GFIC Tripping

[jkraus]

Hi, I have a GFIC socket in my garage.  Downstream from the GFIC the wire goes to an outside outlet box (since outside that is why I have it on a GFIC circuit)  Inside that outside outlet I have for the socket an Insteon  outlet (2663-222), and plugged into that Insteon outlet is a fountain, so I can remotely control the fountain.  99% of the time it woks fine, but about once every month or two the GFIC flips. So any thoughts?

1) It may or may not be the Insteon socket that is tripping the GFIC, not sure

2) Maybe the Insteon sockets are not rated for outdoors

2) OK to have an insteon socket downstream from a GFIC?

4) worst case I could replace the Insteon socket with a normal socket and use "Insteon Remote Control Plug-in On/Off Module Outdoor"

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by jkraus

[Teken]

50 minutes ago, jkraus said:

Hi, I have a GFIC socket in my garage.  Downstream from the GFIC the wire goes to an outside outlet box (since outside that is why I have it on a GFIC circuit)  Inside that outside outlet I have for the socket an Insteon  outlet (2663-222), and plugged into that Insteon outlet is a fountain, so I can remotely control the fountain.  99% of the time it woks fine, but about once every month or two the GFIC flips. So any thoughts?

1) It may or may not be the Insteon socket that is tripping the GFIC, not sure <- You could test by cycling the Insteon outlet on and off to see what happens.

2) Maybe the Insteon sockets are not rated for outdoors <- Neither the outlet or plugin module is outdoor rated except for this hardware: https://www.smarthome.com/collections/insteon-outlets/products/insteon-2634-222-on-off-outdoor-module-dual-band

2) OK to have an insteon socket downstream from a GFIC? <- It would be GFCI protected for sure.

4) worst case I could replace the Insteon socket with a normal socket and use "Insteon Remote Control Plug-in On/Off Module Outdoor"

Thanks in advance for any thoughts

 

A GFCI can trip due to a surge / spike on the line besides detecting the 5~20 mA current flow. A pump no matter how small always has a surge current and thus can trip a GFCI. 

[MrBill]

What makes you think the GFCI isn't doing it's job?  that is tripping because there is a ground fault.

GFCI's are a very misunderstood electrical device.  A Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter is designed to shut the power off as soon as it detects a very small 6 milliamp imbalance of power.   What is an imbalance of power and how does it occur?  Briefly disregarding the 3rd ground pin the electric circuit consists of a "hot" and "neutral"... the power travels out in the hot, and back on the neutral.  A GFCI measures the power going each direction, when they are VERY EQUAL the power is allowed to flow.  As soon as the GFCI detects that just a few milliamps of electricity got loose and didn't come back on the neutral the GFCI shuts off the power.  It does that to protect people from getting shocked.  (Conversely, a circuit breaker has a different job, it protects the circuit from overload-- to much current-- which causes fires.)

Now that we know what a GFCI is, there are a number of ways to attack the problem but none of them are quick and easy.  First you could plug the fountain pump into a different GFCI elsewhere and let it run a long time, plug it and unplug it several times... if the other GFCI never trips, then likely your problem isn't the fountain pump.  Then there is that Insteon plug... you're correct those weren't designed to be used outdoors and moisture inside the unit may very well be the issue.  This is a hard one to test for tho.   The other problem could be a micro crack in the insulation of the wire going outside, whether it's in conduit or not, whether it goes underground or not.  But consider that a micro crack in the insulation might not leak any current until the area around it gets damp and conducts a little bit of electrical leakage.

Finally, it's not unheard of for the GFCI itself to be bad.  Especially if it's an older GFCI (those manufactured back in the 90's or before for example).  GFCI's also get less reliable as they trip more often, so if yours trips 12 times a year and has been tripping that way for 3 or 4 years... it might just be bad.

So as you can see, YES you have a component, or perhaps components that need to be replaced. figuring out which is the problem.... or task.

[Teken]

As noted up top neither the outlet / on-off modules are outdoor rated. One would ask how could that impact a person over the long run. Below is a thread which shows just a On-Off module attached to the wall in a well conditioned space.

The OP simply pulled the module from the wall and the entire case blew apart! ? A year later I too experienced the same thing from a brand new unit literally just plugged in for about 2-3 months.

As Mr. Bill noted simple condensation could be present inside of the electronics and thus causes the GFCI to trip. Moving forward you should try to document when this happens and what the temperatures are when this condition arises. It's common to see low temps at night where it drops to 10'C and moisture / dew will be present. Given, the outlet emits its own heat if the same is in an enclosed space the outdoor temp drops by ten degrees at night that's a recipe for moisture to be present.

Regardless, if the On-Off module can simply break apart in a well conditioned space what do you think will happen in freezing / baking summers to the plastic?? Lastly, the so called UV rating Insteon indicates is a complete joke.

If the UV level is rated from 1-5, five being the highest marine grade plastics. Insteon has to be at 1! ?

[larryllix]

I wouldn't think moisture would be a problem as the devices must consume a few Watts and therefore be slightly warmer than the environment. This keeps the % relative humidity well above the dewpoint. In our outside electrical equipment all metal boxes had a small 10-100 Watt heater that ran all year 'round and always kept wiring drier, and rust off the metal parts, over decades of Canadian weather. Some from the 1930s,  25Hz equipment.

However, splashing rain or snow inside the device could be a different matter.

Edited October 18, 2021 by larryllix

[jkraus]

Yea, happened last night when it rained (but rain is not always the culprit)

[Teken]

27 minutes ago, jkraus said:

Yea, happened last night when it rained (but rain is not always the culprit)

Its not a question of rain vs moisture being present. Depending upon where this device is (left in the open) in direct sun light and your environment. Condensation can and will build up so mitigation solutions must be present.

Whether the box is water tight, managed air flow, to moisture absorbers etc.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Teken

[upstatemike]

Not going to pretend I know the answer for your situation but I did have a similiar problem with a GFCI in my garage that was tripping from an Insteon switch. The switch along with an outside outlet were downstream from the GFCI. The outlet controls some outside lights but not the outlet. I swappped the GFCI and had the same problem. I swapped the Insteon switch and the problem stopped for awhile but then returned. I replaced the Insteon switch with a standard toggle to further isolate the cause and the problem stopped so it wasn't something else on the circuit. I changed the wiring so the Inseon switch was ahead of the GFCI while the outside outlet remains downstream from it (protected) and I have not had any further problems. This all happend last winter when the air was very dry.

I don't know if there are some situations where Insteon devices intermittently leak current to ground but that is what it looked like. I should have lifted the ground connection from the insteon switch before changing the wiring to see what that would do but I didn't think of it in time. I don't know what the actual cause of the problem was or if it relates to what you are seeing but just mentioning because it was another case of Insteon and a GFCI not getting along.

[larryllix]

17 minutes ago, upstatemike said:

Not going to pretend I know the answer for your situation but I did have a similiar problem with a GFCI in my garage that was tripping from an Insteon switch. The switch along with an outside outlet were downstream from the GFCI. The outlet controls some outside lights but not the outlet. I swappped the GFCI and had the same problem. I swapped the Insteon switch and the problem stopped for awhile but then returned. I replaced the Insteon switch with a standard toggle to further isolate the cause and the problem stopped so it wasn't something else on the circuit. I changed the wiring so the Inseon switch was ahead of the GFCI while the outside outlet remains downstream from it (protected) and I have not had any further problems. This all happend last winter when the air was very dry.

I don't know if there are some situations where Insteon devices intermittently leak current to ground but that is what it looked like. I should have lifted the ground connection from the insteon switch before changing the wiring to see what that would do but I didn't think of it in time. I don't know what the actual cause of the problem was or if it relates to what you are seeing but just mentioning because it was another case of Insteon and a GFCI not getting along.

Sounds like the Insteon switch may have a despiking cap to ground.  know the old bathroom vent fans would trip the GFCIs in bathrooms often. I think they (GFCIs) were desensitised some, a few decades back, and formerly neutral conductors with nicks in the insulation were often the culprit. Create some counterEMF spikes from the fan motor on/off and the insulation in the neutral conductors, along with shower moisture,  and drywall sanding dust, you have a hard to find GFCI testing circuit.

[kclenden]

11 hours ago, jkraus said:

Hi, I have a GFIC socket in my garage.

How old is the GFCI socket?  I have a similar setup, though the Insteon switch is ahead of the GFCI socket (inside the house), while the pump is plugged into the socket and outside.  It worked without a blip for 14 years then started occasionally tripping.  Replaced the GFCI socket four years ago and has been blip free since.  Replaced a friend's GFCI socket about a year ago because it started tripping regularly and she's had no problems since.  So as @MrBill says it's possible the GFCI outlet is bad, and the older it is the higher I would say the likelihood.

[jkraus]

I took out the Insteon outlet, and replaced with a regular power outlet.  If no problems then that was the culprit, if not will research further.  Thanks all!

[LFMc]

On 10/19/2021 at 9:32 AM, jkraus said:

I took out the Insteon outlet, and replaced with a regular power outlet.  If no problems then that was the culprit, if not will research further.  Thanks all!

I am running about 6 Insteon outdoor modules (PN 2642?) for many years and of course they are all downstream to GFIC units.  I have had 1 outdoor module fail in that time period. They are in the open and do get some rain on them.  I have had one GFIC get too sensitive and pop too often, so I replaced it and no more issues.  Just mentioning this because the Insteon outdoor modules do work well outside and communicate well. 

I would never put the indoor units outdoors.

Edited October 20, 2021 by LFMc

[jec6613]

15 hours ago, LFMc said:

I am running about 6 Insteon outdoor modules (PN 2642?) for many years and of course they are all downstream to GFIC units.  I have had 1 outdoor module fail in that time period. They are in the open and do get some rain on them.  I have had one GFIC get too sensitive and pop too often, so I replaced it and no more issues.  Just mentioning this because the Insteon outdoor modules do work well outside and communicate well. 

I would never put the indoor units outdoors.

On 10/19/2021 at 10:32 AM, jkraus said:

I took out the Insteon outlet, and replaced with a regular power outlet.  If no problems then that was the culprit, if not will research further.  Thanks all!

I also have a small pile of Insteon outdoor modules, they work flawlessly.  Regular old GFCI protected outlet, plug the outdoor module into it and pass the cord through the weatherproof in use outlet cover (which you have, right?

 

On 10/18/2021 at 6:49 PM, larryllix said:

Sounds like the Insteon switch may have a despiking cap to ground.

There's definitely something where if an Insteon switch has heavy moisture exposure, it will start tripping a GFCI.  It was a giant pain for me to learn to not mix a moist environment, GFCI, and an Insteon paddle, toggle, or outlet.  For me at least though, it would not trip an AFCI/GFCI breaker, so I just installed that and protected the whole circuit and forgot about it.

[apostolakisl]

My outdoor gfci trips every now and then as well.  Usually I can blame it on rain.  It takes very little to trip those things so just a few drops of water can leak a few milliamps of power to ground and it pops.  Mine trips so rarely, maybe 2 times a year, that I just reset it and move on.  Almost always after rain, but surprisingly, it may rain cats and dogs and be fine, and it may be a more normal rain and it pops.  I suspect it is wind direction.  If it were more frequent, I would go through all your connections and be certain they are water proof.  Sometimes they get a little weak and trip without appropriate cause.  Finally, be certain you know all the outlets that are on the gfci.  As you know, they daisy chain them and you may have an outlet somewhere with a bad device that you don't realize is on the gfci.  Long ago I lived in a house that had the master bath plugs on a gfci that was in the garage.  I guess they thought the $15 for a gfci was too high and instead they would pull all that extra wire and time to daisy chain it.

Question that came to mind is if you have a low voltage transformer.  Not sure if low voltage power leaking to ground would trip a gfci.  Being on the back side of the transformer may isolate it from the gfci.  Of course being 12v it would be a challenge to get injured.

[jkraus]

I took out the Insteon outlet and Still have the problem. Then covered the outlet with a plastic bag and so far it has not tripped again so I determined that it’s moisture in the outlet nothing to do with Insteon.  So I replace the total outlet with a new one with a brand new cover and we’ll see if that fixes the problem, if I go back to have an Insteon controlled outlet I will use the outdoor module. Thanks everybody for their suggestions

[larryllix]

1 hour ago, jkraus said:

I took out the Insteon outlet and Still have the problem. Then covered the outlet with a plastic bag and so far it has not tripped again so I determined that it’s moisture in the outlet nothing to do with Insteon.  So I replace the total outlet with a new one with a brand new cover and we’ll see if that fixes the problem, if I go back to have an Insteon controlled outlet I will use the outdoor module. Thanks everybody for their suggestions

I would attempt to measure resistance from both leads to the ground lead. ThenI would dry it out in the sunshine or use a slow heat source (furnace vent?)  and then attempt to measure the resistance again. If you are not an electrical guy with a good ohmmeter, then hook it up and test again...maybe install a plug and plug it into a GFCI circuit receptacle. Make sure it is well dried inside...maybe a day or two. Make sure it is grounded well and avoid touching the frame until proven good.

If that doesn't work, I would attempt to dip the whole thing in a good (over 80% pure) isopropyl alcohol or other dry cleaner and then dry it out. Test again. If you can disassemble it to do this, even better. The rinse may get rid of any dust that is giving the moisture a conductive medium to cling to.

Edited October 29, 2021 by larryllix

[mmb]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:19 PM, jkraus said:

I took out the Insteon outlet and Still have the problem. Then covered the outlet with a plastic bag and so far it has not tripped again so I determined that it’s moisture in the outlet nothing to do with Insteon.  So I replace the total outlet with a new one with a brand new cover and we’ll see if that fixes the problem, if I go back to have an Insteon controlled outlet I will use the outdoor module. Thanks everybody for their suggestions

I had the similar problem, so I removed the GFCI breaker and replaced it with a normal breaker, then installed a GFCI receptacle with a high current Insteon wall switch to control it. I haven't had a problem in years.

Edited October 30, 2021 by mmb