Insteon KPL "always on" switch

[btsea]

I'm brewing a plan to replace fix my poor hybrid smart home setup of old Insteon that works reliably and crappy Phillips Hue bulbs and switches. But I want to keep the Hue bulbs. It's mostly Phillips' unreliable switches that drive me nuts...

Anyhow, is it possible to program an 8-button KPL such that button "A" (for mains) is in "toggle-on" mode, and never actually cuts the power to the physical light fixture it's controlling? I tested this out with my only currently installed KPL, and sure enough, it prevents me from making the button appear off. But I can't tell what it's doing to the line power because the switch previously controlled an outlet, and I pulled the wire on it so the KPL doesn't actually control the outlet.

If that's not the case, any other ideas from folks? I want to put a KPL on a ceiling fixture and have buttons control the Hue bulbs via the network module (tested this out, it's working pretty well), however, I want the ceiling fixture to always be powered on so the KPL issues commands directly to the Hue bulbs to turn on/off etc. For this to work, I need button "A" to not be able to actually turn off the line power to the fixture.

 

Thanks

[dbwarner5]

There are two options you can explore for this. 

1) Keep power going to the KPL but bypass the switch to the light so the the light has constant power (cap off the red wire from the switch and attach the load from the light to the black incoming to the switch, hence giving the light constant power while also giving power to the switch). Then use the A button as part of a scene or program to control the hue light. The positive of this is that the hue has power 100% of the time. The negative of this is that it has power 100% of the time and could be a safety issue, ie changing bulb etc. 

2) Leave your wiring as it is, but write a program such that if the KPL light switch is turned off, the switch will turn back on and a command is then sent to the hue bulb to turn it off. Positive of this is the safety factor. The negative is that the hue bulb will "blink".

I chose to use number 2.  The program is simple. I am using resource command to turn the hue off., 

Mbed Doug reading On - [ID 01CD][Parent 01CF]

If
        'MBed Reading Doug' is switched Off
 
Then
        Set 'MBed Reading Doug' Fast On
        Wait  2 seconds
        Resource 'Doug's Reading Off'

Additionally, I have added a series of programs that will cycle the hue light through 5 different settings each time I press the on button at the switch. Here is an example of the first two and the reset program. 

Mbed Doug reading 1 - [ID 01C8][Parent 01CF]

If
        'MBed Reading Doug' is switched On
 
Then
        Resource 'Doug's Reading on bright'
        Enable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 2 LD'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 1'

Mbed Doug reading 2 LD - [ID 01C9][Parent 01CF][Not Enabled]

If
        'MBed Reading Doug' is switched On
 
Then
        Resource 'Doug's Reading on full bright'
        Enable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 3 LD'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 2 LD'

Mbed Doug reading reset loop - [ID 01CE][Parent 01CF]

If
        Time is  1:00:00AM
     Or 'MBed Reading Doug' is switched Off
 
Then
        Enable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 1'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 2 LD'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 3 LD'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 5 LD'
        Disable Program 'Mbed Doug reading 5 LD'
 
Depending on your needs / interests you could modify these programs so they are "time dependent" for cycling to the next one etc. 

Hope this gives you some ideas. if you search the forum for hues, you will see similar discussions.

[oberkc]

8 hours ago, btsea said:

Anyhow, is it possible to program an 8-button KPL such that button "A" (for mains) is in "toggle-on" mode, and never actually cuts the power to the physical light fixture it's controlling?

Keypad buttons have a couple of options: toggle, non-toggle (on), and non-toggle (off).  The non-toggle (on) mode will cause the keypad button to always turn on when pressed.  I use this mode on a couple of buttons, but I have never used it on a primary button A.  

Understand, too, that these "non-toggle" buttons could still be turned off by the ISY or by being a responder to a scene.

I am not sure what benefit this has to simply providing unswitched power to the ceiling fixture.

Edited March 3, 2020 by oberkc

[lilyoyo1]

I would take option 1 from dbwarner5 and run constant power to your lights. It's much cleaner this way and less confusion for others this way. While there is some risk such as when changing bulbs, you can always throw the breaker if that's an issue for you. You can then either use network resources or the hue nodeserver to turn lights on/off. 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by lilyoyo1

[dbwarner5]

10 hours ago, dbwarner5 said:

 

2) Leave your wiring as it is, but write a program such that if the KPL light switch is turned off, the switch will turn back on and a command is then sent to the hue bulb to turn it off. Positive of this is the safety factor. The negative is that the hue bulb will "blink".

 

One additional point, to "manage" the blink, in the HUE app, you can set the power on setting. I have set mine to a very dim red. So when the Insteon switch is switched off manually, the power is cut to the hue, then the isy, turns the switch back on, giving power again to the hue, which will then cause it to turn on, followed by the isy turning the hue off, per my program. This "on" of the hue is a very dim, quick flash of red. 

Again, either way works. As lilyoyo1 has pointed out, option one is much simpler. Honestly, I actually set mine up under option two somewhat for safety, but also because I have been too lazy to open up both switches and rewire them.. lol... 

[btsea]

Thanks for all the responses.

I am specifically avoiding option 1. While I realize it's potentially the easiest (and the reason I disconnected the switch I mentioned from the outlet), doing so with a light fixture is against code. While I agree the safety risk is very near 0, I still like to try and keep my electrical changes up to code.

Sounds like a program to handle it is the way to go then.

I also like the idea of using a program and custom power on setting. I'll have to think about what that might look like some more.

 

[oberkc]

Code violation!?  There are many, many houses with constant power to the fixture.  Most of those use a switch loop to control the light, but some have a simple pull chain.  There are codes requiring switches at certain locations, but these codes seem more concerned with being able to see at night rather than the inherent safety of the electrical system .

 I would definitley be interested in knowing what code violation this would be.

[lilyoyo1]

30 minutes ago, btsea said:

Thanks for all the responses.

I am specifically avoiding option 1. While I realize it's potentially the easiest (and the reason I disconnected the switch I mentioned from the outlet), doing so with a light fixture is against code. While I agree the safety risk is very near 0, I still like to try and keep my electrical changes up to code.

Sounds like a program to handle it is the way to go then.

I also like the idea of using a program and custom power on setting. I'll have to think about what that might look like some more.

 

I've never seen a code that would prevent you from doing that.

The only thing that would be wrong with a kpl controlling an outlet would be if you were using a dimmable kpl. That would be a violation

[larryllix]

Code violation!?  There are many, many houses with constant power to the fixture.  Most of those use a switch loop to control the light, but some have a simple pull chain.  There are codes requiring switches at certain locations, but these codes seem more concerned with being able to see at night rather than the inherent safety of the electrical system .
 I would definitley be interested in knowing what code violation this would be.

Those devices kill the socket when you change the the bulb and comply with safety rules.

A live socket without a visible or lockable disconnect device is a safety hazard.

Power to the fixture but not the socket.

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[dbwarner5]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

A live socket without a visible or lockable disconnect device is a safety hazard.

Power to the fixture but not the socket.
 

That is my case. The lights are cans in the ceiling over the bed for reading /spot lights on each side. No optional power disconnect besides at the switches, and hence my reluctance and laziness not to hot wire the sockets by bypassing the switch. While the ISY automatically turns the switch back on, and hence giving power to the cans at all times, the stop-gap pull tab at the bottom of the Insteon switch allows me to safely disconnect power any time I feel the need to do so, quickly and effectively. 

As in most things in life, no perfect answer,  just choices and tradeoffs.  Cheers.

[larryllix]

That is my case. The lights are cans in the ceiling over the bed for reading /spot lights on each side. No optional power disconnect besides at the switches, and hence my reluctance and laziness not to hot wire the sockets by bypassing the switch. While the ISY automatically turns the switch back on, and hence giving power to the cans at all times, the stop-gap pull tab at the bottom of the Insteon switch allows me to safely disconnect power any time I feel the need to do so, quickly and effectively. 

As in most things in life, no perfect answer,  just choices and tradeoffs.  Cheers.

Maybe I didn't read the rest of thread details but if you attempt to put an Insteon device downstream from a dimming device you may be asking for signal problems.

 

Even the rf signals of Insteon depend on having a clean sine wave and dimmers can destroy that even at 100% setting.

 

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[dbwarner5]

15 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Maybe I didn't read the rest of thread details but if you attempt to put an Insteon device downstream from a dimming device you may be asking for signal problems.

hmm.. interesting. My Insteon switch on one is 6 button KPL, the other is a basic Insteon dimmer switch. Yes, the Hues are dimmable downstream from them, but I never dim the Insteon switches. They are only on via a Fast On to full power. I havent had problems with these yet that I am aware of, but I agree, it would be better if these were on/offs vs dimmable. 

Is this what you meant? This is beyond my technical skills / knowledge. Should I change these out for on/offs for long term issues? thanks.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, dbwarner5 said:

hmm.. interesting. My Insteon switch on one is 6 button KPL, the other is a basic Insteon dimmer switch. Yes, the Hues are dimmable downstream from them, but I never dim the Insteon switches. They are only on via a Fast On to full power. I havent had problems with these yet that I am aware of, but I agree, it would be better if these were on/offs vs dimmable. 

Is this what you meant? This is beyond my technical skills / knowledge. Should I change these out for on/offs for long term issues? thanks

I've never had an issue with insteon dimmers and hue devices. If it were me, I wouldn't worry about it

[oberkc]

18 hours ago, larryllix said:

Those devices kill the socket when you change the the bulb and comply with safety rules.

Ah.  I was unaware of that code.  Thanks.

[larryllix]

16 hours ago, dbwarner5 said:

hmm.. interesting. My Insteon switch on one is 6 button KPL, the other is a basic Insteon dimmer switch. Yes, the Hues are dimmable downstream from them, but I never dim the Insteon switches. They are only on via a Fast On to full power. I havent had problems with these yet that I am aware of, but I agree, it would be better if these were on/offs vs dimmable. 

Is this what you meant? This is beyond my technical skills / knowledge. Should I change these out for on/offs for long term issues? thanks.

Hue bulbs are not Insteon but proprietary ZigBee signals and do not depend on the waveform of the powerline voltage. 

[larryllix]

35 minutes ago, oberkc said:

Ah.  I was unaware of that code.  Thanks.

I couldn't tell you the actual paragraph. I don't know the US one and it's been a long time for the Canuck one. I just remember the image painted to us...changing a broken bulb while standing in water in the dark.