LED Bulbs Flicker on traffic

[maxnorth]

I'm surprised that there aren't many postings here on the problem of LED bulbs flickering when Insteon events are transmitted over the power line network.  This is a huge problem for me (maybe it's only me?).  I'm increasingly worried about this as incandescents go away.  

My environment is ISY994 using only three-wire toggle switches and KPLs -- no two wire. I have the flicker problem both with A19 style LED replacements and with a couple of native LED fixtures I've bought (no bulbs).  When there is traffic -- an Elk sensor triggers, for example -- the bulb flickers.  It seem to flicker also where a program executes, at least where that program includes that fixture. True with toggle switches and KPLs. Nothing unusual about my wiring setup, as far as I know. I have not determined whether this only happens where scenes are involved or not, but it is possible.

I don't seem to have the problem at all with R30 style LED bulbs.

I have not tried the Phillips Warm Glow.  Is this just a problem with using cheap bulbs, or is there some line filter I can use to eliminate the problem.  

It's really not acceptable in the current state.

[Brian H]

Are the Insteon modules On-Off relay or Insteon Dimmer modules.

Are the LED bulbs dimmable if you are using Insteon Dimmer modules?

I have seen posts in the Smarthome and Insteon.com Forums on LED bulbs flickering on power line traffic. One person found using a 2477D dimmer switch on the LED bulb worked better than a dimmer type KPL. Some say different brands of LED bulbs work better than others.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Brian H

[fahrer16]

I've seen this quite a bit on my setup.  I'm using a mix of 2477D dimmer switches and 2334 Dimmer KPL's with some pretty cheap (almost free) bulbs that I picked up from the local electric company.  I've been working under the assumption that the cheap bulbs are the likely cause.  It's very noticeable and reproduceable when adding a new insteon device.  Luckily I don't do that too often.  

[blueman2]

If you are seeing flickering in your bulbs, it is due to them being either not dimmable or very cheap.  I had this same experience with super cheap bulbs.  Switched over to better dimmables, and all flickering went away.  

[Bumbershoot]

I’m a big fan of the Philips Warm Glow bulbs. No flickering, they dim nicely and the Mrs. loves the color temperature at low light levels. 

[randysachs]

FWIW I haven't noticed a difference between switch types, but it seems like the more you dim the light the more noticeable the flicker. But maybe I'm imagining it..

[maxnorth]

As the OP, I've got some good news for those interested in this topic.  I have a single chandelier that uses 4 A19 bulbs.  I had severe flicker issues and, to be clear, this was not related to dimming.  The flicker would happen when there was sensor activity or other network traffic.

I was using Feit.  I replaced all the bulbs with Phillips Warm Glow, and the problem is now completely gone.

What is very interesting is that my flicker problems on some other fixtures are now much reduced as well.  

I'm feeling much better about the prospect of replacing all of my incandescents with LEDs now.

[MrBill]

On 11/5/2020 at 11:30 PM, maxnorth said:

I was using Feit.  I replaced all the bulbs with Phillips Warm Glow, and the problem is now completely gone.

I agree.  I've almost ridded myself with Feit, when I started changing to LED circa 2013 that was actually the best choice in terms of price/performance.  Today I only purchase Phillips Warm Glow for white colored light bulbs.  (and a few Phillips Hue where we actually wanted color.)

[Techman]

Some of the earlier generation LED bulbs incorporated a driver circuit which, in some instances,  responded to fluctuations in the line voltage, thus the flicker.

The newer generation led bulbs, especially some of the FEIT bulbs, no longer use driver circuits, just an LED element. Not only do they run cooler but they also weigh less as they don't require a heat sink.

[HABit]

If the LED bulbs are dimmable, they will have a "driver" circuit to convert a dimmer output PWM (e.g. Insteon dimmer switch, etc.), to a proportional voltage and then to the bulb's own PWM. LED's are quantum devices and either emit photons/light, or are off. Pulse Width Modulation has been used since the advent of "dimmable" LED bulbs to trick the eye into thinking that the light emission is dimmer. Since LED's switch On/Off in nanoseconds, when an Insteon Dimmer Switch is busy decoding power line or RF commands, even if the command is not addressed to a particular device, the internal microcomputer chip does not service the PWM function as diligently, and thus you see flicker in concert with power line or RF Insteon commands. 

The Phillips Warm Glow bulbs incorporate an integrator (think capacitor type delay, but digitally implemented), which effectively diminishes LED bulb flickering.

While I have gone out of my way to avoid the $$$ Hue bulbs, Phillips has actually done a great job designing their products.

[Techman]

4 hours ago, HABit said:

If the LED bulbs are dimmable, they will have a "driver" circuit to convert a dimmer output PWM (e.g. Insteon dimmer switch, etc.), to a proportional voltage and then to the bulb's own PWM. LED's are quantum devices and either emit photons/light, or are off. Pulse Width Modulation has been used since the advent of "dimmable" LED bulbs to trick the eye into thinking that the light emission is dimmer. Since LED's switch On/Off in nanoseconds, when an Insteon Dimmer Switch is busy decoding power line or RF commands, even if the command is not addressed to a particular device, the internal microcomputer chip does not service the PWM function as diligently, and thus you see flicker in concert with power line or RF Insteon commands. 

The Phillips Warm Glow bulbs incorporate an integrator (think capacitor type delay, but digitally implemented), which effectively diminishes LED bulb flickering.

While I have gone out of my way to avoid the $$$ Hue bulbs, Phillips has actually done a great job designing their products.

Here's the line of bulbs I was referring to. I believe that the Insteon dimmers use a TRIAC to reduce their output voltage.

https://www.feit.com/product/810-lumen-2700k-dimmable-led/

 

 

[HABit]

All traditional dimmer circuits use a phase triggered TRIAC (or other similar AC switch). In the old rotary dial type dimmers, the dial is a potentiometer that controls the rate of charge in an RC circuit that builds up according to the resistance set by the pot. When the voltage on the trigger of the TRIAC is sufficient it fires and the AC voltage is supplied to the load for the duration of the AC phase. At AC zero-crossing, the TRIAC turns off again, and the process starts over. Even though the AC waveform is sinusoidal, it is still a pulse, albeit with rounded corners. The Insteon uses a tiny micro computer to simulate the RC (integrator) circuit by firing the TRIAC a count of increments (0-255) from the AC zero crossing.

With incandescent bulbs, the mechanism for generating light is thermionic - the filament heats up until the outer valence electrons breach their orbit and voila photons are emitted (let their be light). The great thing about these types of bulbs is that cheap dimmers worked really well due to the time lag to heat or cool the filament (think no flickering if the voltage varies on the line or due to an over-taxed micro, which does not turn on exactly when it should).

LEDs emit light/photons, when the voltage is sufficient to initiate excitation, but unfortunately for dimmers, turn off just as rapidly. To create dimmable LED bulbs, the manufacturers must simulate the resistive load of an incandescent bulb using a resistor and a capacitor. This generates a proportional voltage that is used to drive a voltage controlled oscillator (the thing that makes the PWM). Cost being everything, initial dimmable LED bulbs worked OK for "static" dimmers, but for the Insteon dimmer, subject to doing other things besides turning on the TRIAC at the correct pulse count, you see flickering when, for example, an Insteon command is being received and it tries to decode the address, etc.

I do not use LED bulbs in prominent locations (such as the hanging lights over my Kitchen bar), since the flickering is greatly evident. Other places such as the living room, the flickering is there, but other lights help distract you from sensing this effect, plus could be staring at the TV, etc. With the Phillips Warm Glow, the product engineers actually looked at this problem (no doubt since they are into HA, it is a topic of which they are aware), and have done a great job minimizing it.

We just need to invent slow LEDs to eliminate this problem.  

[Techman]

On 11/9/2020 at 12:34 PM, HABit said:

If the LED bulbs are dimmable, they will have a "driver" circuit to convert a dimmer output PWM (e.g. Insteon dimmer switch, etc.), to a proportional voltage and then to the bulb's own PWM. LED's are quantum devices and either emit photons/light, or are off. Pulse Width Modulation has been used since the advent of "dimmable" LED bulbs to trick the eye into thinking that the light emission is dimmer. Since LED's switch On/Off in nanoseconds, when an Insteon Dimmer Switch is busy decoding power line or RF commands, even if the command is not addressed to a particular device, the internal microcomputer chip does not service the PWM function as diligently, and thus you see flicker in concert with power line or RF Insteon commands. 

The Phillips Warm Glow bulbs incorporate an integrator (think capacitor type delay, but digitally implemented), which effectively diminishes LED bulb flickering.

While I have gone out of my way to avoid the $$$ Hue bulbs, Phillips has actually done a great job designing their products.

I stand corrected, the newer Feit bulbs have concealed a a small driver circuit in the base of the bulb. These bulbs will dim almost all the way down and I have not experienced any flicker even at the lowest dim setting.

[randysachs]

I've been doing a little experimenting and am still confused. I have had exactly the same one piece can replacement downlights in my family room as I had in the kitchen, older generation Commercial Electrics from HD. The family has a 2334-222 KP, the kitchen a 2486. Neither one had any flicker for about 3 years, but the kitchen started to flicker about 6 months ago. So I swapped out the kitchen KP to a 2334-222, and they still flickered. I tried some Feit's from Costco, and they were worse, it was the first time the wife ever noticed it. Sort of cracked me up, she kept looking out the window for the flashing light until I 'splained it.?

So from what I've read here I ordered some Philips ones from Amazon that said they were flicker free. And they are, thank goodness. Dim nicely too. The model is Philips LED 802660.
URL is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08667H59V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But what I don't get is why the kitchen started acting up after all that time, while the family room has nary a problem. ?

[larryllix]

5 hours ago, randysachs said:

I've been doing a little experimenting and am still confused. I have had exactly the same one piece can replacement downlights in my family room as I had in the kitchen, older generation Commercial Electrics from HD. The family has a 2334-222 KP, the kitchen a 2486. Neither one had any flicker for about 3 years, but the kitchen started to flicker about 6 months ago. So I swapped out the kitchen KP to a 2334-222, and they still flickered. I tried some Feit's from Costco, and they were worse, it was the first time the wife ever noticed it. Sort of cracked me up, she kept looking out the window for the flashing light until I 'splained it.?

So from what I've read here I ordered some Philips ones from Amazon that said they were flicker free. And they are, thank goodness. Dim nicely too. The model is Philips LED 802660.
URL is https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08667H59V/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

But what I don't get is why the kitchen started acting up after all that time, while the family room has nary a problem. ?

Factory reset the SwitchLinc and then restore it. Make sure it actually factory resets. They can start flashing the lights with Insteon traffic or just oscillating between the bulbs and the SwitchLinc dimmer circuitry. It is possible the bulbs filter capacitors just wore out. The LEDs inside are not the weakest link of these bulbs.

[maxnorth]

And keep in mind that the flicker can be caused by bulbs in other devices.  That was certainly my situation.  I'm not certain if it's only other devices that share the same KPL or not.

[randysachs]

5 hours ago, larryllix said:

Factory reset the SwitchLinc and then restore it. Make sure it actually factory resets. They can start flashing the lights with Insteon traffic or just oscillating between the bulbs and the SwitchLinc dimmer circuitry. It is possible the bulbs filter capacitors just wore out. The LEDs inside are not the weakest link of these bulbs.

I'm sure it's the traffic, but it's odd that it only started doing it after a long period of time and kept doing it even after everything was replaced. It might have started after I added some motion sensors and upgraded the ISY to 5.0.16C but I'm not sure about the actual timing on that.

[larryllix]

6 hours ago, randysachs said:

I'm sure it's the traffic, but it's odd that it only started doing it after a long period of time and kept doing it even after everything was replaced. It might have started after I added some motion sensors and upgraded the ISY to 5.0.16C but I'm not sure about the actual timing on that.

Mine started after I replaced my PLM. Many devices did not take the update properly and bogged my ISY down, crippling some operations. Years past I have had a few switches start doing that for no known reason and a factory reset mostly cured them. Some were fixed by turning off the LED flash on traffic option. Either way a factory reset should fix any of that. Don't let the air gap switch fall to the On position after pulling it out. The SwitchLincs I have done will not maintain an air gap and need to be quickly switched from out to held in, or the reset fails

Edited November 30, 2020 by larryllix

[Brian H]

I have some of the original revision. 2476S SwitchLinc V2 modules.

No Air Gap switch. Factory reset was a combination of holding the top paddle for ten seconds and release. Tap the set button. Then hold the set button in for ten seconds.

[Banichi]

I just did an install with 4" LED retrofit can trims and the homeowner sourced the trims. He bought Sunco units and the flicker is awful! 

Just to test various other options in this style I put together a little test bench of sorts. Phillips trims seem to perform the best overall on a 2477D. Now of course there is no other insteon traffic to be had in this test but the Suncos were flickering pretty badly just on regular dimming. The Feit units that I got were smooth though cut off around the 10% mark whereas the Phillips had a smooth dim all the way out to 0. 

Cree was about on par with the Feit. The Hyperikon were the worst of the bunch being not particularly linear at the bottom end and would cut off somewhere closer to 20%. 

 

See the linked videos for reference.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZwSQmvjAJqXt6YiUA

https://photos.app.goo.gl/36CNEYuyhZ9Z7Yuk6

[Banichi]

To update my last post. I did install in the phillips trims but while they weren't as bad they still flickered. Though notably they don't flicker when I trigger the scene from admin console, only when triggered with a device/button. I'm wondering if the default "1 retry" on scenes is causing a weird collision.