Hi. I have about 100+ Insteon devices deployed. I'd like to expand into getting smart on Z-Wave world, running in the same

network with my Insteon. In searching the internet there seems like there are many manufactures of Z-wave devices, but I'd

like to limit my use to a couple of top 3 vendors.

Is there common view on who the 'top 3' might be, i.e. most trusted, most robust, most invested in the platform, might be ?

Thanks in advance...

 

On 1/24/2021 at 8:11 PM, Zippy said:

Hi. I have about 100+ Insteon devices deployed. I'd like to expand into getting smart on Z-Wave world, running in the same

network with my Insteon. In searching the internet there seems like there are many manufactures of Z-wave devices, but I'd

like to limit my use to a couple of top 3 vendors.

Is there common view on who the 'top 3' might be, i.e. most trusted, most robust, most invested in the platform, might be ?

Thanks in advance...

 

It's been awhile since you posted your question but perhaps for someone else reading this.

I just started to do the same. I bought my first z-wave devices from Amazon at a very reasonable price. Much cheaper than buying Insteon from SmartHome.

GE Enbrighten Wall Switch Dimmer, Outdoor Smart Switch and Plug In smart Switch. They are all Z-Wave Plus.

https://products.z-wavealliance.org/regions/2/categories/16/products?company=356

I'm very impressed with the quality and construction of these devices. The in-wall dimmer is what a hard wired electrical device should be. 

I'll be converting over very slowly but so far I'm sticking with GE brand. They are made by Jasco. https://byjasco.com/

I started by replacing an Insteon wall dimmer that was failing. But, had to build a small z-wave mesh circuit in order to control a z-wave replacement given it's position in the house from the ISY. It only took one device in between to get a good signal to the wall dimmer.

Hope that helps a bit with your decision.

I don't know that I would be comfortable deploying Z-Wave, or any other routed mesh protocol, on the same scale that I have done for Insteon. A broadcast mesh with all devices repeating just seems a lot easier to maintain and troubleshoot. Routed mesh networks have not lived up to their promise of instantly self healing if there is a problem. They can take hours (or even days) to re-optimize themselves and sort themselves out after a device failure or other routing change. They also don't seem too smart about discovering better routes when new devices are added unless you manually force them to re-optimize. They will happily struggle along with a marginal connection even when a much better route exists unless there is a complete communication failure or some other event to force them to find a different path. They also are too chatty which means they don't scale that well and start to have more issues as your system gets bigger and there is more traffic to deal with. The most stable large scale Z-Wave installations seem to use multiple controllers with each device within 1 or 0 hops of the controller servicing it. Then there is the problem of adding a remote device in a Z-Wave installation. With Insteon you can add a device most anywhere but with Z-Wave you have to carefully build out the mesh until it can reach the remote location even if you don't actually need any devices in the intervening area. If the remote device is an outside lamp post with no place between it and the house to put a repeater then you are pretty much just out of luck.

7 hours ago, upstatemike said:

I don't know that I would be comfortable deploying Z-Wave, or any other routed mesh protocol, on the same scale that I have done for Insteon. A broadcast mesh with all devices repeating just seems a lot easier to maintain and troubleshoot. Routed mesh networks have not lived up to their promise of instantly self healing if there is a problem. They can take hours (or even days) to re-optimize themselves and sort themselves out after a device failure or other routing change. They also don't seem too smart about discovering better routes when new devices are added unless you manually force them to re-optimize. They will happily struggle along with a marginal connection even when a much better route exists unless there is a complete communication failure or some other event to force them to find a different path. They also are too chatty which means they don't scale that well and start to have more issues as your system gets bigger and there is more traffic to deal with. The most stable large scale Z-Wave installations seem to use multiple controllers with each device within 1 or 0 hops of the controller servicing it. Then there is the problem of adding a remote device in a Z-Wave installation. With Insteon you can add a device most anywhere but with Z-Wave you have to carefully build out the mesh until it can reach the remote location even if you don't actually need any devices in the intervening area. If the remote device is an outside lamp post with no place between it and the house to put a repeater then you are pretty much just out of luck.

Also, I've read here in the Forum that z-wave doesn't allow for large grouping ( 4 or less) either. Since I'm a newbie with z-wave not sure how that relates to scenes and if that's the same.

I think I have a relatively small or medium Insteon network so perhaps z-wave would still be suitable. Attached is what I have so far. It's interesting though about the z-wave quantity reported by the ISY Inventory Polygot. I only have 3 z-wave devices but it's reporting 14.

I'm in no hurry to switch over from Insteon, it's more or less just a curiosity at this point and I may continue to replace failing Insteon devices with z-wave if appropriate. Would like to see Insteon hardware more competitive and better packaging like I see with GE's (Jasco) z-wave. A new Insteon Modem would be nice too. My house is only 2400 sqft and my 3 device z-wave mesh already works from one end of the house to the other.

Many in this forum prefer Insteon over Zwave. The former allows for faster connection between devices and they also prefer the consistency of the sole manufacturer.

I switched to  Zwave only when my PLM quit on me and now, with some 80 switches, plug-ins, light bulbs, curtain control, sensors, etc,   I am quite happy with my mesh network. I sometimes wonder whether to go back and include a few Insteon sensors and switches to benefit from the faster connection with sensors, but the hassle of getting a PLM again keeps me away. Other than sensors, I have no complaints about my setup.

The advantage of the consistency of the sole manufacturer can also be seen as a negative, especially reading all the comments on Smarthome, which appears to be more absent than present. With Zwave you don't have this as there are many alternatives. @Zippy is right to limit himself to a few brands only, especially as different manufacturers use different settings which can be annoying, though newer Zwave devices now often come with auto-inclusion.

Personally I prefer the GE/Jasco and Homeseer devices for their performance and Inovelli for their novelty products. Unfortunately, it is also with Inovelli devices that I have most of my issues and I have this love-hate relationship with Inovelli.

Having read so many positive comments on Insteon,  even if my own experience is different, I believe that if you have a well working Insteon set-up, don't give up on it but when it comes to expansion, consider Zwave. However remember that for the Zwave mesh network to work, you should have sufficient devices throughout your home.  I always suggest plug-ins over repeaters to quickly improve your mesh network, because plug-ins (like most if not all non-battery Zwave devices) include a repeater AND are useful to control a lamp or something else.

1 hour ago, vbphil said:

Also, I've read here in the Forum that z-wave doesn't allow for large grouping ( 4 or less) either. Since I'm a newbie with z-wave not sure how that relates to scenes and if that's the same.

I think I have a relatively small or medium Insteon network so perhaps z-wave would still be suitable. Attached is what I have so far. It's interesting though about the z-wave quantity reported by the ISY Inventory Polygot. I only have 3 z-wave devices but it's reporting 14.

I'm in no hurry to switch over from Insteon, it's more or less just a curiosity at this point and I may continue to replace failing Insteon devices with z-wave if appropriate. Would like to see Insteon hardware more competitive and better packaging like I see with GE's (Jasco) z-wave. A new Insteon Modem would be nice too. My house is only 2400 sqft and my 3 device z-wave mesh already works from one end of the house to the other.

I prefer zwave sensors over insteon but that's about it. Zwave sucks for lighting but what bothers me may be ok with you. 

Zwave direct communication is limited to 4 devices. However, with an isy scene, you can add any number of devices. The downside to this is every device will turn off 1 at a time unlike insteon (popcorn effect and my biggest gripe). There are other issues but as I said before, what bothers me may not bother you. 

You're showing 14 devices due to the extra nodes that zwave creates for your devices. That's normal. I wouldn't worry about it. I am surprised you were able to cover things with just 3 devices. Since you're planning on adding more, you'll be fine long term. The downside with a small number is that should anything change or interfere, you could potentially have issues

 

My last word on Insteon vs Zwave.........   

Betamax was better than VHS, but VHS had more manufacturers and won.  Then a few years later Tivo replaced VHS....... Now Tivo is practically history as well.

I honestly believe that Zwave will outlive Insteon, and then something else will replace Zwave.

11 minutes ago, asbril said:

My last word on Insteon vs Zwave.........   

Betamax was better than VHS, but VHS had more manufacturers and won.  Then a few years later Tivo replaced VHS....... Now Tivo is practically history as well.

I honestly believe that Zwave will outlive Insteon, and then something else will replace Zwave.

It probably will but that's not saying much. X10 will outlive them all. ?

5 minutes ago, lilyoyo1 said:

X10

Stone Age of HA?

I have a Zerox box overflowing with x10 devices.  I am hoping that some home automation museum will want to display sometime. ?

Whenever I run across that box it reminders me of a Star Trek moviie where Bones and crew go back in time and he is in a hospital.  Sees this lady going into surgery and heals her with his tricorder.  How barbaric he mutters. 

X10.com is still selling stuff... I guess they aren't affected by the parts shortages. X10 may return to being a market leader in Home Automation because they are the only ones with products to sell.

If you look closely enough at my avatar, you will see a photo on one of my BSR plug-in modules that still works just fine.