Insteon being discontinued?

[larryllix]

35 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

So, a composition of other things as I mentioned above. Time will tell.

 Depends on how you define HA. If A is for Automation, then you will always have niche controllers that offer a little more services. If A is for Alexa, then you are 100% correct. Actually, I think the boat has already left. 

And, it won't be an NS because NS does not define the type of things. 

With kind regards,
Michel

I am not sure what you mean by "type of things" but IMHO NSs do define the types of things. The Hue NS will not address the MagicHome bulbs and vice versa.

Obviously you mean something different than what I consider the amalgamation of each word??

37 minutes ago, Michel Kohanim said:

So, a composition of other things as I mentioned above. Time will tell.

 Depends on how you define HA. If A is for Automation, then you will always have niche controllers that offer a little more services. If A is for Alexa, then you are 100% correct. Actually, I think the boat has already left. 

And, it won't be an NS because NS does not define the type of things. 

With kind regards,
Michel

Yeah, at this point HA means all remote control things AND things that can be operated automatically. IMHO that is not what the term means, broken down into root word meanings but that is what has evolved from the masses. (yeah English evolution! You say it and I repeat it...it's a word now )

Fortunately, the Remote Control crowd produces things that are very useful in pure HA also. Sensors will be the shortcoming of these concepts.  What would an RCist do with a humidity sensor and a occupancy variable/switch/contact?

[lilyoyo1]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

You’re confusing standards with competition and wanting to gain market share while making profit. There are endless examples of racing to the bottom yet there are countless others that don’t.

All of the market leaders from Apple ~ Sonos continue to command a high premium for their wares. They don’t worry or bother to play in the $0.99 isles because there’s no profit in it!

The so called race to the bottom exists in almost every industry. If that wasn’t true how would the vast majority of bids not go toward the lowest bidder?!?

The space shuttle literally was built on the lowest bidder! Almost every major infrastructure from road, bridge, ship was awarded to the lowest bidder! Keeping in mind the obvious of meeting STANDARDS in those respective industries which we can ignore back room deals, I owe you a favour, etc scenarios.

You’re correct my analogy of Steel was to convey there are standards depending upon where the material is being used. For example Any firearm barrel used today follows the most basic standards of metal composition so the thing doesn’t explode in your hand when a projectile comes racing out - using industry standards.

The so called racing to the bottom is in large part simple competition. The Chinese have simply filled the gap where the public has a want / need. This has directly made the market leaders to do what?!?

Offer the same at a cheaper price!

Do you truly believe Crapple offered the first ever large screen phone because they are so smart?!?

No, because that idiot Steve Jobs of still alive would have kept the iPhone at 4” forever because he said anything bigger is stupid?!?

If he was still alive the iPad would also NOT exist and you guessed it. It’s because he truly believed that market segment was stupid?!?

Some more history for those who didn’t pay attention to the growth of Crapple.

The only reason Steve Jobs caved in and integrated the X86 Intel architecture is because his sh^tty computers had literally 0.001% of the global market. Never mind not even 1% of the North American market! He finally accepted that for his company to ever gain market share was to do what?!?

Follow the industry standard!

That was coupled with Tim following everything the industry was doing and using!

Think Microsoft Office!

Now, as of this writing CrApple indeed has a race to the bottom mentality like everyone else. They simply hide it and promote it differently to all of the less than bright iSheep!

Think every four generations of hardware still for sale?!?

Why??

Because it cost them nothing to produce five year old hardware and sell it at cellular companies from ATT, Verizon, Rogers, Bell, etc for $0.00 ~ 99.XX. Keeping in
mind this stupid company over night convinced the entire world and industry that nothing could be replaced from battery, memory, storage, video etc!!

This level of stupid has now been hidden in the guise of being green! So stupid believes they just parted with $1K for a phone and it doesn’t even come with any chargers, cables, headset?!?

Their race to the bottom is to give you less while taking more! The first time I saw and worked on that stupid over priced garbage can shaped computer they touted as the best blah blah. Only to turf it like that cheese grader turd they came out with I burst out laughing!

The clients I had to come on site to repair these turds were the a typical iSheep. I just laughed at the one guy who parted more than $15K on a garbage can and since it was made by the Apple Gods it had to be the best!

Yeah?!?

Than why am I here servicing this turd and going to charge you $5K? Oh I forgot because these people have more money than brains! $15K and this company only gives you 1 year warranty? Oh I guess he could have bought the $1K extended warranty because Apple hardware is just so awesome and reliable - not!

Racing to the bottom happens everywhere. This is proven each day by the three domestic automakers that as of this writing continue to lead in every TSB / Recall since cars existed!

So racing to the bottom exists in various forms.

I'm not confusing standards with competition. You are as a bidding war is not the same as the race to the bottom. Bidding wars results from competition. 

Apple and Sonos are able to command a premium for their wares due to patents which both are highly protective of. 

You may want to quadruple check your sources about the iPad. He announced it back in 2010 but died in 2011. He was touting it as the laptop killer (my words not his).

Yes, the race to the bottom happens but that doesn't mean everyone will be on board. As I've said previously, a standard would create a have and have not world in regards to automation. Where those who want 1 standard will have 1 setup and those who want more, will have a proprietary system 

[Teken]

I'm not confusing standards with competition. You are as a bidding war is not the same as the race to the bottom. Bidding wars results from competition. 
Apple and Sonos are able to command a premium for their wares due to patents which both are highly protective of. 
You may want to quadruple check your sources about the iPad. He announced it back in 2010 but died in 2011. He was touting it as the laptop killer (my words not his).
Yes, the race to the bottom happens but that doesn't mean everyone will be on board. As I've said previously, a standard would create a have and have not world in regards to automation. Where those who want 1 standard will have 1 setup and those who want more, will have a proprietary system 

I don’t agree having standards will cause a have vs have not market. Mandating standards (think anything) has insured a predicable outcome, performance, reliability, etc.

If makers didn’t follow 120 / 240 VAC @60 Hz where the hell would anything be?!?

Since others mentioned so called EV’s this is a prime example of having standards! Right now there have been no less than ten fatalities as it pertains to Tesla so called AutoPilot.

Why?!?

Because like the iSheep there are people who truly believe sitting in the drivers seat is no longer a active process?!? You want to surf the web, watch a movie, go to sleep???

It’s called a passenger . . .

Those services called taxi, Uber, Lift, Bus, Train, Boat, Fairy etc exist for those who don’t want to be Active In the driving Process!

So every time I read how some imbeciles is nothing but a smudge in the road I laugh! Because they were too stupid to live and do the only thing their supposed to do - Drive!

We don’t have any real standards as it pertains to self driving vehicles because this technology is so new. This is made worse because those responsible for creating laws and standards are just dragging their feet.

Self driving vehicles is literally the dumbest thing that’s being pushed by companies.

Why?!?

Because they simply don’t grasp they can not ever compensate for stupid. The existing infrastructure also doesn’t offer enough support or capability to insure the tech works. Every time this same discussion comes up I always remind people self flying, self take off, self landing has existed in airplanes for ten years!

If this proven technology is so freaking great why isn’t everyone sitting in a plane with a computer at the helm?? Better yet the true litmus test if this is so great why doesn’t mommy & daddy put little Alice in a car, plane, train, boat and let the robot get from A-B???

The answer is quite clear because anything can and will happen and thus Human must be present to correct that what if!

The only reason Tesla and their likes have been able to allow stupid to use autopilot is in the guise of TOS, Eye ball check, and interval hand monitoring.

Which obviously doesn’t work because you guessed it no *standards* as to how to compensate for stupid! Who insists upon circumventing the need to be a active DRIVER.

The best thing to happen is to let more stupid people die if they choose to ignore the basic instinct of survival.

Standards matter, and would make so called auto pilot a real thing I could get on board with.

[asbril]

15 minutes ago, Teken said:

I don’t agree having standards will cause a have vs have not market. Mandating standards (think anything) has insured a predicable outcome, performance, reliability, etc.

If makers didn’t follow 120 / 240 VAC @60 Hz where the hell would anything be?!?

Since others mentioned so called EV’s this is a prime example of having standards! Right now there have been no less than ten fatalities as it pertains to Tesla so called AutoPilot.

Why?!?

Because like the iSheep there are people who truly believe sitting in the drivers seat is no longer a active process?!? You want to surf the web, watch a movie, go to sleep???

It’s called a passenger . . .

Those services called taxi, Uber, Lift, Bus, Train, Boat, Fairy etc exist for those who don’t want to be Active In the driving Process!

So every time I read how some imbeciles is nothing but a smudge in the road I laugh! Because they were too stupid to live and do the only thing their supposed to do - Drive!

We don’t have any real standards as it pertains to self driving vehicles because this technology is so new. This is made worse because those responsible for creating laws and standards are just dragging their feet.

Self driving vehicles is literally the dumbest thing that’s being pushed by companies.

Why?!?

Because they simply don’t grasp they can not ever compensate for stupid. The existing infrastructure also doesn’t offer enough support or capability to insure the tech works. Every time this same discussion comes up I always remind people self flying, self take off, self landing has existed in airplanes for ten years!

If this proven technology is so freaking great why isn’t everyone sitting in a plane with a computer at the helm?? Better yet the true litmus test if this is so great why doesn’t mommy & daddy put little Alice in a car, plane, train, boat and let the robot get from A-B???

The answer is quite clear because anything can and will happen and thus Human must be present to correct that what if!

The only reason Tesla and their likes have been able to allow stupid to use autopilot is in the guise of TOS, Eye ball check, and interval hand monitoring.

Which obviously doesn’t work because you guessed it no *standards* as to how to compensate for stupid! Who insists upon circumventing the need to be a active DRIVER.

The best thing to happen is to let more stupid people die if they choose to ignore the basic instinct of survival.

Standards matter, and would make so called auto pilot a real thing I could get on board with.

Teken, you lost me with your comments on self driving cars.  Obviously it is an evolving technology with misses and accidents at the beginning, but I see it as a great solution to urban transportation. In the future many of us (or more precisely our kids) will no longer own cars but just summon a self driving Uber . We already see the effect here in downtown Miami where new buildings have far fewer parking spots. Young couples have one car and use Ubers.

Now ......... Insteon is a different conversaton alltogether.

[upstatemike]

12 minutes ago, asbril said:

Now ......... Insteon is a different conversaton alltogether.

Insteon as a standard could be fine. It has the basic things you need: It has an address so you can talk to devices. Devices have memory registers to hold state information. Insteon defines a set of commands to read or change those registers. The combination of address scheme, register definitions, and commands constitutes a standard template. I'm not sure why you have to define a type for things really... if you just define what the registers are for and devices just use the registers that pertain to their function then things just kind of take care of themselves on that front. Unfortuntely Smartlabs, after establishing a standard, is the worst at following it, but in principle Insteon could work fine. 

Unfortunately Insteon is on its way to being discontinued and nothing else is really standing out as a great alternative.

[apostolakisl]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Insteon as a standard could be fine. It has the basic things you need: It has an address so you can talk to devices. Devices have memory registers to hold state information. Insteon defines a set of commands to read or change those registers. The combination of address scheme, register definitions, and commands constitutes a standard template. I'm not sure why you have to define a type for things really... if you just define what the registers are for and devices just use the registers that pertain to their function then things just kind of take care of themselves on that front. Unfortuntely Smartlabs, after establishing a standard, is the worst at following it, but in principle Insteon could work fine. 

Unfortunately Insteon is on its way to being discontinued and nothing else is really standing out as a great alternative.

I agree, Insteon is a great protocol.  The whole way the scenes, addressing, and nodes work is tremendous.  Insteon has had 3 problems.  1) Comm errors.  This has largely been fixed with dual band, but still there is some persistence.  2) Quality issues.  Again, largely corrected.  and 3) A business plan.  Or, shall I say a good business plan.  Not looking promising here.

[lilyoyo1]

1 hour ago, Teken said:

I don’t agree having standards will cause a have vs have not market. Mandating standards (think anything) has insured a predicable outcome, performance, reliability, etc.

If makers didn’t follow 120 / 240 VAC @60 Hz where the hell would anything be?!?

Since others mentioned so called EV’s this is a prime example of having standards! Right now there have been no less than ten fatalities as it pertains to Tesla so called AutoPilot.

Why?!?

Because like the iSheep there are people who truly believe sitting in the drivers seat is no longer a active process?!? You want to surf the web, watch a movie, go to sleep???

It’s called a passenger . . .

Those services called taxi, Uber, Lift, Bus, Train, Boat, Fairy etc exist for those who don’t want to be Active In the driving Process!

So every time I read how some imbeciles is nothing but a smudge in the road I laugh! Because they were too stupid to live and do the only thing their supposed to do - Drive!

We don’t have any real standards as it pertains to self driving vehicles because this technology is so new. This is made worse because those responsible for creating laws and standards are just dragging their feet.

Self driving vehicles is literally the dumbest thing that’s being pushed by companies.

Why?!?

Because they simply don’t grasp they can not ever compensate for stupid. The existing infrastructure also doesn’t offer enough support or capability to insure the tech works. Every time this same discussion comes up I always remind people self flying, self take off, self landing has existed in airplanes for ten years!

If this proven technology is so freaking great why isn’t everyone sitting in a plane with a computer at the helm?? Better yet the true litmus test if this is so great why doesn’t mommy & daddy put little Alice in a car, plane, train, boat and let the robot get from A-B???

The answer is quite clear because anything can and will happen and thus Human must be present to correct that what if!

The only reason Tesla and their likes have been able to allow stupid to use autopilot is in the guise of TOS, Eye ball check, and interval hand monitoring.

Which obviously doesn’t work because you guessed it no *standards* as to how to compensate for stupid! Who insists upon circumventing the need to be a active DRIVER.

The best thing to happen is to let more stupid people die if they choose to ignore the basic instinct of survival.

Standards matter, and would make so called auto pilot a real thing I could get on board with.

I feel like it'll be a have vs have nots since there well be limited desire to innovate beyond whatever a standard sets forth. Look at ZigBee and all the complaints people have from it. C4 uses a forked version of ZigBee and avoids the headaches that people talk about. Because they want to iterate and keep it desirable, they add stuff and improve on it regularly. Because of that look at what it can do compared to those systems who simply make devices based off the standard itself. Do you think any of them would take the time, money and effort to differentiate their products from one another?

This can be seen with zwave. All these products but what's different about any of them? Nothing really special. Sure, some might have the ability to change sentinal light colors but does any truly stand out?

You lost me with the rest of your post. You're much better than your present example. ?

[jc986]

 

I had seen the Matter project popping up in various places as I was wondering if Matter and Thread had departed significantly from the original architecture and data model proposed by the Zigbee Alliance. 

Alas, the answer appears to be no. They still appear to be dedicated to their data model driven architecture and I wonder if the data models will be allowed to be private and / or licensed content / product.

Am I the only one that thinks the feature(s) that (are) being ignored by ZWave, Zigbee, or any of the non-pro systems is coordination or true orchestration? Call it scene handling, command coordination, pick your description based upon your preferred method to achieve the requirement.

It appears that orchestration and more complex actions is simply not part of the ConOps for many of these systems.

If I'm going to use a motion detector to turn on the lights in a room I was to be able to control both the fade-up and fade-down times and I want all the lights/circuits involved to do so at the same time (coordinated).

The Insteon dimmer feature I most want replicated in another system is programatic control of the local "on" brightness level. Being able to adjust that up or down based upon sunrise and sunset time might not seem like a big deal until you can't adjust it.

 

 

[upstatemike]

8 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

I feel like it'll be a have vs have nots since there well be limited desire to innovate beyond whatever a standard sets forth. Look at ZigBee and all the complaints people have from it. C4 uses a forked version of ZigBee and avoids the headaches that people talk about. Because they want to iterate and keep it desirable, they add stuff and improve on it regularly. Because of that look at what it can do compared to those systems who simply make devices based off the standard itself. Do you think any of them would take the time, money and effort to differentiate their products from one another?

This can be seen with zwave. All these products but what's different about any of them? Nothing really special. Sure, some might have the ability to change sentinal light colors but does any truly stand out?

You lost me with the rest of your post. You're much better than your present example. ?

So I can't have innovative products because standards prevent innovation. And I can't have innovative products because the companies who ignore the standards and do their own thing are too expensive for people like me to afford. So no matter what I can't have innovative products.

[carealtor]

1 hour ago, asbril said:

In the future many of us (or more precisely our kids) will no longer own cars but just summon a self driving Uber .

Sucks for those of us who are car enthusiasts. 

[larryllix]

13 minutes ago, jc986 said:

 

I had seen the Matter project popping up in various places as I was wondering if Matter and Thread had departed significantly from the original architecture and data model proposed by the Zigbee Alliance. 

<snipped>

The ZigBee Alliance doesn't exist any more. They are now called the CSA = "Connectivity Standards Alliance.

[asbril]

8 minutes ago, carealtor said:

Sucks for those of us who are car enthusiasts.

I have a friend who owns a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Rolls Royce and a Bentley, and he had the same reaction as you when I voiced my opinion about the future of cars.  

 

BTW, and to stay on topic...... He has Control 4 in his homes.

[larryllix]

2 hours ago, asbril said:

Teken, you lost me with your comments on self driving cars.  Obviously it is an evolving technology with misses and accidents at the beginning, but I see it as a great solution to urban transportation. In the future many of us (or more precisely our kids) will no longer own cars but just summon a self driving Uber . We already see the effect here in downtown Miami where new buildings have far fewer parking spots. Young couples have one car and use Ubers.

Now ......... Insteon is a different conversaton alltogether.

Self driving cars will never happen in this century. Signal tracing wires in the roadways will need to be installed first. Telsa should be sued for using their misnomer "autopilot" . Telsa oweners will tell you it does nothing more than any other car with ACC, LKAS, and lane deviation.  Many people think this means self-driving. It doesn't. It is only driver assist. Other car manufacturers have told Tesla it is impossible without LIDAR and Telsa disagrees.

This all works by visual appearance of lines on the road. Lines can be covered by dirt, dust, or snow or may not have ever existed. Ours are repainted about twice per year. None of them can navigate an intersection properly. People think they can do something else while "autopilot" is engaged but typically the cars will warn you you cannot for an extended period. Mine will purposely go off the road into the ditch if you ignore the warning systems too long. Better than going into oncoming traffic though.

[asbril]

Just now, larryllix said:

Self driving cars will never happen in this century. Signal trarcing lines in the roadways will need to be installed first. Telsa should be sued for using their misnomer "autopilot" . Telsa oweners will tell you it does nothing more than any other car with ACC, LKAS, and lane deviation.  Many people think this means self-driving. It doesn't. It is only driver assist. Other car manufacturers have told Tesla it is impossible without LIDAR and Telsa disagrees.

This all works by visual appearance of lines on the road. Lines can be covered by dirt, dust, or snow or may not have ever existed. Ours are repainted about twice per year. None of them can navigate an intersection properly. People think they can do something else while "autopilot" is engaged but typically the cars will warn you you cannot for an extended period. Mine will purposely go off the road into the ditch if you ignore the warning systems too long. Better than going into oncoming traffic though.

I disagree, I foresee that  Express lanes will be  exclusive, at first, for electric vehicles and then self driving electric cars. I may not see it, but it will happen within 15-20  years. Technology can move fast. Just think where we were 20 years ago ----}  X10  !!!!

[larryllix]

1 minute ago, asbril said:

I disagree, I foresee that  Express lanes will be  exclusive, at first, for electric vehicles and then self driving electric cars. I may not see it, but it will happen within 15-20  years. Technology can move fast. Just think where we were 20 years ago ----}  X10  !!!!

At this point, yes exclusive lanes can be made and self-piloting cars could drive it. But when a corner or ramp comes...none can do it based on visual light cameras. There isn't enough smarts in any CPU to do that and not be fooled by some side glancing lights or reflection of headlights or reflective sign. Wrong sensors.

This is why I posted that.  A different sensor system of navigation needs to be created. GPS is not accurate enough and gets fooled by tall building reflections, anything visual can get fooled. Mapping system with massive details would have to be updated daily and cause many accidents in construction or even possible potholes or damaged guardrails and signs.

Until the governments get involved and the automobile companies foot the bill and agree it's not going to happen. There are self driving cars in private industry and they are all on some form of tracks.

[asbril]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Until the governments get involved and the automobile companies foot the bill and agree it's not going to happen. There are self driving cars in private industry and they are all on some form of tracks.

That is today....... I am talking about the day after tomorrow.

[upstatemike]

10 minutes ago, asbril said:

Technology can move fast. Just think where we were 20 years ago ----}  X10  !!!!

X-10 may not be popular anymore but it is not on the verge of being discontinued (like Insteon is).

 

[DAlter01]

7 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Self driving cars will never happen in this century. Signal tracing wires in the roadways will need to be installed first. Telsa should be sued for using their misnomer "autopilot" . Telsa oweners will tell you it does nothing more than any other car with ACC, LKAS, and lane deviation.  Many people think this means self-driving. It doesn't. It is only driver assist. Other car manufacturers have told Tesla it is impossible without LIDAR and Telsa disagrees.

This all works by visual appearance of lines on the road. Lines can be covered by dirt, dust, or snow or may not have ever existed. Ours are repainted about twice per year. None of them can navigate an intersection properly. People think they can do something else while "autopilot" is engaged but typically the cars will warn you you cannot for an extended period. Mine will purposely go off the road into the ditch if you ignore the warning systems too long. Better than going into oncoming traffic though.

Yes it will.  It will be here in less than 20 years.  It is very close.  And, there will become a societal push for it eventually, sad, but true.  It doesn't need wires in the roads.  It can be done with road mapping with GPS and point of reference overlays.  It isn't there yet but is coming.  Now, a snowy driveway that isn't mapped, that is another story.  Snow/hail, heavy rain, etc. the cars just will not run.  Those living in environments that have those conditions, maybe they have a hybrid vehicle.  But, since those situations are a minority by a large margin, most transportion will be by a driverless UBER type car.  That probably will not be in the 20 year mark except in dense urban areas but that is coming.  You will use an app on your phone to summon the vehicle.  It will come from a charging dock to wherever you are, pick you up, drop you off.  If a long trip, you will change vehicles from one with a battery being at low charge for a vehicle with a full charge.

[larryllix]

2 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

Yes it will.  It will be here in less than 20 years.  It is very close.  And, there will become a societal push for it eventually, sad, but true.  It doesn't need wires in the roads.  It can be done with road mapping with GPS and point of reference overlays.  It isn't there yet but is coming.  Now, a snowy driveway that isn't mapped, that is another story.  Snow/hail, heavy rain, etc. the cars just will not run.  Those living in environments that have those conditions, maybe they have a hybrid vehicle.  But, since those situations are a minority by a large margin, most transportion will be by a driverless UBER type car.  That probably will not be in the 20 year mark except in dense urban areas but that is coming.  You will use an app on your phone to summon the vehicle.  It will come from a charging dock to wherever you are, pick you up, drop you off.  If a long trip, you will change vehicles from one with a battery being at low charge for a vehicle with a full charge.

GPS is not used as it cannot provide the accuracy to keep a car in a lane.

[asbril]

6 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

X-10 may not be popular anymore but it is not on the verge of being discontinued (like Insteon is).

 

u r tough  

[DAlter01]

3 minutes ago, larryllix said:

GPS is not used as it cannot provide the accuracy to keep a car in a lane.

I don't think you read my entire quote about road mapping with point of reference overlays.  Currently GM is using this tech on select (mapped) roadways and Ford will start any day.  It works, I have one.  They have about 200,000 miles opened up.  tiny fraction, I know, but its coming to a city near you.  

[DAlter01]

1 minute ago, DAlter01 said:

I don't think you read my entire quote about road mapping with point of reference overlays.  Currently GM is using this tech on select (mapped) roadways and Ford will start any day.  It works, I have one.  They have about 200,000 miles opened up.  tiny fraction, I know, but its coming to a city near you.  

It is an entirely hands free experience.  They monitor your eyes to make sure you are awake and facing forward and you have your hands on the steering wheel occasionally but the car is doing all of the driving, lane changing, etc.

[upstatemike]

5 minutes ago, DAlter01 said:

...but its coming to a city near you.  

There are no cities near me. I am not interested in any technology that requires an urban environment to be viable.

[apostolakisl]

21 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Self driving cars will never happen in this century. Signal tracing wires in the roadways will need to be installed first. Telsa should be sued for using their misnomer "autopilot" . Telsa oweners will tell you it does nothing more than any other car with ACC, LKAS, and lane deviation.  Many people think this means self-driving. It doesn't. It is only driver assist. Other car manufacturers have told Tesla it is impossible without LIDAR and Telsa disagrees.

This all works by visual appearance of lines on the road. Lines can be covered by dirt, dust, or snow or may not have ever existed. Ours are repainted about twice per year. None of them can navigate an intersection properly. People think they can do something else while "autopilot" is engaged but typically the cars will warn you you cannot for an extended period. Mine will purposely go off the road into the ditch if you ignore the warning systems too long. Better than going into oncoming traffic though.

Yeah they will, this decade even.  Tesla has cars that see like people.  Just like a person they see the stripe when it is there, but they also see the curbs and the edge of a roadway.  They see objects that look like kids, dogs, bikes, etc and they recognize them as such.  They see signs of various shapes and colors and recognize them.   They don't require GPS maps to know where the road is because, of course, those things change from time to time.  The camera always see what is actually there.  Cars that drive by wires in the roads would be a horrible idea.  The billions of miles of roads in this world were designed for people to drive using their eyeballs and that is the only way AI is going to do it. And no, Tesla should not be sued for calling it autopilot, it is made quite clear when you buy the car what it can and can't do.  Perhaps we should all sue all the car companies for selling us automobiles, since, you know, the word automobile means it "mobiles" all on its own.  The same technology is going to be doing a whole lot more than driving cars.  Tesla is going to become so powerful that it will get broken up.  And this is from a guy who does not own a Tesla.  The other car companies are locking themselves into very rigid "rules of engagement" when it comes to driving.  Tesla is making cars that drive the way people do, but without emotion, distraction, and impairment.

[DAlter01]

2 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

There are no cities near me. I am not interested in any technology that requires an urban environment to be viable.

The self driving vehicle (GM) doesn't require a city, just a mapped road.  Lots of the mapped roads are highways and freeways in rural areas.  So, it may be near you already.  The App service, that is the one that will come to cities first and then eventually rural areas.