The need for a better user interface for ISY. Does it exist?

[larryllix]

I want a really complex interface with all the bells and whistles but it should be really simple to use without any hidden devices and only take one click to set up my whole house and repairs itself and builds more devices automatically!  
OMG! I will be starting Skynet!!

I was thinking of a 400 page manual with troubleshooting charts if I should "kick the bucket (Skynet attack?) " but I know my children will say...

".... you mean you want me to push buttons? Man!  Dad really was senile!"

Edited March 25, 2020 by larryllix

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I want a really complex interface with all the bells and whistles but it should be really simple to use without any hidden devices and only take one click to set up my whole house and repairs itself and builds more devices automatically!  
OMG! I will be starting Skynet!!

I was thinking of a 400 page manual with troubleshooting charts if I should "kick the bucket (Skynet attack?) " but I know my children will say...

".... you mean you want me to push buttons? Man!  Dad really was senile!"

So what you're actually saying is you want a RTI or Control4 system installed and maintained for you by someone else.  Ok not a problem we have you covered... do you have your check book and heart medicine ready?

 

[larryllix]

13 minutes ago, simplextech said:

So what you're actually saying is you want a RTI or Control4 system installed and maintained for you by someone else.  Ok not a problem we have you covered... do you have your check book and heart medicine ready?

 

No. I want something reliable that I don't have to hide in a closet with automation features.  

Finally! A system that you take with you when you move!  

Edited March 25, 2020 by larryllix

[simplextech]

Just now, larryllix said:

No. I want something reliable that I don't have to hide in a closet with automation features.  

I'm not sure what you're hiding in a closet or who... I'm out of this one.

[Javi]

@madcodger,  Thanks for posting this in a location where all can/will comment.  

As a UI developer I would like to make the UI better for both the Geeks and the Novices.  Unfortunately this topic finds me at a difficult time with work and assisting my wife with home schooling of our children because of COVID-19.

When I have time I will post questions and limitations.

[madcodger]

13 hours ago, carealtor said:

I find this statement curious.  I'm certainly no Linux programmer, but I've been loving the Home Assistant product for awhile now.  The last few updates have significantly improved the ability of average geeks like myself to create some really great "dashboards".

I really don't want to offend anyone, but it seems to me the desire here is to "reinvent the wheel".  The wheel has already been invented, and it is Home Assistant.  (IMHO) 

This is very helpful. As I noted in my original post, my Home Assistant comment was based on comments I had read in the forum (references to "after a little Linux programming...") as I have admittedly not tried Home Assistant yet. So, I plan to do so. Thanks for noting your experience. 

[madcodger]

9 hours ago, Javi said:

@madcodger,  Thanks for posting this in a location where all can/will comment.  

As a UI developer I would like to make the UI better for both the Geeks and the Novices.  Unfortunately this topic finds me at a difficult time with work and assisting my wife with home schooling of our children because of COVID-19.

When I have time I will post questions and limitations.

Thanks! Please let me know when you're ready as I am happy to help as I'm able. Best of luck with getting through this COVID-19 mess. We no longer have kids at home but our employees who do are finding this to be a very challenging time. We've told them to please take an hour or two during work time each day (everyone is now WFH) to work on this, as the burden is so great. When this is over and you want to think about a solution, I'm all ears.

Edited March 25, 2020 by madcodger

[madcodger]

So, mission accomplished on the conversation starter. Excellent, and thanks to all. And only one real "Here we go again" reply. Not bad at all.

To clarify a point or two from my original post, there is no way I want to base any UI/front-end on anything other than a UDI product. Whether the ISY994, Polisy (assuming it becomes the main product), or something else UDI launches, I'm pitching my tent here in terms of the hardware and core firmware. I've tried SmartThings for the past two years in a small office building we own, and while functioning better now than in the past it's still not nearly as reliable as the ISY. I got into HA with HomeSeer years ago and still have three licenses for their products, plus upgrades to their latest, HS4. To be blunt, I find it unreliable these days, at least in a small form factor that I desire (e.g., their Zee S2, which runs on a RPi). After a lot of experimentation, NOTHING has come close to the reliability of my ISY994s, so that's that. Dating days are over, for me, and I'm fine with settling down. Now, how to make things even better?

And that's the reason for my original post... I don't have the tech skills to even remotely approach this, and I don't know that I want to be responsible for a kickstarter campaign as I've never done one, and don't really want to be the "company" behind this (hard enough to run the ones I have, these days). What I am hoping to do is help "light a match" to get a better interface going, EVEN IF IT IS JUST AN IMPROVEMENT ON WHAT'S AVAILABLE TODAY. Frankly, I thought Agave ( @James Peterson, I believe) was a beautiful interface, but it didn't "register" many of my devices, so it just wasn't workable (which was a bummer, frankly). I'm not sure where it stands today in terms of support. I've found Wes ( @InsteonNut / Mobilinc) to be incredibly dedicated and helpful and I was excited to try Mobilinc X, but it is not yet ready for Z wave and had some design choices I didn't quite understand. But if either of these folks wanted to develop something else, or perhaps a fork to their existing systems, I'd be all ears to hearing what might be required in terms of support from the "community" here. @Javi has expressed interest in this area, as well, once we're through the current COVID-19 mess.

The bottom line is that I love the reliability of my ISY, and I think that's the common denominator for almost all of us here. The Polisy will presumably be just as reliable. So, that's a good starting point. We all have very solid hardware and firmware. But... it's not very easy or intuitive for some of us, or our spouses, etc., to use on a day-to-day basis, when we're not sitting at a computer (and even that's challenging, with Java still at the core of that experience).I realize that some won't agree with that statement, and that's OK. But I'd ask them to please "exit the bus" of this conversation now, please. Nothing in your world will need to change, and this thread / POTENTIAL effort is obviously not for you. So, to be polite, you "go play your music", and we'll play ours. We can all coexist, but let's not try to do so in the same room.

For those that remain (which I think includes most people participating in this thread), I will say that I am personally interested in something that works with Z-wave and iOS. That's not to say that Insteon and Android couldn't be supported, of course! But for me personally, I've exited Insteon going forward and use only iOS for a mobile platform. So, given that I started this thread, those are my admittedly selfish requests. I'll also note that monitoring sensors (doors, leaks, temps, and by "monitoring" I mean just looking at them to see that all is well when I'm hundreds of miles away) represent an even bigger part of my personal use than just turning lights on and off, although I certainly do that, too. Again, a selfish request, but lack of support for Z wave sensors is what got this thread started in the first place.

So... All that said, do any developers/coders who are somewhat regulars here, and who have the skills needed to create a better mobile user interface to the ISY994 as (admittedly vaguely) referenced here, have an interest in this? If so, what's the time and money likely necessary to advance this? Absolutely no guarantee that anything can or will happen, but we may as well get this conversation started as a community, given that there is at least some interest. And that's why I created the initial post - to create a place where we MIGHT be able to start sizing/scoping this.

And finally, just calling out that I started this thread to @Michel Kohanim as a courtesy. I completely understand that UDI is not interested in this as any part of its business model, and I respect that. Michel and I have had a number of conversations about this "user interface thing" in the forum over the years, and I now understand that they have other fish to fry. But if anything related to the ISY994 does spring up as a result of this discussion in the forum, Michel and UDI must be kept informed, in my view. They've been fantastic with support and in building the world's most reliable automation product for all of us, and anything that might get developed should be fully supportive of that. Personally, I don't see this as a business except for the developer who creates "it" (if an "it" ever exists) and wants to either recoup their costs or, if they choose, make a profit from it. All I want is a better user interface...

Edited March 25, 2020 by madcodger

[larryllix]

Wait until polisy goes to an HTML5 / CSS interface. Then we should have webpage writers popping out of our yinyangs with alternate UIs for your favourite browser.

[asbril]

23 minutes ago, madcodger said:

They've been fantastic with support and in building the world's most reliable automation product for all of us

Yes

[madcodger]

18 minutes ago, larryllix said:

for your favourite browser.

This is the non-starter for me. I need a mobile app, even if that app is basically a front end to a browser.

[larryllix]

7 minutes ago, madcodger said:

This is the non-starter for me. I need a mobile app, even if that app is basically a front end to a browser.

Sure. Some people will like to write their own specialised browser and call it an "app".

[madcodger]

13 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Sure. Some people will like to write their own specialised browser and call it an "app".

Or buy it, which I'm happy to do if it's what I need. But good point.

[HABit]

@madcodger Parsing the serious contributions from the social chat comments. I believe there are those interested in a better interface to the ISY, probably many more than commented on this thread. Like you having several companies, I have just completed the selling of my corp, one division of which vended information management systems (business workflow automation) for enterprise management. As such we were presented with a never-ending litany of user interface requirements, as every business entity wanted a certain presentation and level of automation in conducting their sales, ordering, mfg., etc., operations. We realized we needed to be able to “customize” the user experience, and even the front end functionality without incurring a giant re-engineering cost for each sale (plus trying to maintain each version was implausible). We also determined that the core functions were not differing by much, if at all, and we just needed that flexibility in the front layer and UI.

This is a long-winded way of saying that this is almost the identical challenge the ISY has: HA is as custom as the user’s focus/desires/goals. The Admin Console was conceived as a maintenance tool, and if you look closely, you can see just how much effort has gone into it. There is a lot of functionality there and some automation of features like linking and replacing an Insteon device, that are very handy. But in all fairness, I believe it was created as a means to an end since UDI’s focus is creating an automation controller, and they have understood the evolving goals of their task brilliantly. Ver 5 of the firmware shows the evolutionary arc of goal understanding, and now they are heading for the brass ring (IMO).

My interests are to create a new Admin Console that includes the ability to have a user interface to operate devices, or to perform user-written (or open-sourced) plug-in automations. It doesn’t diverge from your goal of a better mobile UI, because the core of the Admin Console needs to be written as objects exposing core management functionalities (maybe this already exists in java code). Once you have those, then a mobile UI can be created using the same core objects (or more accurately interfaces to these objects). 

That is the reason for suggesting .NET since it is both multi platform (Windows. Mac, Linux), and multi-device (IOS, Android). I am looking into creating a mobile app for IOS, and started to use Xcode (just C/C++ with some pre-spun objects, macros, etc), but then realized that in reality, just like the course correction from from V4.x to V5.x/Node based operation, the UI should be updated to a more open (or at least API open) configuration. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to the low-level device operational understanding of the ISY to be able to form a good strategic project definition, but can at least layout operating goals to make a determination whether there is a benefit, length of development, and some sort of feasibility, using the open interface available now (ie. REST, poly).

So to understand what I’m talking about. My concept is to use whatever UI objects (formerly called Controls) .NET will interface with (even though the bottom layer objects will vary among different platforms, the .NET interface handles this pretty well to provide a pretty standardized interface), adding a light layer of object manipulation to let an end user place, or move controls around on a blank window/screen. UI objects are buttons, lists, trees, sliders, images, etc. UI objects would “connect” with whatever the end-user wanted (Device Action, Device/Scene/Program/Var, etc database, etc), to effect the behavior of the UIO, or initiate some ISY action with one of its elements (vars, progs, device/node, etc.). Without any forethought about details, I would guess the mechanism to link controls/UIO’s to data/actions, would be by a simple script, similar to what the ISY Admin Console has now. But there may be a way to provide more automation to make the connections of UIO’s to ISY objects.

Once you have the ISY objects and UI objects wrapped so that they are easy to connect, exporting the operation to mobile devices could be accomplished thus extending the ability of the UI designer to a mobile device. Another component of this development would be to expose the ISY and UI objects in an API, to allow Admin Console plugin’s to provide custom automations. Anyone wanting to understand the power of this concept (not new by any means), should look at the Visual Studio IDE, a public domain editor/debugging platform for almost all popular programming languages. Many powerful, free plug-ins exist for almost every type of task (debugging, lint, etc.)

Anyway, these are my ramblings of a potential ISY UI platform. I truly believe that for any successful project some kind of cooperation, perhaps just in information from UDI under a NDA, etc, will be essential to allow it to succeed. I just painted broad brush strokes here, so yes, admittedly a bunch of details are not included, however, again, just my two cents about how this project could be structured and implemented.

 

[oberkc]

The only interface that could interest me would be something I could run on a small android tablet mounted to a wall in a couple of key places.  It would replace some keypads I have already mounted in those key places.  I don't need access to the entire system or every device, but would not mind a touch screen control panel that I can easily configure that would provide control for eight or ten key devices or scenes.  Until then, I will continue to use the keypads.

[HABit]

Also let me say that last night I was LMAO with the comments about manuals, wills, directives, etc. I felt like I was hearing myself speak/looking in a mirror. Then there was the time I sold a house loaded with automation and the resulting 3 binder set of manuals including all of the subscriptions that needed to be maintained, accounts that had to be established, etc. It made me realize that not many in HA industry produce products requiring subscriptions, with portability in mind.

Must say that on this Forum I have seen a tremendously diverse group of highly talented and innovative people. It has been refreshing to read the many ingenious solutions that have been created by HA folks here.

Best Regards to you all.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, madcodger said:

So, mission accomplished on the conversation starter. Excellent, and thanks to all. And only one real "Here we go again" reply. Not bad at all.

To clarify a point or two from my original post, there is no way I want to base any UI/front-end on anything other than a UDI product. Whether the ISY994, Polisy (assuming it becomes the main product), or something else UDI launches, I'm pitching my tent here in terms of the hardware and core firmware. I've tried SmartThings for the past two years in a small office building we own, and while functioning better now than in the past it's still not nearly as reliable as the ISY. I got into HA with HomeSeer years ago and still have three licenses for their products, plus upgrades to their latest, HS4. To be blunt, I find it unreliable these days, at least in a small form factor that I desire (e.g., their Zee S2, which runs on a RPi). After a lot of experimentation, NOTHING has come close to the reliability of my ISY994s, so that's that. Dating days are over, for me, and I'm fine with settling down. Now, how to make things even better?

And that's the reason for my original post... I don't have the tech skills to even remotely approach this, and I don't know that I want to be responsible for a kickstarter campaign as I've never done one, and don't really want to be the "company" behind this (hard enough to run the ones I have, these days). What I am hoping to do is help "light a match" to get a better interface going, EVEN IF IT IS JUST AN IMPROVEMENT ON WHAT'S AVAILABLE TODAY. Frankly, I thought Agave ( @James Peterson, I believe) was a beautiful interface, but it didn't "register" many of my devices, so it just wasn't workable (which was a bummer, frankly). I'm not sure where it stands today in terms of support. I've found Wes ( @InsteonNut / Mobilinc) to be incredibly dedicated and helpful and I was excited to try Mobilinc X, but it is not yet ready for Z wave and had some design choices I didn't quite understand. But if either of these folks wanted to develop something else, or perhaps a fork to their existing systems, I'd be all ears to hearing what might be required in terms of support from the "community" here. @Javi has expressed interest in this area, as well, once we're through the current COVID-19 mess.

The bottom line is that I love the reliability of my ISY, and I think that's the common denominator for almost all of us here. The Polisy will presumably be just as reliable. So, that's a good starting point. We all have very solid hardware and firmware. But... it's not very easy or intuitive for some of us, or our spouses, etc., to use on a day-to-day basis, when we're not sitting at a computer (and even that's challenging, with Java still at the core of that experience).I realize that some won't agree with that statement, and that's OK. But I'd ask them to please "exit the bus" of this conversation now, please. Nothing in your world will need to change, and this thread / POTENTIAL effort is obviously not for you. So, to be polite, you "go play your music", and we'll play ours. We can all coexist, but let's not try to do so in the same room.

For those that remain (which I think includes most people participating in this thread), I will say that I am personally interested in something that works with Z-wave and iOS. That's not to say that Insteon and Android couldn't be supported, of course! But for me personally, I've exited Insteon going forward and use only iOS for a mobile platform. So, given that I started this thread, those are my admittedly selfish requests. I'll also note that monitoring sensors (doors, leaks, temps, and by "monitoring" I mean just looking at them to see that all is well when I'm hundreds of miles away) represent an even bigger part of my personal use than just turning lights on and off, although I certainly do that, too. Again, a selfish request, but lack of support for Z wave sensors is what got this thread started in the first place.

So... All that said, do any developers/coders who are somewhat regulars here, and who have the skills needed to create a better mobile user interface to the ISY994 as (admittedly vaguely) referenced here, have an interest in this? If so, what's the time and money likely necessary to advance this? Absolutely no guarantee that anything can or will happen, but we may as well get this conversation started as a community, given that there is at least some interest. And that's why I created the initial post - to create a place where we MIGHT be able to start sizing/scoping this.

And finally, just calling out that I started this thread to @Michel Kohanim as a courtesy. I completely understand that UDI is not interested in this as any part of its business model, and I respect that. Michel and I have had a number of conversations about this "user interface thing" in the forum over the years, and I now understand that they have other fish to fry. But if anything related to the ISY994 does spring up as a result of this discussion in the forum, Michel and UDI must be kept informed, in my view. They've been fantastic with support and in building the world's most reliable automation product for all of us, and anything that might get developed should be fully supportive of that. Personally, I don't see this as a business except for the developer who creates "it" (if an "it" ever exists) and wants to either recoup their costs or, if they choose, make a profit from it. All I want is a better user interface...

My problem isn't necessarily the repeated conversations about the same topic. I think debates are great in that it gives others a chance to understand what users are looking for.

What gets to me is the repeated conversations from those complaining but aren't taking any initiative to try and make something happen. Take @simplextech, he wanted what he did for his house He took the time to reach out to CQC and UDI in hopes of them getting to talk and hopefully partner up. Unfortunately that didn't happen. However, instead of simply complaining constantly, he took time to try and make things happen. Others on the other hand.....simply complain

UDI has been very clear about their stance. They've even offered to help donate to the cause. Yet not a single person who complains has taken the initiative to work with udi to set up a Kickstarter campaign or even a donate page on the forums so that a developer knows they would be compensated for their time and effort.

Out of all the complainers, how many have even personally reach out to one of the developers here to see what can be done and for how much? Who has reach out to udi saying with your permission in going to take these steps to raise money? If any has, then kudos to them. Should it happen, I'll even donate. We'll see how many others follow suit

[oberkc]

31 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

What gets to me is the repeated conversations from those complaining but aren't taking any initiative to try and make something happen.

That does not bother me so much.  Many of us complain about features or lack thereof on a variety of products.  We complain about iPads or Android.  We complain about certain cars.  We complain about grocery stores.  We complain about restaurants.  I doubt that there is a business or product that meets all of everyones needs and desires.

I don't expect complainer to fix the problem.  I also suspect that most who have commented are doing so with the intentions of being helpful.  Our recourse is not to redesign the product of another, but to spend our money wisely and patronize those businesses that best meet our needs for the best price.  

[gviliunas]

FWIW... I replaced all of my generation-1 Insteon motion sensors ~ 5 years ago. Before doing that, I experienced the "All ON" problem ~ monthly. Since retiring those sensors, I haven't experienced any "All ONs." I still have 17 other battery devices and 2 KPLs in my system. 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, oberkc said:

That does not bother me so much.  Many of us complain about features or lack thereof on a variety of products.  We complain about iPads or Android.  We complain about certain cars.  We complain about grocery stores.  We complain about restaurants.  I doubt that there is a business or product that meets all of everyones needs and desires.

I don't expect complainer to fix the problem.  I also suspect that most who have commented are doing so with the intentions of being helpful.  Our recourse is not to redesign the product of another, but to spend our money wisely and patronize those businesses that best meet our needs for the best price.  

I agree with you. The only thing I disagree with is that it's not on them to fix the problem. With UDI stating their position and offering up a compromise, no one has stepped up to work towards a solution. Unlike dealing with Samsung, Google or apple; this is a small community. We all have some capability to effect change. We can either try and do something about what we don't like or continuously complain about it. Unfortunately most of what we get is the latter.

[Michel Kohanim]

Hello all,

Thanks again for this discussion.

@carealtor , I would be interested in talking to whomever has developed HASS.IO UI and even paythem (as long as it's not subscription based) for a custom version for ISY. What I will not be willing to do is to officially ask our customers to install HASS.IO and then have to deal with supporting something that we do not control, especially if installed on Polisy. You might also want to check House Panel which is extremely promising and has full integration with ISY V5 + Polisy (I have tested it myself). Actually, HP is the only UI that does not depend on hard coded types and fully utilizes node server concepts. So, kudos to @kewashi.

@madcodger, I understand all your points and, if we had unlimited resources, we would not be having these conversations.

@SeeGreen, I very much like your way of describing things. And, you don't really need an NDA for what you are asking as all of them are already available in the WSDK in the form of XML Schemas. And, if there's something missing, please do let me know and I'd be delighted to provide you whatever is necessary.

With kind regards,
Michel

[HABit]

@Michel Kohanim Thanks for your reply. As you state - availability of WSDK; I am already discovering the wealth of documentation UDI has provided and it encouraged me greatly this afternoon. I'm just trying to scope the development and feasibility. .NET uses Xamarin forms for Android and IOS platforms, and the Xamarin SDK for Mac. I haven't worked with Xamarin, but in Windows .NET uses native .NET objects for the UI layer. which I do know, so think they will be similar. Also need to check what kind of license this would be available under. I know they provide the IDE and libs for free, but knowing Microsoft (was MSSP), they may want $$ for commercial use. If made available for no cost to end users, then maybe OK.

Thanks for your offer to help with info. Can't ask for anything more than that.

[oberkc]

4 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

this is a small community.

Well, I suspect this is why it has not happened.  It takes more resources to complete and sustain than would be available from such a small community.  

[madcodger]

Very happy the conversation is continuing to evolve.

@SeeGreen Excellent observations from an experienced and knowledgeable user. You far exceed me in the technical knowledge department. At this point, please feel to reach out if I can play some role to assist. I'm happy to provide a little money towards licenses, etc., if needed. Just PM me. I do think UDI is working toward a new admin console, but Michel knows that and I do not. So, perhaps he can provide more info to you directly.

@Michel Kohanim Yup! I completely understand you folks cannot do everything, which is why I started this thread. My thought is that MAYBE the user community can help. We shall see... Thanks for the ideas and guidance here, and for making a great product. Perhaps @kewashi would also like to become involved in this, so thanks for the mention.

@lilyoyo1 I have certainly complained in the past, so guilty as charged on that count. But by starting this thread, I'm trying to do something constructive about my complaint. I'm probably not going to start a kickstarter campaign. But I'm willing to help a bit if I can, in whatever reasonable ways I can .That might mean a little money, it might mean testing things, it might mean helping with a requirements document. Darned if I know, at this point, but that will probably unfold, for me and others, if this starts moving. No one is saying UDI must do anything right now. No one is saying you need to do anything. It's OK to ignore me, as far as I'm concerned. 

[HABit]

A little update on this project investigation: I'm looking into platforms to use for development since it must be cross-platform and meet my technical requirements to be able to make a set of UI objects, reasonably easy to use to configure a presentation window/form for an end-user. .Net/Xamarin licensing seems like it would allow an open source development, or a for cost app for small development groups. So that allows flexibility of app distribution in any eventuality. I just don't know about Xamarin yet, so have obtained the IDE and libs along with .Net. I'm considering two other platforms as well.

I'd like the resultant objects/code/api to be useable with python as a goal.

I'm going to try to put together some sort of early test app model to see what kinds of things I don't know and what problems I think the project will face. I need to be able to consolidate my thinking on (for lack of a better term) ISYObjects. If I get anywhere, I'll see what kind of portability the app has among platforms.