Amazon Sidewalk.

[tazman]

For those that are not aware of Amazon Sidewalk you might want to read up and disable it. I thought it was shady when I read about it and I'm glad a coworker shared the link with me so I'm passing it on to others where it might be relevant.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/1002590964/your-amazon-echo-will-share-your-wi-fi-network-with-neighbors-unless-you-opt-out

[Brian H]

I saw that posted in the local news. It is enabled by default and you have to opt out.

[Mustang65]

About 2 months ago I read about this and it still is not displayed on my iPhone. I check each day. My son had it and deleted it. Strange!

 

[MrBill]

I find it funny that when Amazon does this it's publicized like it's a national emergency.

On the other hand... Apple essentially did the same thing with its new AirTags.  An AirTag can use any nearby iPhone to phone home the GPS coordinates of the AirTag.   Apple opted everybody in, and didn't even give a method to opt out.  For some reason no one even noticed.

Quote

If AirTag is separated from its owner and out of Bluetooth range, the Find My network can help track it down. The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately.

Do we trust Apple more than we trust Amazon? 

That said, I turned Amazon sidewalk off a few months ago when the setting first appeared in the app.  I'm not sure why I did. Maybe I do believe it's hackable, maybe I just don't want to study what it is and how it really works in detail.... i.e. an informed decision.  But with Apple there was no decision.

[jfai]

Can you spell F.U.D.? I am seeing all these "beware of Amazon Sidewalk posts - turn it off or the sky will fall", but none of them actually provides any solid, technical reason why having Amazon Sidewalk enabled should be concerning. Most of the articles basically say:

• Amazon is evil
• Sidewalk is a privacy issue, because your neighbors' devices are meshed with yours
• Sidewalk is a security issue, ditto
• Your neighbors are using your Internet connection for free

If you have an Amazon Echo or Ring device, being worried about any of the above reasons is akin to trying to put the ghost back into the bottle - you already invited Amazon into your network. Sidewalk traffic is strongly encrypted and capped at 500 MB per month - at most you're contributing 0.05% of your 1 TB Internet capacity per month to Sidewalk traffic. That's equivalent to about 15 minutes of your favorite Full-HD Netflix episode.

[larryllix]

I don't really care about any FUD. I don't want any company using my WiFi, LAN without me knowing. Let the neighbour realise the over hyped device they bought, doesn't function unless they "steal" bandwidth from somebody else or improve their own WiFi coverage.

What amazon is doing is sneaky and immoral. I never saw any notification or singed any release/permission  form.

Please don't defend or shill  the disgusting behaviour from these digital spy giants as they insert the thin end of the wedge into our privacy enclosures.

[tazman]

18 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I don't really care about any FUD. I don't want any company using my WiFi, LAN without me knowing. Let the neighbour realise the over hyped device they bought, doesn't function unless they "steal" bandwidth from somebody else or improve their own WiFi coverage.

What amazon is doing is sneaky and immoral. I never saw any notification or singed any release/permission  form.

Please don't defend or shill  the disgusting behaviour from these digital spy giants as they insert the thin end of the wedge into our privacy enclosures.

That is what I'm talking about right there. Why should I supply internet service for someone else device when I invested in my network for me. Same way internet providers want to supply hot spots on your internet service oh no not mine!

[jfai]

2 minutes ago, larryllix said:

I don't really care about any FUD. I don't want any company using my WiFi, LAN without me knowing. Let the neighbour realise the over hyped device they bought, doesn't function unless they "steal" bandwidth from somebody else or improve their own WiFi coverage.

What amazon is doing is sneaky and immoral. I never saw any notification or singed any release/permission  form.

Please don't defend or shill  the disgusting behaviour from these digital spy giants as they insert the thin end of the privacy wedge enclosure.

You are making my point about FUD...

Sidewalk isn't using your Wi-Fi and a neighbor cannot improve their Wi-Fi coverage through Sidewalk. Your LAN isn't used by Sidewalk in any different way than, say, your Internet provider is periodically checking your modem/gateway connection, without you knowing. 

I received at least two notifications by Amazon recently about opt-outs for Sidewalk, and those are just the ones I'm still remembering. I'm not defending anything that Amazon does, but I'm also not accusing them of anything immoral or sneaky, unless there is evidence. Do you have evidence that Amazon is spying on you with or without Sidewalk? I bet you do not even have an Echo or Ring device, and therefore your assessment of the capabilities of these devices is rather uninformed by personal experience.

Each of us has to weigh risk and capabilities of every connected device. Just connecting an Amazon device to my network doesn't make me a shill... Peace.

[larryllix]

On 6/10/2021 at 9:35 AM, MrBill said:

I find it funny that when Amazon does this it's publicized like it's a national emergency.

On the other hand... Apple essentially did the same thing with its new AirTags.  An AirTag can use any nearby iPhone to phone home the GPS coordinates of the AirTag.   Apple opted everybody in, and didn't even give a method to opt out.  For some reason no one even noticed.

Do we trust Apple more than we trust Amazon? 

That said, I turned Amazon sidewalk off a few months ago when the setting first appeared in the app.  I'm not sure why I did. Maybe I do believe it's hackable, maybe I just don't want to study what it is and how it really works in detail.... i.e. an informed decision.  But with Apple there was no decision.

Now it makes much more sense why  Amazon crippled the Alexa app for Win 10,  such that any Amazon device user must install the app on their mobile device.

I was told 50 years ago.
Don't trust big government
Don't trust big unions
Don't trust big companies.

Amazon has a bad reputation for "leaking" and distributing personal data, on several occasions. I was never notified of any Amazon Sidewalk anything. This is the first I have ever heard of it. Maybe they mixed it into 10 GB of other spam so nobody would notice??

[MrBill]

10 minutes ago, larryllix said:

Now it makes much more sense why  Amazon cippled the Alexa app for Win 10,  so that any Amazon device user must install the app on their mobile device.

I was told 50 years ago.
Don't trust big government
Don't trust big unions
Don't trust big companies.

Amazon has a bad reputation for "leaking" and distributing personal data, on several occasions. I was never notified of any Amazon Sidewalk anything. This is the first I have ever heard of it. Maybe they mixed it into 10 GB of other spam so nobody would notice??

The whole point of my post was Apple did the same thing with everyone's iPhone, and Apple didn't even give a way to opt out....

Crickets... no one is complaining about Apple pulling the same stunt but without an opt-out method.

If I thought Amazon Sidewalk would help me I'd probably leave it on, I don't believe it's a security threat-- but I only have limited information.   I have a bunch of Alexa's, No Ring tho, and I think all my Alexa's except one are too old to participate in "Sidewalk".   I don't know what my neighbors have or do I care.  And I can't imagine how my Amazon network would help them anyway.  To be Clear, sidewalk doesn't share my wifi, but does use some of my bandwidth bucket that isn't unlimited... although I never reach the bandwidth cap.    The CNET article I read sometime back (months) seemed to indicate the devices that might be using this most were Fitness Trackers and Dog Collars (a product I don't even think is on the market yet).  

I just find it hilariously funny that there is so much hype about Amazon Sidewalk right now when Apple does the same thing and not a single eye is batting...

[larryllix]

12 minutes ago, MrBill said:

The whole point of my post was Apple did the same thing with everyone's iPhone, and Apple didn't even give a way to opt out....

<snipped>

I just find it hilariously funny that there is so much hype about Amazon Sidewalk right now when Apple does the same thing and not a single eye is batting...

Agreed, but Apple peeps seem to expect and allow that "total control end to end", a little more than Android people do. Then there is those that think everything Internet is good for humanity, no matter what or whose  privacy they violate.

In the end, Amazon has just violated a huge personal security trust. They constantly attempt to grab your WiFi password "for your convenience, connecting future Alexa devices" and now they have installed your WiFi password into another person's equipment.

hmmmmm.... maybe my WiFi passwords need to changed every few months also. Where does it stop?

[MrBill]

15 minutes ago, larryllix said:

 and now they have installed your WiFi password into another person's equipment.

Except they haven't... Amazon Sidewalk does NOT USE YOUR WIFI.

[jfai]

11 minutes ago, larryllix said:

In the end, Amazon has just violated a huge personal security trust. They constantly attempt to grab your WiFi password "for your convenience, connecting future Alexa devices" and now they have installed your WiFi password into another person's equipment.

hmmmmm.... maybe my WiFi passwords need to changed every few months also. Where does it stop?

Amazon does not force you to use any of their devices, nor do they force you to use Sidewalk. Can you point me to the source of your claim that "they have installed your WiFi password into another person's equipment"? I thought this thread was about the FUD surrounding Amazon Sidewalk. Again, Sidewalk has absolutely nothing, zero, nada, to do with Wi-Fi.

If adding to the FUD about Amazon Sidewalk would stop, we may actually be able to discourse on Sidewalk objectively.

[tazman]

2 minutes ago, MrBill said:

Except they haven't... Amazon Sidewalk does NOT USE YOUR WIFI.

That is not what I understand from the article I linked above.

 

Amazon says the maximum bandwidth of a device on the Sidewalk server is 80 kilobits per second, or about 1/40th of the bandwidth used to stream a typical high-definition video. The total monthly data used by Sidewalk-enabled devices, per customer, is capped at 500 megabytes, which Amazon says is equivalent to streaming about 10 minutes of high-definition video.

[MrBill]

I'd suggest everyone take a moment to read this article..... it's the one I thought I read a few months ago... Apparently it was last September when Sidewalk was announced.

Sidewalk creates its own 900Mhz network.  IT DOES NOT USE YOUR WIFI for foreign devices.   Your Alexa connects to your Wifi yes... the Sidewalk mesh is in the 900Mhz band and is only other devices talking to your Amazon.  Your wifi password is NOT SHARED.

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-sidewalk-extends-your-network-but-security-is-already-in-question/

[tazman]

11 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I'd suggest everyone take a moment to read this article..... it's the one I thought I read a few months ago... Apparently it was last September when Sidewalk was announced.

Sidewalk creates its own 900Mhz network.  IT DOES NOT USE YOUR WIFI for foreign devices.   Your Alexa connects to your Wifi yes... the Sidewalk mesh is in the 900Mhz band and is only other devices talking to your Amazon.  Your wifi password is NOT SHARED.

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-sidewalk-extends-your-network-but-security-is-already-in-question/

The second article in your link says

 

But Sidewalk isn't just for your outdoor lights and other smart home devices: It's for everybody's gadgets. If your neighbor uses a Sidewalk-enabled mailbox sensor that's in range of the Sidewalk bridges in your home, that sensor may very well use your network to connect to the cloud.

 

I agree it is not suppose to share your information but I think it does use your internet data for other peoples devices.

[Geddy]

Let's face it people...all the "big guys" like to talk about how important our privacy is, and they all tout that they do things better than the next guy, but at the end of the day so many of us blindly give information to so many companies that what's the point of privacy at this stage in the game?

I mean UD has a box in our house that's connected to the internet that while we hope/assume that it's private and encrypted enough that nobody knows when our lights are being turned on or off or when the garage opens or closes that it's all just a big game. How many of us have iPhones with Google Maps on it with location tracking available? Sure, maybe many of us in this forum subset of a very subset of the general public might take things a little further and actually turn a lot of tracking settings off, but really? Do you really? I mean I know having a young kid I like to know where he is so I rely on Apple's "Find My" to keep up with my child's location. How many of us have elderly parents that you've setup their phone that you can track their position? Come on...I know many of you have done it, or maybe thought about it.

Here's the issues I have with Amazon now being in this area...the others already occupy...

My ISP charges me for my internet service and holds me accountable for the traffic across said network. Now, I've gone the extra step of buying my own modem and router so I feel as though I can control my network. If I didn't and had to rent an ISP owned modem/router then they leave an additional wifi SSID open to other customers/users of same said cable system. Sure, they say I'm not responsible for the traffic over THAT network, but whose to say I'm not?

Now, Amazon wants to use 500MB of my monthly allotment to have a subnet open to smart devices that I might or might not already own sitting outside the range of my existing wireless network while also helping other Amazon customers as they are "near" my house. I don't know about you, but I haven't seen people walking around my neighborhood with their Echo devices in a wagon and a 1 mile extension cord laying around going back to their home so they'd be able to ask Alexa something while they walked by my beautify landscaped yard. 

No...the problem I have is that I'm PAYING for my ISP and if I did rent your modem why are you (EVIL ISP) benefiting from MY account by offering a hotspot for others to use? Amazon, why are you "stealing" my WIFI to give others access to the internet in front of MY HOUSE? 

Why can't I charge rent back to the ISP for them keeping an additional network open on my "home wires" that then connect back to their coax network? Why can't I charge Amazon rent on that 500MB/mo that they might use for others to access my network? I mean come on...I'm paying for the Amazon equipment (and paying an annual subscription for Ring video storage) and I'm paying for my ISP network connection. Why not think we shouldn't be able to charge it back to the companies that are piggybacking on what we're paying for?

Sorry...have had this bottled up for a while and just had to blow some steam off in the face of F.U.D. to consider the other options that we're missing out on.

It's kind of a moment of can't we all just get along? Why not share your network with your neighbor? Why not let somebody that might need to use that open hotspot to accomplish something? Well...it's because people can't be trusted. We all assume the worst in people and therefore people are bad and companies that try to make it better for others must also be bad because we don't want to help others.

Well, I'm thankful for this forum in that so many people are helpful to those that need help to understand the ISY and Polisy. I'm glad people helped me when I was starting out that I'm still here to try to help those that might just be starting out or those that have been here a while and just stumble from time to time that ask for help.

So I say if Amazon Sidewalk might help somebody that needs that extra little bit of wifi access while passing by my house let them have it. I just hope they're doing good things and not trying to hack my other neighbors wifi to make it look like I'm doing it!

Now...flame away...I'm ready! I've got thick skin and have zero fox given. So yeah...let's have fun and smile about life because we can for this moment enjoy what we have to comment/complain about.

Keep smilin'!

 

[larryllix]

51 minutes ago, MrBill said:

I'd suggest everyone take a moment to read this article..... it's the one I thought I read a few months ago... Apparently it was last September when Sidewalk was announced.

Sidewalk creates its own 900Mhz network.  IT DOES NOT USE YOUR WIFI for foreign devices.   Your Alexa connects to your Wifi yes... the Sidewalk mesh is in the 900Mhz band and is only other devices talking to your Amazon.  Your wifi password is NOT SHARED.

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-sidewalk-extends-your-network-but-security-is-already-in-question/

So now we discover Amazon devices are extending our LAN via a 900MHz network, giving access of our Internet service to neighbours and strangers passing by?

I will be sure to never purchase any of the newer Alexa devices. It seems they have installed this "network extender" in devices and then enabled it without user's awareness of the seriousness. I thought I didn't like the dirty dealings of amazon.ca before? I have already had it out with amazon a few times over false advertising, lying about shipping and other aspects of purchases, including some immoral  issues they are involved with.

It just keeps getting better with these guys.

[MrBill]

@GeddyYou've got my sentiment exactly.    The two reasons I turned off Sidewalk is because it can use a tiny slice of a resource that has a bandwidth cap, and because it doesn't benefit me I have Alexa devices, but no Ring, No Tile, and none of the dog collars that haven't started selling yet.  The resource it's using is not unlimited.  We never reach our cap today, but I don't need someone else giving away a slice of the pie that I purchased, especially when the network is of no benefit to me.

[hart2hart]

Not to lessen or devalue anyone else’s point and experiences, I received a sidewalk notification and turned it off. My dealings with Amazon have been nothing but positive.

[Teken]

I’ve looked in the App and don’t see this Sidewalk option? Is this just an American initial roll out before the big push?!? As it pertains to Amazon in general terms the company has provided me untold buying options and services.

My dealings with the company at a high level has been positive. Regardless, if and when this sidewalk feature comes to Canada.

I’ll be opting out as my network infrastructure is intended and meant for my family. My privacy and security is constantly being eroded and challenged. As such I don’t need another penetration point in the network that can be hacked and subverted.

Rock On . . .

[MrBill]

5 minutes ago, Teken said:

I’ve looked in the App and don’t see this Sidewalk option?

In my app (iOS) it's:  More > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk.

[Teken]

In my app (iOS) it's:  More > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk.

No dice . . .

[Teken]

In my app (iOS) it's:  More > Settings > Account Settings > Amazon Sidewalk.

No dice . . .

[MrBill]

2 minutes ago, Teken said:

No dice . . .

That appears to be the correct path.  Is that an older version of the iOS app or the Android app?   Asking because the center icon at the bottom changed a few versions ago on iOS, you may need to update your app...