, keep everything in your ISY. ISY writes the links to each device for you. You could program through your ISY then remove it and the link will still work. You may want to read up on this:
oberkc Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 1 hour ago, arf1410 said: If I link via the ISY, but then unplug the ISY, the 2 switches will still function like a normal 3-way? Correct
apostolakisl Posted December 23, 2019 Posted December 23, 2019 1 hour ago, arf1410 said: you may be correct. I was assuming (wrongly?) that if I followed the Smarthome linking process, the 2 switches would function as a 3-way by directly communicating with each other. No hub or external controller needed, and that if I followed the preferred process using the ISY, Switch A would not directly communicate with switch B, but only via an intermediary - ie the ISY. But are you stating my assumption is wrong? If I link via the ISY, but then unplug the ISY, the 2 switches will still function like a normal 3-way? As oberkc stated "correct" Any scene you create using ISY is written to the devices. A 3-way is a scene. It is a scene regardless if ISY writes the scene to the devices or if the devices write it themselves in response to all those complex paddle pushes required when doing it from the switches themselves. ISY is an intermediary between 3rd party devices and Insteon devices, not between ISY devices. The exception to that is if you are using programs to control Insteon devices. Programs of course can be used to do all sorts of things that direct Insteon to Insteon links can't do. But whenever possible, you should use scenes (direct links) as they work essentially instantly and take the least amount of resources. The only difference between a 3-way (or any scene design) created manually vs created by ISY is that the PLM is a member of the scene. But just like any other device in a scene, none of them are intermediary's. No device in a scene requires any of the other devices. So if you remove the PLM, the other devices still work the same. Just like if you have a 4-way scene, you can remove one of the switches and the other ones will still work the same.
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