Teken Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 11 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I little birdie ?. https://www.nokia.com/shop/en_us/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-paddle/ Thanks I was looking for the link! ?
MrBill Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 59 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: But these don't work with those hubs. That's correct. but don't forget there was no documentation to follow, it was reverse engineered, which was my point originally, it will be interesting to see how long it takes before the HA/pyinsteon community reverse engineers the new product.
Teken Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, MrBill said: That's correct. but don't forget there was no documentation to follow, it was reverse engineered, which was my point originally, it will be interesting to see how long it takes before the HA/pyinsteon community reverse engineers the new product. There's nothing to reverse engineer as the so called new product is using Insteon at the core. Now, whether or not they have added more to the protocol as was indicated ten years ago. Who knows . . . The only reason controllers don't know what something is - Is because cat / sub cat. This is why protocols like Z-Wave / ZigBee have always been utter sh^t because not a single company follows the published technical specifications! This is why everything in the world has some kind of standard because people were too stupid to do things with common sense. In 2021 Sigma does not enforce any company to follow or use all of the attributes. This is made even worse when you have people making controllers that also refuse to follow the same! How many people have experienced or like to see a piece of hardware automagically show up random nodes that can't possibly exist like a temperature sensor, analog I/O, energy, on and on??? ZigBee was even worse and this is why they will forever be left behind in the HA industry because their protocol continues to be utter sh^t. Might as well rewind and go back using X-10 and the clapper . . . ? Edited July 23, 2021 by Teken
upstatemike Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: I little birdie ?. https://www.nokia.com/shop/en_us/smart-lighting/nokia-smart-lighting-paddle/ I must be blind. I still don't see the word relay anyplace on that page. It does say to be careful when using an exhaust fan to be sure the switch is in on/off mode and not dimming mode but it still just looks like the triac switching on/off with the dimmer disabled.
Teken Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 1 hour ago, MrBill said: That's correct. but don't forget there was no documentation to follow, it was reverse engineered, which was my point originally, it will be interesting to see how long it takes before the HA/pyinsteon community reverse engineers the new product. In case anyone wants to know why I stated this belief - same everything. Again, the only fly in the ointment is if they decide to update the protocol which has no baring on this FCC filing as it has no relations to emissions. This also doesn't address a controller not knowing the Cat / Sub Cat to define what this hardware is. Given any existing hardware can be directly linked to the same its obvious the core protocol is there. Family-models-declaration-letter-4657459.pdf
apostolakisl Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Teken said: Might as well rewind and go back using X-10 and the clapper . . . ? My daughter bought a clapper and she loves it. I didn't even know they still made it. Showing my age, but I remember that awesome commercial they had with the old lady slapping her hands as she rolled over in bed. Classic. Anyway, I'm really not sure what to make of this Nokia deal. Is this going to go anywhere? Is it going to sabotage Insteon or advance it? Will Nokia devices link with ISY and Insteon devices? Curious that they combined relay and triac into the same switch. They cost more money than Insteon.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 41 minutes ago, upstatemike said: I must be blind. I still don't see the word relay anyplace on that page. It does say to be careful when using an exhaust fan to be sure the switch is in on/off mode and not dimming mode but it still just looks like the triac switching on/off with the dimmer disabled. They don't use the word triac either but it's a given that a triac is being used for dimming. The fact that they are saying to make certain dimming mode isn't enabled tells me they aren't simply increasing the speed to mimic a relay.
Teken Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 13 minutes ago, apostolakisl said: My daughter bought a clapper and she loves it. I didn't even know they still made it. Showing my age, but I remember that awesome commercial they had with the old lady slapping her hands as she rolled over in bed. Classic. Anyway, I'm really not sure what to make of this Nokia deal. Is this going to go anywhere? Is it going to sabotage Insteon or advance it? Will Nokia devices link with ISY and Insteon devices? Curious that they combined relay and triac into the same switch. They cost more money than Insteon. Devices manually will link to one another whether there is correct status feedback - don't know. As noted early on all controllers will need to know the new Cat / Sub Cat to include into their database if to operate correctly and seen as the appropriate device. The letter I appended here moments ago affirms nothing has changed at the core level and this is just another brand name using the same RF / Power Line. Again, I can't offer any insight as to whether this new Nokia platform will use the v3 update as was indicated more than ten years ago! If I am a betting man - no . . . Then again I would love to be made wrong as this would incorporate some of the new features long asked for! For the record I've never owned a clapper but was around them when I was young. It was like pure magic seeing how a simple clap could turn on, off, open something.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Teken said: Devices manually will link to one another whether there is correct status feedback - don't know. As noted early on all controllers will need to know the new Cat / Sub Cat to include into their database if to operate correctly and seen as the appropriate device. The letter I appended here moments ago affirms nothing has changed at the core level and this is just another brand name using the same RF / Power Line. Again, I can't offer any insight as to whether this new Nokia platform will use the v3 update as was indicated more than ten years ago! If I am a betting man - no . . . Then again I would love to be made wrong as this would incorporate some of the new features long asked for! For the record I've never owned a clapper but was around them when I was young. It was like pure magic seeing how a simple clap could turn on, off, open something. You can add them to the Isy or any controller now without any work. It would show up as an unsupported device. You'd be able to control it as it uses the same commands but wouldn't receive status from them. Feature wise, you wouldn't be able to change the modes from dimmer to relay, update the firmware, or adjust light levels the way you would if the controller actually knew about it. Manually connected to another insteon device, the paddle would always be a relay and the dial a dimmer. With the keypad, you wouldn't be able to change the button for the load, change modes (relay/dimmer), nor firmware updates. Most likely, any new features will be geared towards the avg user not power user wish lists. Maybe down the road (waaay down the road), but it's not something I'd hold my breath for.
Techman Posted July 23, 2021 Posted July 23, 2021 2 hours ago, apostolakisl said: My daughter bought a clapper and she loves it. I didn't even know they still made it. Showing my age, but I remember that awesome commercial they had with the old lady slapping her hands as she rolled over in bed. Classic. Anyway, I'm really not sure what to make of this Nokia deal. Is this going to go anywhere? Is it going to sabotage Insteon or advance it? Will Nokia devices link with ISY and Insteon devices? Curious that they combined relay and triac into the same switch. They cost more money than Insteon. This is the disclaimer for the Nokia product line. Smartlabs manufactures and sells the above products and accessories, under a brand license from Nokia. Products are not available in all countries. Nokia is a registered trademark of Nokia Corporation. Nokia is not the manufacturer, importer, distributor or retailer. All the information published for these products at www.nokia.com/shop and MyNokia social media channels and/or Smartlabs’s own web channels is provided by Smartlabs who is solely responsible for the accuracy of that information.
carealtor Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 23 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: You can add them to the Isy or any controller now without any work. It would show up as an unsupported device. You'd be able to control it as it uses the same commands but wouldn't receive status from them. Feature wise, you wouldn't be able to change the modes from dimmer to relay, update the firmware, or adjust light levels the way you would if the controller actually knew about it. Manually connected to another insteon device, the paddle would always be a relay and the dial a dimmer. With the keypad, you wouldn't be able to change the button for the load, change modes (relay/dimmer), nor firmware updates. Most likely, any new features will be geared towards the avg user not power user wish lists. Maybe down the road (waaay down the road), but it's not something I'd hold my breath for. None of that gives me the warm fuzzies. Would be really hard to justify saying that these devices work with ISY.
Michel Kohanim Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 I am not sure how ISY can link to these without a PLM. With kind regards, Michel
lilyoyo1 Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 51 minutes ago, carealtor said: None of that gives me the warm fuzzies. Would be really hard to justify saying that these devices work with ISY. I'm not saying they work with the Isy. Just stating what happens with an unsupported device 1
carealtor Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 47 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: I'm not saying they work with the Isy. Just stating what happens with an unsupported device Oh I know. Not shooting the messenger. ? 1
Michel Kohanim Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 My whole house is full of INSTEON stuff. As much as like the new style, I am probably going to migrate everything to Lutron. They've been around for ages, are very stylish, robust, and as far as I know, very up front with their customers and vendors of which we are one. In short, I'd rather be safe than finding myself in the same boat a few years from now. With kind regards, Michel 2
upstatemike Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said: My whole house is full of INSTEON stuff. As much as like the new style, I am probably going to migrate everything to Lutron. They've been around for ages, are very stylish, robust, and as far as I know, very up front with their customers and vendors of which we are one. In short, I'd rather be safe than finding myself in the same boat a few years from now. With kind regards, Michel I installed some Lutron Radio RA2 switches for somebody last summer and for all the good things I have heard about them I was not impressed. I was immediately put off by the fact that such expensive switches were not true rockers with distinct on and off but rather kind of mushy toggles that can be pressed anywhere. Also a bunch of them stopped working recently and were just flashing a code on the led bar. Tech support said it must be a load incompatibility (despite working fine for months). I sent someone out to troubleshoot and they fixed them by flipping the breaker off and back on. So not a fan of their tech support either. Not sure why these products are so popular. Edited July 24, 2021 by upstatemike
upstatemike Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Michel Kohanim said: I am not sure how ISY can link to these without a PLM. With kind regards, Michel It is interesting that Smarthome.com is still selling the Universal Devices ISY994i/IR PRO Controller - Insteon & IR Support on their website despite saying clearly within the description that a PLM 2413S is required to use it and also telling people that the PLM 2413S is discontinued. Are they planning to fulfill any orders knowing full well they will be returned as soon as the purchaser realizes they are unusable without the discontinued PLM? 1
lilyoyo1 Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 11 minutes ago, upstatemike said: It is interesting that Smarthome.com is still selling the Universal Devices ISY994i/IR PRO Controller - Insteon & IR Support on their website despite saying clearly within the description that a PLM 2413S is required to use it and also telling people that the PLM 2413S is discontinued. Are they planning to fulfill any orders knowing full well they will be returned as soon as the purchaser realizes they are unusable without the discontinued PLM? They actually aren't selling it. There's no link to purchase it, the link they do have takes you to Amazon and the zwave version. There is also a note in red on the webpage that states they are not selling it.
Techman Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 16 minutes ago, upstatemike said: It is interesting that Smarthome.com is still selling the Universal Devices ISY994i/IR PRO Controller - Insteon & IR Support on their website despite saying clearly within the description that a PLM 2413S is required to use it and also telling people that the PLM 2413S is discontinued. Are they planning to fulfill any orders knowing full well they will be returned as soon as the purchaser realizes they are unusable without the discontinued PLM? The ISY will work with Z-wave which doesn't require a PLM.
upstatemike Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said: They actually aren't selling it. There's no link to purchase it, the link they do have takes you to Amazon and the zwave version. There is also a note in red on the webpage that states they are not selling it. Well then they are facilitating the purchse of it by providing the link while knowing the PLM is not available. They could have removed the Insteon only versions and steered folks towards the models that support Z-Wave, but they didn't.
upstatemike Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 14 minutes ago, Techman said: The ISY will work with Z-wave which doesn't require a PLM. But they are providing links to versions that do not support Z-Wave.
lilyoyo1 Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 6 hours ago, upstatemike said: Well then they are facilitating the purchse of it by providing the link while knowing the PLM is not available. They could have removed the Insteon only versions and steered folks towards the models that support Z-Wave, but they didn't. The model that it links to is the zwave version so they are doing exactly what you claim they aren't doing. Besides, an existing user could potentially need a new one. All sales aren't always to new customers
lilyoyo1 Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 6 hours ago, upstatemike said: But they are providing links to versions that do not support Z-Wave. Had you taken an extra second to click the link, you would've seen that it takes you to the zwave version of the Isy. Your argument is null
upstatemike Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 1 hour ago, lilyoyo1 said: Had you taken an extra second to click the link, you would've seen that it takes you to the zwave version of the Isy. Your argument is null Fair enough. I went by the link labels in the page posted which shows tabs for both Z-Wave and straight Insteon versions. It was never an argument, just an observation.
MrBill Posted July 24, 2021 Posted July 24, 2021 11 hours ago, upstatemike said: It is interesting that Smarthome.com is still selling the Universal Devices ISY994i/IR PRO Controller - Insteon & IR Support on their website despite saying clearly within the description that a PLM 2413S is required to use it and also telling people that the PLM 2413S is discontinued. Are they planning to fulfill any orders knowing full well they will be returned as soon as the purchaser realizes they are unusable without the discontinued PLM? as pointed out they are not actually selling it (and daily readers of this forum will remember why).... however it's very interesting that they do in fact list it, they aren't required to even mention it, but for some reason they feel compelled to let there customers know about this option. If I was starting from scratch, like @Michel Kohanim my choice would likely be Lutron.
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