New house and starting fresh, which to use, Z-wave or Insteon or ??

[DAlter01]

My existing house has about 90 insteon devices and several z-wave mostly for Schlage door locks and one fan controller and an ISY.  BUT, I'm selling it and planning for installing HA at the new house.  Being 7 years after I did the mostly Insteon install, I'd like to get some input on the direction to go.

Basics:

This will be mostly lighting control, door locks, ceiling fans, and a couple of occupancy sensors.  It will be a +/- 100 device install controlled by an ISY.  Likely not included will be the HVAC control which will likley be through Honeywell's proprietary system and their thermostats, which are excellent.  The security alarm will be intergrated into the HA system if that is possible or it will be a standalone application.  Currently it is standalone and I haven't looked to see if it can be integrated.  The video cameras will likely be Blue Iris and I don't want to integrate any home theater or distributed audio into the HA system.  

Issues with current system:

The Insteon system is 98-99% reliable.  Occasionally a light doesn't respond to a command.  This typically occurs when the command is an ISY triggered command.  However, sometimes a button controlled command will have a device not respond if there are a large number of responders to the button.  I've installed noise filters everywhere.  I use a handheld radio set to the Insteon frequency to track down noisy electronics that cause interference and I can't seem to get the system to 100% reliability.  Maybe that is an unreachable goal considering the many hundreds of responses that occur daily.  

The Z-wave system seems to be reliable but is only the Schlage locks and one fan controller so it is a very small sample size with limited equipment.  And, it seems the Z-wave locks and fan are very slow to respond to commands.  It is several seconds.

Questions:

Is Z-wave viable for lighting control?  Does it respond more reliably than Insteon if all other conditions are the same (robust mesh, similar distances and devices)?  Does it respond fast enough to be comparable to Insteon or is there a noticeable lag that would make its use unacceptable for lighting for someone accustomed to the speed of Insteon?

If you were doing a new full install today for mostly lighting, fan control and door locks, what would you install if money was secondary to reliability (assuming I don't want to turn over all of the programming and set up a Crestron/Control 4 integrator). 

Is there another system that should be considered?  I've never contemplated a Zigbee install.  Is it viable for my contemplated uses?  Will Lutron's Caseta system solve the reliability issue?  I understand Caseta is fast like Insteon but I'd have to figure out how to control it which seems to be a propriety Lutron controller which requires obtaining a license, etc. to install a large system.

There is a lot of HA brain power out there.  I'm open to ideas.  Thanks!

[simplextech]

16 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Is Z-wave viable for lighting control?  Does it respond more reliably than Insteon if all other conditions are the same (robust mesh, similar distances and devices)?  Does it respond fast enough to be comparable to Insteon or is there a noticeable lag that would make its use unacceptable for lighting for someone accustomed to the speed of Insteon?

My opinion.  No Z-Wave is not viable for a lighting system.  The serial nature creates a "popcorn" effect when you are trying to have scenes or groups of multiple lights.  For most other things Z-Wave is fine when response time is not measured in milliseconds and synchronized.

18 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

If you were doing a new full install today for mostly lighting, fan control and door locks, what would you install if money was secondary to reliability (assuming I don't want to turn over all of the programming and set up a Crestron/Control 4 integrator). 

You didn't mention RTI I'll take your money!

19 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Is there another system that should be considered?  I've never contemplated a Zigbee install.  Is it viable for my contemplated uses?  Will Lutron's Caseta system solve the reliability issue?  I understand Caseta is fast like Insteon but I'd have to figure out how to control it which seems to be a propriety Lutron controller which requires obtaining a license, etc. to install a large system.

Depending on how many lights, plugins, etc Caseta Pro may work for you however it has a 75 device limit and limit to aux repeaters for expanding the system.  A step up would be the RA2 Select system which handles more devices and repeaters.  Both of these systems have occupancy sensors (now) but they do not report through the Lutron Integration Protocol so you can't integrate the occupancy sensors into any system.  Both of these systems are configured through a mobile app and are designed for consumer friendliness. 

The next step up in features and cost is the RadioRA 2 system.  You get the full gamut of devices and capabilities with this system.  This is the Pro installed system but many do purchase it through dealers and install it themselves (yes I'm a dealer).  There is a short half-day class that is FREE from Lutron that you can take to get access to the programming software to program the lighting system.

In development are NodeServers for Polisy to integrate the Lutron lighting systems.  I won't give a timeline for release but RadioRA 2 will be released first and and following it will be RA2 Select and then Caseta Pro.

Make NOTE... There are 2 versions of the Caseta bridge.  The Caseta Pro is fully capable of integration using the Lutron Integration Protocol.  The "standard" or "consumer" bridge that you can buy at Home Depot, Lowe's, BestBuy etc etc (amazon) is not integration friendly and does not support LIP.  There is a way to integrate it with some hoops through retrieving security keys but I won't support it.

If you have any other Lutron questions ask.

As for going with Zigbee for lighting.  It's feasible but there's no integration with ISY currently and the consumer line of Zigbee lighting controls is very lacking.  Control4 has great Zigbee lighting controls but you have to have Control4.

If budget is not a concern go for a full Lutron RadioRA 2 system and call it a day.  Otherwise Insteon is still very good for lighting control.  There's a big cost difference between going Lutron vs Insteon.

[lilyoyo1]

What @simplextechsaid. If Lutron isn't the route to go for you, then I would suggest a combination of insteon and zwave. Insteon is much better for lighting than zwave. Zwave is better IMO on the sensor front. 

Personally I prefer C4 over lutron (devices look better) but I wouldn't need to pay for programming so I understand why it's a non starter for you. 

With all things being equal, I think reliability is about the same for insteon and zwave. However, since zwave is tied to the controller in order to operate, you have more things that can go wrong. That's also a built in speed bump that you don't necessarily have with insteon. 

[simplextech]

6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Zwave is better IMO on the sensor front. 

I agree with that.  I swapped out the Insteon sensors with Z-Wave for contact and use Lutron Occupancy sensors.

6 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Personally I prefer C4 over lutron (devices look better)

Oh here we go... But yeah the C4 switches do look nice.  The Lutron Maestro are pretty "normal" looking with the exception of them being "buttons" and not "rockers" like traditional decora switches.  The Caseta switches have their own look that's the same as the Pico remotes.  Some like the style/look some don't.

I love Pico remotes though... they're like candy just can't have enough because they are cheap and totally versatile for controlling things.

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, simplextech said:

I agree with that.  I swapped out the Insteon sensors with Z-Wave for contact and use Lutron Occupancy sensors.

Oh here we go... But yeah the C4 switches do look nice.  The Lutron Maestro are pretty "normal" looking with the exception of them being "buttons" and not "rockers" like traditional decora switches.  The Caseta switches have their own look that's the same as the Pico remotes.  Some like the style/look some don't.

I love Pico remotes though... they're like candy just can't have enough because they are cheap and totally versatile for controlling things.

Nice try...but we know you can't argue about the looks. Lol.  It's not that lutron looks bad. Just very plain for what they cost. Lutron is solid though. You can never go wrong with using it.

[DAlter01]

Simplextech,

Thank you for the detailed and helpful answers. 

Budget is secondary to reliability but is still a major consideration.  Does the RadioRA 2 offer better communications reliability than Insteon likely solving my 1-2% non-responsive issue or do you occasionally still see that with Lutron's system?   The 75 device limit of Ceseta Pro is a deal killer as every decision to add devices then has to be weighed against that cap.  It becomes a future proofing issue.   Funny how Lutron likely signficantly cuts their sales by excluding someone like me who will buy 100 devices.  It drives people to Insteon and Z-wave.  But.....maybe it helps integrators like yourself?

When you say a big cost difference between Lutron and Insteon, is that 30%, 100%, 250%?  If 30%-50%, not an issue.  More than that..... and the decision gets harder.  On the programming, after the half day class am I able to purchase and program the RadioRA 2 equipment?  Or, is the RadioRA2 equipment and programming confined to just "real" integrators? 

Does Lutron integrate with door locks or would I need to control that via a separate Z-wave network?

If Lutron doesn't integrate with motions sensors, is there a workaround equipment and logic for turning on a house's lighting and operations only when someone is around?  A door sensor doesn't seem appropriate but I'm sure you have thought about this limitation before.

Thanks

 

   

 

[DAlter01]

lilyoyo1,

So, if I stay with Insteon/Z-wave, rather than the sensor being linked to a responder (insteon method), I would use the ISY as the translator to recognize a Z-wave event and then trigger an Insteon responder?  If going that route, is the Z-wave sensor running through the ISY fast enough to use that motion sensor to turn on lights in one part of a house without there being a signficant lag?  

[simplextech]

3 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Does the RadioRA 2 offer better communications reliability than Insteon likely solving my 1-2% non-responsive issue or do you occasionally still see that with Lutron's system? 

Personally I have 100% reliability with Lutron as do clients.  You can search around and when properly installed the system is rock solid.  The only way to really screw it up is in bad placement of the main repeater and not having any aux repeaters when necessary.  There's a conservative limit of 30 feet from device to repeater and 60 feet from aux repeater to main repeater.  When installed correctly it just works.

5 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

Funny how Lutron likely signficantly cuts their sales by excluding someone like me who will buy 100 devices.  It drives people to Insteon and Z-wave.  But.....maybe it helps integrators like yourself?

It's a marketing thing.  The Caseta and RA2 Select lines are meant to be consumer installed and used and as such they have device caps that are arbitrary.  The Caseta device limit was just increased in the last year to be 75 devices as it was 50 prior to that.

7 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

When you say a big cost difference between Lutron and Insteon, is that 30%, 100%, 250%?  If 30%-50%, not an issue.  More than that..... and the decision gets harder. 

This is a variable you would have to discuss with a dealer and get a quote.  You can find pricing on the internet for pieces of things and you can find some ideas of pricing.

8 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

On the programming, after the half day class am I able to purchase and program the RadioRA 2 equipment?  Or, is the RadioRA2 equipment and programming confined to just "real" integrators?

With RadioRA 2 there's 2 levels of training and programming.  Level I training is free and it's an online class.  After the class you'll have a myLutron login and you can download the programming software and do whatever you want with your equipment.  The Level II class is a paid class and opens the system to more advanced functionality and allow you to program the more advanced devices as well as expand the system to 2 main repeaters which doubles the number of devices you can have in a RadioRA 2 system.  This opens up 200 devices total in RadioRA 2.  Which is a lot of lights

As for purchasing equipment.  There are places you can purchase from as an individual but the RadioRA 2 and higher end systems are meant to be dealer installed and provide an income to poor slobs like me.  You can find pieces on Amazon and on Ebay (be careful with ebay).  The easiest is to contact a dealer and tell them you're looking to do a self-install DIY and just looking to purchase equipment.  Or you can contact some lighting supply shops or distributors and get an account setup to purchase direct.  ADI, Capital Sales, Wave Electronics, SnapAV, etc, etc. 

12 minutes ago, dalter2 said:

If Lutron doesn't integrate with motions sensors, is there a workaround equipment and logic for turning on a house's lighting and operations only when someone is around?  A door sensor doesn't seem appropriate but I'm sure you have thought about this limitation before.

Lutron has their own Occupancy/Vacancy sensors which integrate great with the lighting system.  I use them for all of my "motion sensing".  The Caseta and RA2 Select systems have occupancy sensors but they do not report to integrated platforms.  So you can't integrate those directly into something like the ISY.  RadioRA 2 has the same sensors BUT you can integrate them with external control systems like ISY.

For standard contact sensors like Door/Window I currently use Z-Wave (Ecolink Z-Wave Plus) sensors in my own home.  I have thought and still am about replacing this with a ELK security panel and using ELK door/window sensors but I have not done this yet.  Still thinking about it.  I like ELK because it's open and integrates well with other platforms, like the ISY.

[lilyoyo1]

In addition to what was already said, you should expect to pay around 3-4x (minimum) as much for a Lutron radioRa2 switch as you would a single insteon dimmer switch (when purchased from a reputable source). Keypads even more. 

You are getting an extremely reliable system....just comes with a cost. There's a reason why insteon and zwave devices are so cheap (relatively speaking)..... You get what you pay for.

Yes, by making RadioRa2 installer based, they are losing customers. At the same time, most people don't know what they are doing so they end up with issues. This shows with insteon and zwave. While they aren't perfect by any stretch, most issues (outside devices not working) are due to user error. 

 They are willing to lose sales to regular consumers (even if you're buying 100 devices to ensure (or at least increase the chances of) things are done right. They are more worried about their reputation than a sale. A bad install means an unhappy customer. An unhappy customer complains all over the internet giving them a bad name. This is greatly amplified the pricier something is. 

Don't equate taking the training with any discounted pricing. It just unlocks the software for you. You'll still need to purchase from somewhere else such as another dealer, Volutone, or SnapAV. Those companies offer dealer discounts if you qualify but generally you need to be part of the industry for that. 

In regards to zwave sensors to insteon switches, there will be a delay since there are no direct device links. However, I've found the delay to be 1 second or less. On some occasions, I've waited 2 seconds. Could it be faster...yes, but overall, I'm satisfied and I haven't heard any complaints from anyone

 

 

[DAlter01]

Lilyoyo1 and Simplextech, that all makes sense.

So if I were to actually go with an integrator and have them install a Radio RA2 or Control4 system to get that 100% reliablity I'd like to have (and possibly better programming than I can provide), is there a significant disadvantage or advantage of one over the other?  I'm not talking about Ford vs Chevy differences but some signficant difference?  Are those the two best options for a rock solid system?

I probably wouldn't mind having someone else build the major programming systems.  It would save me from a lot of mistakes.  But, I don't really want to hire a programmer to do everything and have to marry a specific integrator that owns the coding of my house and I can never get away from if/when the service quality drops or triples in price.  I enjoy tinkering with the system to a degree. 

Is there a measurable price difference between the two or is that just contractor specific on how they view/bid the project?

 

[DAlter01]

It would be a radio system, not wired.  It's an existing house that I don't want to tear open.

 

[larryllix]

If you enjoy tinkering, you need to program the system yourself. It's fun and rewarding. Every time you think of something new, and you will forever..., you will have to call this guy, or somebody else, that will tell you it wasn't done right in the first place, and pay bucks out, or just not have your idea realised.

When somebody else sets up your system, you will not get the basic techniques down and have a hard time progressing with your abilities. We have seen many newbies here that didn't know their ankle from a hole in the ground.

There is lots of help here and people are glad to help with hunts or write complete programs for you at times.

Don't make me come over there!

Edited October 27, 2020 by larryllix

[DAlter01]

Thanks Larryllix.  That is my concern about the programming turning into a monster with an "if you want to do that, we have to start from scratch...."  Or the olddie but goodie "the guy that wrote that code is no longer with the company and we had to spend 8 hours (on your time) figuring out how to accomplish the little change you want to make..."

 

[DAlter01]

I programmed my existing house myself 90+ devices, dozens of scenes and except for one minor issue that I didn't devote enough brain power towards, the programming is pretty good.  But, it isn't 100% reliable on responding all the time (the landscape lights will stay on, a light doesn't go out when the "sleep" scene is triggered) etc.  It doesn't happen often, maybe a couple times a week I need to push a button twice.  On the programming, for the big programmed scenes with 50+ devices, I have the ISY do the scene redundantly a couple seconds apart and and that mostly solves the problem.  I think its the proliferation of LED lights causing too much noise.  

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, dalter2 said:

So if I were to actually go with an integrator and have them install a Radio RA2 or Control4 system to get that 100% reliablity I'd like to have

You don't "have" to pay someone else to install a RadioRa 2 system.  You can do it yourself and many, many do.  Control4 is it's own thing where you would have to have someone install the full system.  Depending on how you work the contract with the installer you can get some degree of access to a Control4 system to tinker but you'll never have 100% as you can't get most drivers without being a dealer.

I'm biased and I admit it but I prefer Lutron over other lighting because it's lighting not everything else AND EVERY OTHER system out there....Every single one of them RTI, Control4, Crestron, Savant, Vivint, HomeSeer, Hubitat, Vera, Fibaro, etc etc all support Lutron... so the lighting will never be a loss if you someday choose a different control platform.

 

[DAlter01]

Ah, I didn't realize everything else can control Lutron.  So, it sounds like I can control RadioRA 2 hardware with an ISY to get the higher communications reliability of the Lutron hardware on a programming platform I can understand?  Alternatively, if I go the route of the Caseta Pro, is it's LIP similar to the ISY for programming difficulty?  Also, is the LIP programming unlocked so that I can bring programmers in and out of the process if I need assistance on that aspect without them "owning" the coding? 

[lilyoyo1]

A system is only as strong (minus hardware issues) as the programmer. Lutron and C4 are rock solid but in the wrong hands can be terrible. If all you are looking for is lighting, Lutron is the way to go. If you want to integrate, the C4 would be better suited. With that said, C4 would definitely be outside of your willing price range (according to what you said earlier).

I'm not a huge fan of mixing systems (which is why I prefer C4). I try to do things within 1 ecosystem. Lessens the chance of something going wrong and minimizes troubleshooting. Minor stuff is 1 thing such as sonos but primary no. For example, with Lutron, you would have Lutron, then the nodeserver, Polisy, and finally the isy (until integrated with Polisy). If your lights don't turn on, you have to look at multiple things.  

[simplextech]

1 hour ago, dalter2 said:

Also, is the LIP programming unlocked so that I can bring programmers in and out of the process if I need assistance on that aspect without them "owning" the coding? 

LIP -> Lutron Integration Protocol is ascii.  It's literally a socket connection to the ascii interface and you can access and read/send commands with any telnet client.   So yeah it's unlocked Some out there will throw stones because it's "unsecure".... well it's ascii numerical data and it's just lights

Sample output from a running nodeserver in development: 

Output a main repeater:  ~OUTPUT,40,29,11  You tell me what that is

1 hour ago, dalter2 said:

Alternatively, if I go the route of the Caseta Pro, is it's LIP similar to the ISY for programming difficulty?

Caseta Pro, RA2 Select are both "programmed" from a mobile app.  There isn't any programming.  You can create scenes/groups of lights and some basic actions.  You will have to use a control system to do anything really fancy with them.  There are no keypads for Caseta or RA2 select either.  They are "entry-level".  The upside to RA2 Select are the dimmers/switches are compatible with RadioRA 2 so all you have to replace is the Main Repeater.  With Caseta the only thing compatible between the bigger brothers are the Pico remotes.

7 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

Lutron and C4 are rock solid but in the wrong hands can be terrible. If all you are looking for is lighting, Lutron is the way to go. If you want to integrate, the C4 would be better suited. With that said, C4 would definitely be outside of your willing price range (according to what you said earlier).

I'm bringing @lilyoyo1comments in because they are also important.  If you want a fully/tightly integrated system with rock solid reliability then go with a C4 or Crestron as they each have their OWN lighting controls and most other components as well.  Tightly integrated single vendor solution.  You won't get to tinker as much but it is rock solid if you get a good programmer to setup everything.

9 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

For example, with Lutron, you would have Lutron, then the nodeserver, Polisy, and finally the isy (until integrated with Polisy). If your lights don't turn on, you have to look at multiple things.  

This is also a valid point to consider.  When working with multiple systems and integrating them there's higher probability of problems.  As it stands currently the RadioRA 2 nodeserver is still in development and not released as of yet.  I expect as is normal that there will be some issues that come up which aren't caught in the testing.  They'll get fixed quickly but nothing is ever 100% reliable 100% of the time when humans are involved somewhere in the mix.

[DAlter01]

Thank you both.  I've got some thinking to do....