ecobee is at it again

[Mustang65]

Last week, I picked up my iPhone to adjust the thermostat. To lazy to get up and walk 15 feet (4.5 m). I click on the drab bee-less box and I get a screen that pops up and says that ecobee wants to update my thermostat with new energy savings software for my thermostat. Of the three screens, not once did it mention what the software was going to do. The interesting part of it was that it would not let me back out, the only option was "ACCEPT". No choice but to accept if you want to use the app. I still have no clue as to what it is now doing differently. So, this morning I picked up the iPhone to see what the freezer temp was and a big white pop-up appears asking if I wanted to purchase ecobee furnace filters.

What next?

Pissed as usual

[larryllix]

Unfortunately the world seems to be going to "You don't own anything you paid for. You only rent space on our advertising medium"

I have deleted more apps on my cell phone due to attempted "taking overs". Some are built-in and cannot be removed, but I have learned how to "disable" most of those ones.
When running an app on a modern high speed cell phone takes only a second or two, why would I want apps to live permanently in my RAM memory, and reduce the size of my screen realestate for other things?

BTW: I still occasionally use MS Office 1997, bought and paid for. MS has attempted to cripple it many times bu I think legal action may have prevented that. It processes words and docs. What new feature would I want to rent a new version for?

How do we fight back against these technology dictatorships?

[Teken]

52 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Last week, I picked up my iPhone to adjust the thermostat. To lazy to get up and walk 15 feet (4.5 m). I click on the drab bee-less box and I get a screen that pops up and says that ecobee wants to update my thermostat with new energy savings software for my thermostat. Of the three screens, not once did it mention what the software was going to do. The interesting part of it was that it would not let me back out, the only option was "ACCEPT". No choice but to accept if you want to use the app. I still have no clue as to what it is now doing differently. So, this morning I picked up the iPhone to see what the freezer temp was and a big white pop-up appears asking if I wanted to purchase ecobee furnace filters.

What next?

Pissed as usual

As of this writing the only recourse for the general public is to speak with their wallet and use social media for public shaming announcement. This sort of switch and bait mentality has been ever present for decades. Company *A* wants adoption, sales, market share, so they offer the so called FREE smart application and cloud hosted services. As their market share and presence grow one of many so called Leaders flips the switch and tells the minions below to get their product ready for a paid service.

Back in the day *Local First vs Cloud First* was a given as the Internet along with high speed connectivity was not present.

Now, in 2020 the average person is hard pressed to find a new product that isn't Cloud First or have some kind of critical link or dependency with having to be connected to the Internet to *Call Home*. One only needs to look at Microsoft and their shitty Windows 10 operating system which is 100% reliant on being tethered and connected to the Internet.

It was only due to massive public shaming and out cry that the company offered *Some* business / Government sectors a way to allow the computer to remain off line so deprecating core features would not cripple the entire computer system.

You have to be completely retarded to accept something in your home which you bought and let others tell you how and when to use it . . .

In my home more than 98% of all of the electronics are Local First and the last 2% are either some form Cloud First or have a dependency where a intermittent connection to *Call Home* is required to operate correctly. It's safe to say those 2% of hardware devices play no critical role in my infrastructure and if the Internet or so called Cloud Power exploded today - so what / no harm.

Sadly, as stated above in the not too distant future some super awesome hardware will come out which I see value in. And that super duper hardware will rely 100% on the cloud and require Internet connection in some form. For now, there isn't anything on the market that pushes me to cede my position in adopting Cloud First and have actually gone the polar opposite of Old School.

 

   

[Michel Kohanim]

Hi @Teken,

I agree with you with one exception: people are free to choose. And, to be honest - and after 13 years of doing what we do - cloud is just easier, more extensible, and less headaches (obsolete parts, driver issues, wrong libraries, outdated certificates, ...). This said, we have no plans of doing cloud first.

With kind regards,
Michel

[Teken]

10 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Hi @Teken,

I agree with you with one exception: people are free to choose. And, to be honest - and after 13 years of doing what we do - cloud is just easier, more extensible, and less headaches (obsolete parts, driver issues, wrong libraries, outdated certificates, ...). This said, we have no plans of doing cloud first.

With kind regards,
Michel

@Michel Kohanim

There is a place for Cloud Power and those who offer a balance approach such as yourselves at UDI. The company is truly a shining example of understanding a middle ground can be found and implemented. The PGC Service is the perfect example of offering connectivity to other so called Cloud First portal services such as IFTTT.

While expanding on the 994 Series Controllers capabilities via the Network Module.

It's true, people are free to purchase what ever they feel has value to them. But, given the current market trend of Cloud First vs Local First choosing should not be mistaken as a first choice. Then again I find this era of people just lazy and in turn the lack of care of how things work vs it just does - is  fine with them! This really comes down to awareness and education for the masses and every time there is some kind of massive Internet outage it makes me smile and laugh.

Unfortunately people have short memory and easily dismiss these sort of incidents as one off's.

One day the *Great Hack* will happen and take down the entire Internet and you will surely see people lose their minds - I can't wait!  Regardless, I thank you along with the thousands of others who appreciate UDI's balanced approach in Cloud Power! 

[asbril]

1 hour ago, larryllix said:

I still occasionally use MS Office 1997

https://www.libreoffice.org/

When Microsoft refused to let me install my,  paid for,  MS Office 2010 on a new computer, I switched to the free libreoffice. It is 100 % compatible with Word and Excell !!!!

[larryllix]

5 minutes ago, asbril said:

https://www.libreoffice.org/

When Microsoft refused to let me install my,  paid for,  MS Office 2010 on a new computer, I switched to the free libreoffice. It is 100 % compatible with Word and Excell !!!!

I was running that on a RPi and was very impressed. Like it better than MS.

Does it run on a PC with Win 10?

[Mustang65]

5 minutes ago, asbril said:

https://www.libreoffice.org/

When Microsoft refused to let me install my paid for MS Office 2010 on a new computer, I switched to the free libreoffice. It is 100 % compatible with Word and Excell !!!!

About 5 years ago I did some contract work for a company and they gave me a HUP (home use) version of Microsoft office as part of my contract. To this day it is still up and running on my laptop and I still have the needed access codes which I had to use once since then to get it reinstalled. January of this year Microsoft announced that they have discontinued issuing new HUP licenses.

I have OpenOffice running on my office computer, works fine, but my spreadsheets with a ton of macros for investing doesn't run on it. Not sure as to what I will do without MS Outlook.

[Teken]

About 5 years ago I did some contract work for a company and they gave me a HUP (home use) version of Microsoft office as part of my contract. To this day it is still up and running on my laptop and I still have the needed access codes which I had to use once since then to get it reinstalled. January of this year Microsoft announced that they have discontinued issuing new HUP licenses.

I have OpenOffice running on my office computer, works fine, but my spreadsheets with a ton of macros for investing doesn't run on it. Not sure as to what I will do without MS Outlook.

You can always login in with Outlook (OWA) cloud account . . .

 

[asbril]

2 hours ago, larryllix said:

Does it run on a PC with Win 10?

Yes, Windows 10 as well as Mac

[asbril]

2 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

About 5 years ago I did some contract work for a company and they gave me a HUP (home use) version of Microsoft office as part of my contract. To this day it is still up and running on my laptop and I still have the needed access codes which I had to use once since then to get it reinstalled. January of this year Microsoft announced that they have discontinued issuing new HUP licenses.

I have OpenOffice running on my office computer, works fine, but my spreadsheets with a ton of macros for investing doesn't run on it. Not sure as to what I will do without MS Outlook.

Libreoffice is the next generation of OpenOffice. You can set the option that files are saved in MS Office (current or previous) format. You can also set Libreoffice as your default App (at least in W10) so that LibreOffice opens automatically when you want to open a Word, Excell or Powerpoint file.

[asbril]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

You can always login in with Outlook (OWA) cloud account . . .

LOL.... did someone not recently say that he prefers local over cloud ?  But yes cloud MS Office works, I believe, but I have not used it.

[Teken]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

LOL.... did someone not recently say that he prefers local over cloud ?  But yes cloud MS Office works, I believe, but I have not used it.

That was a suggestion for the OP in terms of a work around - not for me!  The only problem with the OWA is the view and tools are extremely basic vs the full suite. OWA is intended for most Enterprise companies as a fail over service for send / receive mail. Anytime there's a (DRP) Disaster Recovery Process underway all of the iSheep go running to this secondary interface.

Assuming they even remember it exists . . . 

[lilyoyo1]

10 hours ago, Teken said:

As of this writing the only recourse for the general public is to speak with their wallet and use social media for public shaming announcement. This sort of switch and bait mentality has been ever present for decades. Company *A* wants adoption, sales, market share, so they offer the so called FREE smart application and cloud hosted services. As their market share and presence grow one of many so called Leaders flips the switch and tells the minions below to get their product ready for a paid service.

Back in the day *Local First vs Cloud First* was a given as the Internet along with high speed connectivity was not present.

Now, in 2020 the average person is hard pressed to find a new product that isn't Cloud First or have some kind of critical link or dependency with having to be connected to the Internet to *Call Home*. One only needs to look at Microsoft and their shitty Windows 10 operating system which is 100% reliant on being tethered and connected to the Internet.

It was only due to massive public shaming and out cry that the company offered *Some* business / Government sectors a way to allow the computer to remain off line so deprecating core features would not cripple the entire computer system.

You have to be completely retarded to accept something in your home which you bought and let others tell you how and when to use it . . .

In my home more than 98% of all of the electronics are Local First and the last 2% are either some form Cloud First or have a dependency where a intermittent connection to *Call Home* is required to operate correctly. It's safe to say those 2% of hardware devices play no critical role in my infrastructure and if the Internet or so called Cloud Power exploded today - so what / no harm.

Sadly, as stated above in the not too distant future some super awesome hardware will come out which I see value in. And that super duper hardware will rely 100% on the cloud and require Internet connection in some form. For now, there isn't anything on the market that pushes me to cede my position in adopting Cloud First and have actually gone the polar opposite of Old School.

 

   

We both agree on the local vs cloud approach...however, there is 2 sides to every story.

We have to keep in mind that the avg person lacks the time, energy and desire to do what we do (especially at our level). Even the newest/least knowledgeable person that uses the isy (or similar system) is probably more technically inclined than most people. Are there pitfalls....of course. But when you look at the time it takes to research, buy, setup and program an ISY; cloud based systems looks much much better. 

Take the hub for example and compare it to the isy ( imagine both setups work perfectly). With the hub, you'll download an app, scan a barcode, create email/password and add device. Go to alexa, connect to hub and now you have app and voice control. With the Isy, it's download java, get AC, login, add device. Then buy portal, buy mobilinc, add, device, add spoken, go to portal> you get where I'm going..... We know the isy is worth the work. But most people don't. They just want simplicity. Reality is, local is hard work and time consuming. Cloud is easy

[MrBill]

11 hours ago, lilyoyo1 said:

We both agree on the local vs cloud approach...however, there is 2 sides to every story.

We have to keep in mind that the avg person lacks the time, energy and desire to do what we do (especially at our level). Even the newest/least knowledgeable person that uses the isy (or similar system) is probably more technically inclined than most people. Are there pitfalls....of course. But when you look at the time it takes to research, buy, setup and program an ISY; cloud based systems looks much much better. 

Take the hub for example and compare it to the isy ( imagine both setups work perfectly). With the hub, you'll download an app, scan a barcode, create email/password and add device. Go to alexa, connect to hub and now you have app and voice control. With the Isy, it's download java, get AC, login, add device. Then buy portal, buy mobilinc, add, device, add spoken, go to portal> you get where I'm going..... We know the isy is worth the work. But most people don't. They just want simplicity. Reality is, local is hard work and time consuming. Cloud is easy

You just described my mid-30's age son.  He calls Alexa and IFTTT "home automation".  He has Insteon for switching because I bought him his first switches and gave him the Insteon hub that I couldn't stand.  Like most his age he likes drag and drop and apps.  On the other hand I prefer CLI and a laptop.    He also lives in an area with a fiber to the home connection that literally never drops, whereas we live in an area where the only broadband option is literally GiganticCableCompany (made in philadelphia!) that drops out several times a month, for periods of minutes to hours.  He's literally content with telling Alexa what to turn on and off, my wife and I get tired of telling Alexa the same commands over and over.  We hate talking over the movie to say "Alexa, turn on the upstairs fans."

[Michel Kohanim]

Excellent discussions!

As you may already know, we have a pilot with Southern California Edison called Energy Expert. Just to understand what it does, please take a listen to an interaction with a live system here.

Now, using Energy Expert as an example:
1. Calculating the energy usage, per device, for a duration, depending on the price at that time would have been impossible on ISY (resource intensive)
2. To @lilyoyo 's  points, all the following would have been very difficult for the customers:
-- Adjusting comfort vs. savings would have required logging into the dashboard, and navigate through a maze. With the Portal, you just tell Alexa to set it
-- Opting in/out of optimization, per device, would have required Admin console PLUS the Dashboard PLUS an engineering degree. Now, you just say: Alexa, stop optimizing my thermostat or ...
-- Setting up Text notifications would have required logging into the Portal. With the cloud/Alexa, you enable notifications and provide your phone number for text messages through Alexa, it's verified by text, and then enabled if the number is correct
-- Adding safeguards to keep some devices always on (such as the frig) would have required the Admin Console. Now, all of this can be done with one button click in the Portal or you can use Alexa

Above is just a small sample and not a comprehensive list. For Energy Expert - and except for the initial commissioning of devices - the customer does NOT have to use anything but Alexa to communicate with the system. And, if need be, they can login to the ISY Portal and do the same. And, if all fails, they still have the Admin Console/Dashboard to do things.

So, I now have just a little more appreciation for the cloud. Just taking all the above as a template, I think we can definitely create a full fledged energy management/automation solution that follows the same path (Smart Speaker, Portal, Local) from start to finish (including commissioning devices). And, those who want to stay geeky (like me), they can still use AC (or something similar).

With kind regards,
Michel

 

[Mustang65]

2 hours ago, MrBill said:

You just described my mid-30's age son.  He calls Alexa and IFTTT "home automation".  He has Insteon for switching because I bought him his first switches and gave him the Insteon hub that I couldn't stand.  Like most his age he likes drag and drop and apps.  On the other hand I prefer CLI and a laptop.    He also lives in an area with a fiber to the home connection that literally never drops, whereas we live in an area where the only broadband option is literally GiganticCableCompany (made in philadelphia!) that drops out several times a month, for periods of minutes to hours.  He's literally content with telling Alexa what to turn on and off, my wife and I get tired of telling Alexa the same commands over and over.  We hate talking over the movie to say "Alexa, turn on the upstairs fans."

I offered my son a ISY994, but he flat out refused it. "Too much work"! I offered him a BrulTech GEM/DashBox, for Energy Management, no interest at all. I did purchase him an Alexia last year and he uses it mostly for cooking information and background music. He is "TOTALLY"  a point and click or plug and play guy.

My daughter wants NOTHING to do with HA and or EM. She is happy using her light switches and TV/Stereo/Fan and shades remotes. I purchased her an Alexia last year and it is still in the box.

Most of the people I know fall into the above category, and have no interest in changing.

Both have high paying jobs and do not care about Energy Management. As close as both get to EM are their smart thermostats along with their smart phone apps, cloud of course.

My wife, well she hates talking to Alexia but does on occasion, she uses the Insteon remotes for lights, fans, likes the motion sensors when they are working properly, but says if I go first my son will be over to take all this CRAP out. I guess that sums it up.

Me, well I guess I am at or fast approaching the age where all this stuff falls in a category of "Do I really want to do or maintain this stuff?" Maybe it is like a lot of other things in this world, you do a complete 360. Start with no HA&EM and end with no HA&EM....

 

[simplextech]

34 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

My wife, well she hates talking to Alexia but does on occasion, she uses the Insteon remotes for lights, fans, likes the motion sensors when they are working properly, but says if I go first my son will be over to take all this CRAP out. I guess that sums it up.

This sounds very familiar

34 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

Me, well I guess I am at or fast approaching the age where all this stuff falls in a category of "Do I really want to do or maintain this stuff?" Maybe it is like a lot of other things in this world, you do a complete 360. Start with no HA&EM and end with no HA&EM....

Or you install a pro system and let someone else maintain/fix it

 

[MrBill]

15 minutes ago, Mustang65 said:

I offered my son a ISY994, but he flat out refused it. "Too much work"! I offered him a BrulTech GEM/DashBox, for Energy Management, no interest at all. I did purchase him an Alexia last year and he uses it mostly for cooking information and background music. He is "TOTALLY"  a point and click or plug and play guy.

My daughter wants NOTHING to do with HA and or EM. She is happy using her light switches and TV/Stereo/Fan and shades remotes. I purchased her an Alexia last year and it is still in the box.

Most of the people I know fall into the above category, and have no interest in changing.

Both have high paying jobs and do not care about Energy Management. As close as both get to EM are their smart thermostats along with their smart phone apps, cloud of course.

My wife, well she hates talking to Alexia but does on occasion, she uses the Insteon remotes for lights, fans, likes the motion sensors when they are working properly, but says if I go first my son will be over to take all this CRAP out. I guess that sums it up.

Me, well I guess I am at or fast approaching the age where all this stuff falls in a category of "Do I really want to do or maintain this stuff?" Maybe it is like a lot of other things in this world, you do a complete 360. Start with no HA&EM and end with no HA&EM....

 

I once told my son I'd buy them an ISY if he ever wanted to move to the next level, but I also told him in almost the same sentence "You'll love the power and abilities, but YOU will hate the interface, it's not an app and it's not clean and sexy drag and drop."  He's also not a programmer, he understands "IFTTT" but would never be able to grasp some of the ISY concepts.   Him and his wife's idea of Energy Management is telling Alexa to "turn off the house" (an insteon scene with all devices) before they leave.  For temperature management they have a nest "because they never have to touch it".  I looked once, they have no schedules set, mode is set to Heat/Cool with a Heating temp of 68 and a cooling temp of 72.

Our daughter had no interest in home automation at all.  She got an echo dot in the extended family Christmas gift game a few years ago.  When she found out it wasn't a battery powered device that she could put in her purse , carry around, and talk to or have it place music whenever, she wasn't interested anymore--she sold it for $5 in some online non-facebook marketplace.

My wife is extremely non-technical but embraces our automation system.  She loves using it as a user, but has no concept of how it works.  If I go first she'll be able to use it until something breaks, but knowing what to fix or reboot in the case of a problem she wouldn't even know how to begin.  I have some instructions created that include pictures of boxes (she wouldn't know the difference between an ISY and a hue hub... much less how they interact, but then it changes too--I haven't even touched documenting Polisy for example--what it does, what might happen if it didn't work, etc) 

It's hard to balance all the variables.....

[Teken]

1 hour ago, Michel Kohanim said:

Excellent discussions!

As you may already know, we have a pilot with Southern California Edison called Energy Expert. Just to understand what it does, please take a listen to an interaction with a live system here.

Now, using Energy Expert as an example:
1. Calculating the energy usage, per device, for a duration, depending on the price at that time would have been impossible on ISY (resource intensive)
2. To @lilyoyo 's  points, all the following would have been very difficult for the customers:
-- Adjusting comfort vs. savings would have required logging into the dashboard, and navigate through a maze. With the Portal, you just tell Alexa to set it
-- Opting in/out of optimization, per device, would have required Admin console PLUS the Dashboard PLUS an engineering degree. Now, you just say: Alexa, stop optimizing my thermostat or ...
-- Setting up Text notifications would have required logging into the Portal. With the cloud/Alexa, you enable notifications and provide your phone number for text messages through Alexa, it's verified by text, and then enabled if the number is correct
-- Adding safeguards to keep some devices always on (such as the frig) would have required the Admin Console. Now, all of this can be done with one button click in the Portal or you can use Alexa

Above is just a small sample and not a comprehensive list. For Energy Expert - and except for the initial commissioning of devices - the customer does NOT have to use anything but Alexa to communicate with the system. And, if need be, they can login to the ISY Portal and do the same. And, if all fails, they still have the Admin Console/Dashboard to do things.

So, I now have just a little more appreciation for the cloud. Just taking all the above as a template, I think we can definitely create a full fledged energy management/automation solution that follows the same path (Smart Speaker, Portal, Local) from start to finish (including commissioning devices). And, those who want to stay geeky (like me), they can still use AC (or something similar).

With kind regards,
Michel

 

Hi Michel,

Just saw your reply to my query in another thread asking how to integrate with the Brultech GEM /Dash Box. How does one begin the process of sending energy data to ISY Portal? This is another turning point in making energy monitoring & energy management sexy to the masses!

[Mustang65]

17 minutes ago, Teken said:

Hi Michel,

Just saw your reply to my query in another thread asking how to integrate with the Brultech GEM /Dash Box. How does one begin the process of sending energy data to ISY Portal? This is another turning point in making energy monitoring & energy management sexy to the masses!

I would venture to say that the masses do care about energy monitoring & energy management but do not care enough to take the steps to get involved on the home front. A lot of talk and no action on their part.

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Mustang65 said:

I would venture to say that the masses do care about energy monitoring & energy management but do not care enough to take the steps to get involved on the home front. A lot of talk and no action on their part.

I think it depends on where one lives. In a high rate state like California yes. In a low rate place such as in the south not as much. I've had more people talk about energy savings in California in a month than in Charlotte in a year. 

 

[lilyoyo1]

2 hours ago, Teken said:

Hi Michel,

Just saw your reply to my query in another thread asking how to integrate with the Brultech GEM /Dash Box. How does one begin the process of sending energy data to ISY Portal? This is another turning point in making energy monitoring & energy management sexy to the masses!

Masses= Teken. ???

[Teken]

Masses= Teken.

I’m not the centre of the multiverse?!?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mustang65]

2 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I think it depends on where one lives. In a high rate state like California yes. In a low rate place such as in the south not as much. I've had more people talk about energy savings in California in a month than in Charlotte in a year. 

 

What would be really interesting is to see (not being political here as both sides of the fence are GUILTY) how many of the "Green New Deal" backers are actively practicing energy management. Calif example = private jets back and forth to Washington, commercial airlines for the others, how many own electric cars that are only SOLAR charged, ride on only electric public transportation, where available, turn down or off the AC when they leave the mansions (some have 2 or 3 mansions)....?

I believe I already can guess the answer.