Question on Future Operation if App is Discontinued

[Power Up]

I have been using Agave now for a few weeks, and reading this was hilarious, as i could not agree with you more. I had an Insteon Hub basic, it actually worked great. Then upgraded to 2 PRO Hubs which are JUNK, as i was trying to use them with HOMEWORKS on iOS to get the two buildings tied, EPIC failure.

Now ON to bigger and better things,  Did you have any luck getting one scene to control items in each of the 2 ISY units? As this is my task at hand. I think you were working on  Network Resource command ?

thanks

 

[madcodger]

User Interface problems have ALWAYS been the Achilles heel of ISY / UDI, and the discussion here illustrates the reasons behind it. I've been ranting about this for years, but it has become abundantly clear that Michel / UDI just doesn't care, which is their right. It's incredibly aggravating to many of us, but it's their company, not ours. And given the responses we see from Michel and UI developers (whom I do NOT blame), this is pretty much a standoff, with no parties willing to move and the only way out POSSIBLY being a reliance on the user community developing "standards" around it. Given the relatively small size of that community, that's extremely unlikely to happen. I know I have neither the time nor the skill to contribute.

In my opinion, UDI is a group of EXTREMELY talented people, who have developed the single best automation/IOT device on the market in terms of reliability. It is truly amazing and I give Michel and the entire crew a standing ovation for that. But their view of the importance of UI is very different from that of some (I'd argue MANY) who either are, or would be, their customers. I can't say how much that has hurt their sales, except to say that 1) I'm personally still running two other automation controllers that I WANT to replace with an ISY, simply because it would be too much of a pain to try to monitor and manage them on my phone, and 2) I've lost count of the number of people to whom I've recommended an ISY, but the user interface has turned them off. There was a time when UI wasn't very important, and "computers" were accessed via command lines with green font. That's no longer the world we live in, and most of us don't want to go back there. But Michel and UDI are still there, when it comes to UI. Go look at the UDI website and it becomes abundantly clear that they JUST. DON'T. CARE. UI to them is silly, childish fluff, unlike the "real" tech that makes things so reliable in the ISY.

Every time I write on of these posts, the hardcore fans flame back, so flame away. But what they fail to understand is that there are many of us who really, really like and appreciate Michel, UDI, and our ISY. And, we want to buy more! But we need to be able to USE those additional devices in a reasonably easy manner, and the current options for that are just not great. So, we stand here and yell, hoping things might change, even a little bit. But they never do...

[larryllix]

Have you ever used a compiler or written code for any other language?

I don't know how UDI could make it any simpler or easier  to use, and I don't think UDI does either.

How would you  improve the UI from it's already extremely simple to use, pulldown menu, programming system?

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, madcodger said:

User Interface problems have ALWAYS been the Achilles heel of ISY / UDI, and the discussion here illustrates the reasons behind it. I've been ranting about this for years, but it has become abundantly clear that Michel / UDI just doesn't care, which is their right. It's incredibly aggravating to many of us, but it's their company, not ours. And given the responses we see from Michel and UI developers (whom I do NOT blame), this is pretty much a standoff, with no parties willing to move and the only way out POSSIBLY being a reliance on the user community developing "standards" around it. Given the relatively small size of that community, that's extremely unlikely to happen. I know I have neither the time nor the skill to contribute.

In my opinion, UDI is a group of EXTREMELY talented people, who have developed the single best automation/IOT device on the market in terms of reliability. It is truly amazing and I give Michel and the entire crew a standing ovation for that. But their view of the importance of UI is very different from that of some (I'd argue MANY) who either are, or would be, their customers. I can't say how much that has hurt their sales, except to say that 1) I'm personally still running two other automation controllers that I WANT to replace with an ISY, simply because it would be too much of a pain to try to monitor and manage them on my phone, and 2) I've lost count of the number of people to whom I've recommended an ISY, but the user interface has turned them off. There was a time when UI wasn't very important, and "computers" were accessed via command lines with green font. That's no longer the world we live in, and most of us don't want to go back there. But Michel and UDI are still there, when it comes to UI. Go look at the UDI website and it becomes abundantly clear that they JUST. DON'T. CARE. UI to them is silly, childish fluff, unlike the "real" tech that makes things so reliable in the ISY.

Every time I write on of these posts, the hardcore fans flame back, so flame away. But what they fail to understand is that there are many of us who really, really like and appreciate Michel, UDI, and our ISY. And, we want to buy more! But we need to be able to USE those additional devices in a reasonably easy manner, and the current options for that are just not great. So, we stand here and yell, hoping things might change, even a little bit. But they never do...



 

No one is flaming you for your opinion. Those in disagreement simply has their own opinion and voice it. Point/counterpoint. It's ok to voice displeasure or desires but doing so in an open forum means others can chime in as well. We're not flaming or belittling anyone. We simply have a difference of opinion.

What gets me is when people say udi is losing customers when they are not. If someone wants a system that looks pretty, then that's not their customer. You can't lose something that you aren't going for. 

In fact, I'd argue it's this very openness that allows you to use the Isy with other things in order to get what you want. 

The admin console isn't pretty but it's simply there to configure and program the system. If one takes the time to plan and design their home, you would never need to look at the it unless you are making changes. Apps are an extremely inefficient way of controlling a house. With there being options, why does udi need to make an app? Do you think it will somehow be better than what's currently offered? How much prettier over mobilinc X do You think it would be? What if it's not? 

What more is there to buy that not having an app is keeping you from? What more would you buy that would benefit udi if they made an app? 

 

 

[madcodger]

And the no-conclusion / no-change debate continues..............

I am not saying they are "losing" customers, but they are definitely losing sales (some from me, for example). And, they are definitely failing to gain customers they would otherwise have, who would love the awesome reliability, but hate the UI. And, I am not even saying UDI is "wrong". I own businesses and make decisions that some potential customers might not like, so they don't select us.

But I do wish it were easier to access multiple ISYs, via mobile, and with a user interface that both worked and looked less clunky. That's all...

[simplextech]

4 minutes ago, madcodger said:

But I do wish it were easier to access multiple ISYs, via mobile, and with a user interface that both worked and looked less clunky. That's all...

Mobilinc Pro and Mobilinc X both can access multiple ISY's and they look pretty.  Is that not an option?  Or is it that you don't want to pay for it?  In that case you can run Home Assistant to provide you a pretty interface and work has recently been done to support multiple ISY's with the custom HASS component as well. 

Not trying to argue as I have my own issues with the limitations of the ISY but I have workarounds and I understand that somethings that *I* view as a limitation is actually not.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, madcodger said:

And the no-conclusion / no-change debate continues..............

I am not saying they are "losing" customers, but they are definitely losing sales (some from me, for example). And, they are definitely failing to gain customers they would otherwise have, who would love the awesome reliability, but hate the UI. And, I am not even saying UDI is "wrong". I own businesses and make decisions that some potential customers might not like, so they don't select us.

But I do wish it were easier to access multiple ISYs, via mobile, and with a user interface that both worked and looked less clunky. That's all...

Losing sales or customers is still the same. You can't lose something that you weren't going for. I do design and installs myself. When people call wanting cameras or alarm systems only, I refer them to someone else. When they call wanting TV's mounted, I refer them to someone else. Why? Those aren't my customers. Would I make more by taking everything that comes my way..... Of course, but then I'd be wasting time on smaller projects that don't pay much potentially losing my own clientele in the process. 

Udi is in the same place. They have an idea of how they want their company run along with how they envision home automation. They could make moves to appease the app crowd, wasting valuable resources in the process. Since resources are diverted, progress on other fronts more valuable to their vision slows down. Due to that, they potentially alienate their most ardent supporters just to chase a few extra customers who would probably jump ship to the next best thing

 

[larryllix]

I can see what @madcodger is saying though.

UDI may be missing a large market of plug'n play kids that want a fancy app, no programming (or very little). With that market in place, the techies may have a lot more jobs to install and service systems for the backward and tech ignorant.

I can see two veins of systems. Admin console for the programmer with it's simplified i/f, and also a fancy app, with nicely rounded corners on the boxes, see-through fly out  float across the screen, lamp bulbs, with and without filaments, and home photos with windows that light up and a barking dog, for the gen-X crowd.

Some will use both but the end result will be good for us all, and very  lucrative for UDI and support partners.

[madcodger]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Losing sales or customers is still the same. You can't lose something that you weren't going for. I do design and installs myself. When people call wanting cameras or alarm systems only, I refer them to someone else. When they call wanting TV's mounted, I refer them to someone else. Why? Those aren't my customers. Would I make more by taking everything that comes my way..... Of course, but then I'd be wasting time on smaller projects that don't pay much potentially losing my own clientele in the process. 

Udi is in the same place. They have an idea of how they want their company run along with how they envision home automation. They could make moves to appease the app crowd, wasting valuable resources in the process. Since resources are diverted, progress on other fronts more valuable to their vision slows down. Due to that, they potentially alienate their most ardent supporters just to chase a few extra customers who would probably jump ship to the next best thing

 

With most of this I cannot argue. You are correct. That said, I think I've been a decent customer, purchasing at least three devices over the past ~10 years. And, I want to buy TWO more, right now, if I can figure out how to monitor the things and make modest adjustments from my phone (which I need to do from time to time in properties that are over 500 miles apart from each other) – without it being a PITA to do so. So, look, other than being an installer, I think I'm a decent customer. We just disagree on this point. 

[madcodger]

@simplextech Thanks. Paying for something worthwhile is never an issue with me, period. More than happy to do that, especially if something "just works". An hour of my time is worth more than anything we're discussing, and a lack of aggravation and inconvenience is often worth its weight in gold. I use Orchestrated Mobilinc for my ISY now, via the UDI portal, and it's decent. It's not the "fancy kid's app" that @larryllix mentions (it's been a long time since I was called a kid, so that made me smile). And, I don't need all the "pretty" that some seem to think I'm asking for, either (you're missing the point when you assume that, folks). But as I understand it, multiple ISYs = goodbye UDI portal, if you want to use Mobilinc. PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong there!

I really liked Agave, but I just couldn't access and control some things with it, most unfortunately (can't remember exactly what now, as my trial is long over, but I do remember being sad that it looked good but had limited functionality for some things. Happy to try it again for a week, @James Peterson, if you think it would do what Mobilinc does, using the UDI portal and with multiple ISYs). I used e-Keypad with my previous Elks for years, but found it slow and clunky, frankly. I would be satisfied with Mobilinc as I have it now to monitor and control multiple devices IF 1) it didn't require that I give up the UDI portal, which I understand is the case (please correct me, anyone, if that is wrong) and 2) I could just easily switch from one property to another (one ISY to another) while using it. Let me do that, and I'll shut up and just live with that for UI, but continuing to tout the reliability of the ISY (which, again, is awesome).

 

[simplextech]

Now we're getting to the pertinent parts.  Mobile access to multiple ISY's using the UDI Portal. 

I don't know if the "new" Mobilinc X with Local Option not Mobilinc Portal would provide that or not.  You could ask @InsteonNut if that would work.... 

Not sure if Orchestrated Mobilinc would do it or not.  I think in the last version of eKeyPad Pro I was testing you could setup multiple ISY's and switch between them and this did use the UDI Portal.  It's been a while since I was testing with it.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, madcodger said:

@simplextech Thanks. Paying for something worthwhile is never an issue with me, period. More than happy to do that, especially if something "just works". An hour of my time is worth more than anything we're discussing, and a lack of aggravation and inconvenience is often worth its weight in gold. I use Orchestrated Mobilinc for my ISY now, via the UDI portal, and it's decent. It's not the "fancy kid's app" that @larryllix mentions (it's been a long time since I was called a kid, so that made me smile). And, I don't need all the "pretty" that some seem to think I'm asking for, either (you're missing the point when you assume that, folks). But as I understand it, multiple ISYs = goodbye UDI portal, if you want to use Mobilinc. PLEASE, correct me if I'm wrong there!

<snipped>

 

I think your original, and distracted?, point was that, not yourself necessarily, but there is another style of crowd that could be using ISY, if it had a fancy App and easy to use interface for the crowd on the other side of the tracks. Some of that crowd are people that may require setup and installation from an ISY professional, but probably have a lot more money that the "hackers/pioneers" on this side of the tracks.

[lilyoyo1]

3 hours ago, madcodger said:

With most of this I cannot argue. You are correct. That said, I think I've been a decent customer, purchasing at least three devices over the past ~10 years. And, I want to buy TWO more, right now, if I can figure out how to monitor the things and make modest adjustments from my phone (which I need to do from time to time in properties that are over 500 miles apart from each other) – without it being a PITA to do so. So, look, other than being an installer, I think I'm a decent customer. We just disagree on this point. 

I get what you are saying and for some folks in your situation, apps could be a good thing. However, even if udi were to create something, there's no guarantee they would include the capability of controlling 3+ Isy's from it anyway. Since app design and uses are personal choices, regardless how handled, it won't appease someone. For your situation, udi would still need to with the extra programming and resources needed to control a multitude of Isy's vs 1 or 2. If the need for it isn't enough to warrant the cost, you'd still be in the same boat along with udi wasting resources

[madcodger]

3 hours ago, larryllix said:

I think your original, and distracted?, point was that, not yourself necessarily, but there is another style of crowd that could be using ISY, if it had a fancy App and easy to use interface for the crowd on the other side of the tracks. Some of that crowd are people that may require setup and installation from an ISY professional, but probably have a lot more money that the "hackers/pioneers" on this side of the tracks.

Let me summarize for you"

1) UDI doesn't care about the quality of a user interface, and it shows. Badly.They won't even support the development of standards/boundaries that make the development of better user interfaces possible, as evidenced by earlier comments in the thread. That's their choice, but...

2) This causes problems for current users who want to buy more from them because a prerequisite of multiple ISYs is often the ability to monitor and control them from a mobile device. But in large part because of #1 above, no third party developer is really investing in creating a better mobile user interface.

3) This is definitely costing them some sales. I can prove this, because I haven't purchased as many ISYs as I otherwise would, and know of at least some others who haven't purchased because the UI is so bad. I agree we cannot know the full extent of this, and it's UDI's right to simply not care. But there is some degree of sales loss – even if tiny – because I still have that money in my accounts, not UDI's.

4) I don't need the degree of "fancy" you allege. I'd be thrilled with Agave if it could do what Mobilinc does, or with Mobilinc if it would work with multiple ISYs and the UDI portal. That's not a lot to ask.

 

 

 

[dbuss]

I use Agave and Mobilinc with multiple ISYs and UDI Portal. I do not use the Mobilinc portal. It's worked very well for me when needed. However, I don't use either one very often. Usually only when I'm away and want to check on something or make a change to a device.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, madcodger said:

Let me summarize for you"

1) UDI doesn't care about the quality of a user interface, and it shows. Badly.They won't even support the development of standards/boundaries that make the development of better user interfaces possible, as evidenced by earlier comments in the thread. That's their choice, but...

2) This causes problems for current users who want to buy more from them because a prerequisite of multiple ISYs is often the ability to monitor and control them from a mobile device. But in large part because of #1 above, no third party developer is really investing in creating a better mobile user interface.

3) This is definitely costing them some sales. I can prove this, because I haven't purchased as many ISYs as I otherwise would, and know of at least some others who haven't purchased because the UI is so bad. I agree we cannot know the full extent of this, and it's UDI's right to simply not care. But there is some degree of sales loss – even if tiny – because I still have that money in my accounts, not UDI's.

4) I don't need the degree of "fancy" you allege. I'd be thrilled with Agave if it could do what Mobilinc does, or with Mobilinc if it would work with multiple ISYs and the UDI portal. That's not a lot to ask.

 

 

 

1) theyve already stated their position so its known. At least they are upfront with where they stand vs empty promises.

2) Who is there to say UDI would create a better interface? Interfaces is a subjective matter. There will be lovers of whatever they make and there will be detractors. To act as if they do something it will then be perfect is a joke. There is zero guarantee they would match or even come close to what is already offered.

3) As I continuously state, they havent lost anything. You can claim they lost something had you moved to using another company but since you havent, they havent.....you simply havent spent the money yet. By not moving away from ISY to something else, they havent lost. Its akin to buying stock. If the market drops and you dont sell while its low, you havent lost your money. The value may not be there but you havent lost anything until you sell. 

4) Multiple people have now stated you can do multiple isys. If mobilinc doesnt do the amount you need that is one thing. However, even if UDI created an interface, there is no guarantee they would support more than what is supported now.

[Javi]

@madcodger while it is against my better judgement to get into hypothetical decisions, and even more against my better judgement to do it on a sub forum for which it is not intended; connecting to multiple ISY simultaneously is very possible. However, how many resources will the platform (iOS/Android) allow me to use? How much bandwidth do you have consistently? Are you willing to leave the socket(s) open, or run a service which tries to predict when you will open the app which will use your data/battery? 

My Home ISY has about 350 nodes (not including programs/variables),  it can take anywhere from 3 to 30 seconds to receive updates from the socket and insert into a mobile database. This time is dependent on resource allowed by the platform, internet speeds/speed bumps, and the rate at which the ISY/portal provides the updates. Now multiply time by the number of ISYs (nodes) to which you wish to connect. 

When will the user experience become unbearable or cost prohibited?

Now that I have went against my better judgment. I will stop. Please open another thread for UI debates/suggestions in a location where all developers/users can provide useful feedback, suggestions and limitations.

 

 

[madcodger]

Fair enough. Standing down.